Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?

[Angelo222]

Your defence of a justice system which not only allows but encourages torture as a means of serving justice is also pretty nauseous. Are elements of the Portuguese police as prejudiced against suspected child killers as they are against black people? You really believe that the accused officers didn't use threatening behaviour or violence to obtain the result THEY wanted, not the truth?
Here is some more background to the latest case involving the police at Cova da Moura.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32419952

So wrong.  If the Portuguese justice system had condoned torture then those PJ officers who were prosecuted would have never been brought before the courts in the first place.  In fact, it says much for the Portuguese authorities that despite the country's Marxist past that they were prepared to stand up against such behaviour.

[Angelo222]

sadies reason for supporting Leonor and Joao is the same as her reason for supporting The Mccanns.

sadie is passionate about Justice and especially about the treatment that The Ciprianos received .  Like wise The Mccanns and Michael Cook

... and without a shred of doubt, sadie is passionate about what has happened to poor Madeleine and Joana.  But, both are almost certainly alive IMO.   And I have numerous pointers to say that, especially about Madeleine.


We will just wait and see.  Hopefully the end to this saga will come soon, with the safe return of both Madeleine and Joana

Whistling in the wind comes to mind.  The Ciprianos by their own acts and voluntary admissions were rightly found guilty of involvement in Joana's murder, they are an evil pair and should never be released from prison.  As for Madeleine, her fate remains unknown.

[Benice]

So wrong.  If the Portuguese justice system had condoned torture then those PJ officers who were prosecuted would have never been brought before the courts in the first place.  In fact, it says much for the Portuguese authorities that despite the country's Marxist past that they were prepared to stand up against such behaviour.

Surely the evidence from the Prison Governor herself in the LC case left the authorities with no alternative but to prosecute.      Had she agreed to 'play ball' with the PJ - they would never have been prosecuted IMO.

Even though the court found that LC had been tortured - her torturers are still walking around when they should be the ones in prison IMO.

A shameful state of affairs - in any country.

[Angelo222]

Please do not misrepresent me.
I believe the Ciprianos to be innocent, but I cant be sure.

What I can be sure of is that the so called evidence put forward by Amaral and Cristavao doesn't hold any water.  There was NO case against them that I could see ... just the stories from two, sorry to say it again, later Court proven Criminal Inspectors of Police.

These Officers even went so far as to state thatJoana went home and found her mother having sex with sibling brother.  Now how coukld they have known this.  The Courts IIRC disallowed this

Your belief is not based on the known evidence which you so readily disregard.  I suggest you do some further research in the case before making such ridiculous comments.

[sadie]

Your belief is not based on the known evidence which you so readily disregard.  I suggest you do some further research in the case before making such ridiculous comments.

WRONG again Angelo

Based on Court so called evidence.

[Angelo222]

Surely the evidence from the Prison Governor herself in the LC case left the authorities with no alternative but to prosecute.      Had she agreed to 'play ball' with the PJ - they would never have been prosecuted IMO.

Even though the court found that LC had been tortured - her torturers are still walking around when they should be the ones in prison IMO.

A shameful state of affairs - in any country.

I agree it was shameful conduct when they took Leonor out of prison and in the confines of a police station subjected her to torture by placing a paper bag over her head and hitting her with a cardboard tube.  That sort of conduct is unacceptable anywhere.

On the flip side, the police were trying to find an eight-year-old child who had disappeared and who they thought might be in dire danger or even dying.  By submitting Leonor Cipriano to torture they hoped to find out where she was hidden. I don't condone their behaviour but I do understand it.

[Angelo222]

WRONG again Angelo

Based on Court so called evidence.

The evidence is there for all to see.  A properly convened court understood it and found her guilty of murder.

[sadie]

The evidence is there for all to see.  A properly convened court understood it and found her guilty of murder.

Yep, upon "things" that Amaral and Cristavao "magicked up" and spouted as evidence.  Nothing backed them up.    There was absolutely NO SOUND EVIDENCE as anyone reading the report will know.

Of course there was the TORTURED OUT so called admissions and witness statement.  That is NOT EVIDENCE at all Angelo, as any civilized person will know and acknowledge.


Now, if you can show me some SOUND EVIDENCE, then I might change my mind.

AIMHO

[misty]

So wrong.  If the Portuguese justice system had condoned torture then those PJ officers who were prosecuted would have never been brought before the courts in the first place.  In fact, it says much for the Portuguese authorities that despite the country's Marxist past that they were prepared to stand up against such behaviour.

Did anyone in the justice system give evidence against the torturers? Were they jailed? Rhetorical questions.

[stephen25000]

Yet again. the Cipriano's confessed to the crime before the so called torture.

They also blamed each other.

They also kept changing their stories.

[Benice]

I agree it was shameful conduct when they took Leonor out of prison and in the confines of a police station subjected her to torture by placing a paper bag over her head and hitting her with a cardboard tube.  That sort of conduct is unacceptable anywhere.

On the flip side, the police were trying to find an eight-year-old child who had disappeared and who they thought might be in dire danger.  By submitting Leonor Cipriano to torture they hoped to find out where she was hidden. I don't condone their behaviour but I do understand it.

IIRC the claim is that LC confessed to murdering her child before she was tortured.

If that was true then IMO it doesn't make any sense at all that she would not also tell them where the body was at the same time. 

Why suffer hours of torture when she'd already admitted to the major crime.  Once she had done that then surely - full co-operation with the PJ would have been in her best interests.

I'm firmly of the opinion that the reason - despite hours of torture- that she did not tell them where the body was -  was because she didn't know where it was  - because her daughter had not been murdered.  That is the only reason which makes any sense IMO.

In the end she agreed to say whatever the PJ told her she'd done IMO.
That's what happens when people are tortured  - they will agree to anything to stop the pain.

And that is also why nothing they say or do can be regarded as credible - once torture has been established.
AIMHO

[stephen25000]

IIRC the claim is that LC confessed to murdering her child before she was tortured.

If that was true then IMO it doesn't make any sense at all that she would not also tell them where the body was at the same time. 

Why suffer hours of torture when she'd already admitted to the major crime.  Once she had done that then surely - full co-operation with the PJ would have been in her best interests.

I'm firmly of the opinion that the reason - despite hours of torture- that she did not tell them where the body was -  was because she didn't know where it was  - because her daughter had not been murdered.  That is the only reason which makes any sense IMO.

In the end she agreed to say whatever the PJ told her she'd done IMO.
That's what happens when people are tortured  - they will agree to anything to stop the pain.

And that is also why nothing they say or do can be regarded as credible - once torture has been established.
AIMHO

No matter what you say, she and her brother remain convicted murderers.

Do you really believe that murderers always admit their crimes ?

[sadie]

Yet again. the Cipriano's confessed to the crime before the so called torture.

They also blamed each other.

They also kept changing their stories.

According to two Police Inspectors who are now criminals and the lead one, Amaral, is a Court proven liar (Perjurer).

Stephen, you are intelligent.  How can you swallow the words of two such officers? 

Amaral and Cristovao say that Leonor and Joao confessed before the torture. 


So if they had already confessed, why did they torture them?


Think about it .... and a response would be appreciated .... you might even get me to change my mind


BTW, do you condone Torture?

AIMHO

[Benice]

No matter what you say, she and her brother remain convicted murderers.

Do you really believe that murderers always admit their crimes ?

Of course I don't.

However, can you come up with a reason why she preferred to suffer hours of torture -  rather than simply just tell the PJ where her child's body was - once she had confessed to her murder? 

[Eleanor]

Was there a written confession?  Signed and dated?