Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?

[John]

Diário de Notícias
25 May 2007

A 30 years old man, from Morocco, threatened to kidnap the three year old daughter of a woman who rents a coffee-shop at Fonte de Luzeiros, between Silves and São Bartolomes de Messines." and that the "kidnap threat was made, last Tuesday".

See how there was no actual attempt at kidnapping Carolina Santos, only a threat, and that it all happened after Madeleine was snatched, not four months beforehand.

But, wait there's more. The Diário de Notícias goes on to say that the woman "filed a complaint with GNR from Silves the next day, and was contacted yesterday by investigators from Polícia Judiciária, to whom she told what happened." The newspaper then said that after "Talking with local residents" they "found that the man in question is a street seller and a well known trouble maker."

So far from "never being questioned" the family was questioned by both the GNR and the PJ, and what's more everyone knows who was responsible for causing the trouble in the first place.

This incident appears to be down to a drunk Moroccan street vendor who got into argument with Carolina's father, a local cafe owner.

[Lyall]

The list originally provided by Sadie is an excellent indicator of child disappearances in Portugal.  What isn't know in most of these cases is whether the disappearances were down to accidents or abductions.

That said however, if a child had encountered an accident and fallen in a river or down a well the chances are that their remains would be found at some stage.  What the cases depicted above all have in common is that no body or remains have ever been found.  Additionally, in some cases there are witness accounts of an abduction while in others, reported sightings of the children in another country.

We cannot state with certainty that any of the children were abducted but it certainly looks like it.

But Madeleine isn't Portuguese, and all this data true or not is irrelevant.

None of the cases listed are of children in the country for just a few days on holiday.

There's no relevance in Sadie's obsession at all. It's just smearing Portugal because it suits some people here to do so.

[John]

But Madeleine isn't Portuguese, and all this data true or not is irrelevant.

None of the cases listed are of children in the country for just a few days on holiday.

There's no relevance in Sadie's obsession at all. It's just smearing Portugal because it suits some people here to do so.

The missing children have all disappeared in unexplained suspicious circumstances.  Do you want to sweep this under the carpet?

 

[AnneGuedes]

I was referring to the discrepancy between what appears on the PJ site (and which seems to be the basis for your analysis of only 3 missing children in 10 years) and the recent DN article that I had posted above, indicating that there are 54 unresolved cases of missing children in Portugal, of which 35% (19 cases) are parental abductions.

Minors who weren't taken from a parent by their other parent are minors who flew away from institutions. If they were properly missing they would be listed on the PJ site.
What you attempt to do from your armchair, Carana, has a name, it's safe defamation of the Portuguese authorities.

[Lyall]

The missing children have all disappeared in unexplained suspicious circumstances.  Do you want to sweep this under the carpet?

Of course not and Carana is of course right to say it's silly to deny crimes occur in Portugal just like in any other country.

Of course they do but some people here - by only concentrating on Portugal - seek to portray the country as a paradise for kidnappers, and that's also equally silly (and xenophobic).

[Carana]

Minors who weren't taken from a parent by their other parent are minors who flew away from institutions. If they were properly missing they would be listed on the PJ site.
What you attempt to do from your armchair, Carana, has a name, it's safe defamation of the Portuguese authorities.

You still haven't clarified this post of yours, unless I missed it:



Quote from: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 10:18:56 PM

    The PJ site lists the persons reported missing.
    3 missing children in 10 years ! Since the Guinean little girl is supposed to have died in a car crash in Spain, though the PJ doesn't seem to believe it, perhaps 2,  one of them being Madeleine McCann, the only abducted one, the other one having been  abducted by her own father (and not from bed).


NB: What have I said on this thread that you consider to be "safe defamation of the Portuguese authorities"?

[AnneGuedes]

The missing children have all disappeared in unexplained suspicious circumstances.  Do you want to sweep this under the carpet?

Sure ! 

[AnneGuedes]

You still haven't clarified this post of yours, unless I missed it:



Quote from: AnneGuedes on March 07, 2014, 10:18:56 PM

    The PJ site lists the persons reported missing.
    3 missing children in 10 years ! Since the Guinean little girl is supposed to have died in a car crash in Spain, though the PJ doesn't seem to believe it, perhaps 2,  one of them being Madeleine McCann, the only abducted one, the other one having been  abducted by her own father (and not from bed).

What are you talking about ?

[Carana]

What are you talking about ?

I was asking you to clarify your post...

[AnneGuedes]

I was asking you to clarify your post...

Clarify your question first, please.

[ferryman]

Of course not and Carana is of course right to say it's silly to deny crimes occur in Portugal just like in any other country.

Of course they do but some people here - by only concentrating on Portugal - seek to portray the country as a paradise for kidnappers, and that's also equally silly (and xenophobic).

I recall a (slightly clumsy) headline in (from memory) the Daily Mail) describing Portugal as a haven for paedophiles (or some such).

I agree that was unfortunate, but was not (I don't think) intended to reflect any disparagement of Portuguese males; rather, that paedophiles in Portugal are, perhaps, less rigorously monitored in Portugal than in other countries.

Certainly, per head of its population, Portugal probably has about the same number of paedophiles as Britain, or most other countries of the world.

[sadie]

The above post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information.  If anyone disagrees with any of the information included please comment below.

Thank you John for the photos.  They greatly enhance the post. 



Such a pity that you couldn't have found a prettier picture and more recent one of Joana, rather than that earlier cut down one showing her helping her Mum with the pram.  She was almost always smiling or laughing.

I think that you must agree that in the Joana Cipriano case there is a great deal of evidence to undermine the findings of the PT Courts and that a good many people believe that she was NOT murdered as the Court found based on very dubious circumstances. 

To say the least, that case was unsafe and would NEVER have taken place in a truly Democratic Country which PT claims to be.  I believe, as many do, that Joana was abducted.

I believe she is on the group photo at Zinat with some certainty.... but I know that will be ridiculed !

I am keen that my observation that Rene Hasses disappearance / abduction in 1996 on Amoreias beach in the Algarve appears to link the northern abductions in the 1990's to the southern abductions, mainly in the 2000's, should be noted.


Because I think this indicates that the same man was involved in both lots of abductions, north and south.



NO other abductions apart from these tiny clusters in the north and south in the whole of PT.  And PT is very approximately two thirds the size of England.

To me, it seems that he (the abductor) carried on abducting just 5 years after the warning from the PJ ... but he took great care to change his Modus Operandi ... to try and hide that it was him again.

[sadie]

Total Bullshit.

Cheers Spam !   

[Lyall]

I recall a (slightly clumsy) headline in (from memory) the Daily Mail) describing Portugal as a haven for paedophiles (or some such).

I agree that was unfortunate, but was not (I don't think) intended to reflect any disparagement of Portuguese males; rather, that paedophiles in Portugal are, perhaps, less rigorously monitored in Portugal than in other countries.

Certainly, per head of its population, Portugal probably has about the same number of paedophiles as Britain, or most other countries of the world.

You notice I didn't use the word paedophile, but you did?

That kind of makes my point for me.

It's an unhealthy obsession.

[sadie]

Diário de Notícias
25 May 2007

A 30 years old man, from Morocco, threatened to kidnap the three year old daughter of a woman who rents a coffee-shop at Fonte de Luzeiros, between Silves and São Bartolomes de Messines." and that the "kidnap threat was made, last Tuesday".

See how there was no actual attempt at kidnapping Carolina Santos, only a threat, and that it all happened after Madeleine was snatched, not four months beforehand.

But, wait there's more. The Diário de Notícias goes on to say that the woman "filed a complaint with GNR from Silves the next day, and was contacted yesterday by investigators from Polícia Judiciária, to whom she told what happened." The newspaper then said that after "Talking with local residents" they "found that the man in question is a street seller and a well known trouble maker."

So far from "never being questioned" the family was questioned by both the GNR and the PJ, and what's more everyone knows who was responsible for causing the trouble in the first place.

This incident appears to be down to a drunk Moroccan street vendor who got into argument with Carolina's father, a local cafe owner.

Earlier reports had a different slant to them John, but according to the norm these days, they have been whitewashed out.

I wonder whi is hiding these things?  And why?