Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?

[stephen25000]

This has been done to death numerous times.

Now tell me who recorded the initial confessions.

As to the question on torture, I have answered that numerous times, NO I don't .

Now tell me Sadie, in the real world, do you actually seriously think torture will never happen ?

Have you also forgotten that families of prisoners, claimed that prisoners tortured Cipriano .

[slartibartfast]

Surely the evidence from the Prison Governor herself in the LC case left the authorities with no alternative but to prosecute.      Had she agreed to 'play ball' with the PJ - they would never have been prosecuted IMO.

Even though the court found that LC had been tortured - her torturers are still walking around when they should be the ones in prison IMO.

A shameful state of affairs - in any country.

She either suffered her injuries in Prison or in police custody. Unsurprisingly the Prison Governor said it didn't happen there.

[Brietta]

Yet again. the Cipriano's confessed to the crime before the so called torture.

They also blamed each other.

They also kept changing their stories.

I think you are wrong in that, Stephen, and I don't think I have ever seen any sort of official timeline for your claim.
Can you cite one for me, please.

I understood Leonor confessed after being tortured and immediately withdrew it as soon as she had access to a lawyer.

[sadie]

This has been done to death numerous times.

Now tell me who recorded the initial confessions.

As to the question on torture, I have answered that numerous times, NO I don't .

Now tell me Sadie, in the real world, do you actually seriously think torture will never happen ?

Have you also forgotten that families of prisoners, claimed that prisoners tortured Cipriano .

I am so glad that you dont condone torture, yet you are prepared to accept the results of a Court case which depended upon it for both the accused and the only so called witness, Leandro?

After the Court case, Leandro made sure he withdrew his so called witness statement.

Of course, unfortunately, there is some bullying within different Police Forces of the World, but NOT to that level, I would hope.

It is a sign of a Civilized Country that Court cases are run fairly and safely no matter the status of the individuals involved.  This Court case was completely unsafe, depending on torture and the totally unbacked ruminations/ stories of two crooked Police Officers.

Cos like it or not, both were Criminals ... and Amaral proved himself a liar when it pleased him, by committing perjury in the Portuguese Courts


Please prove me wrong.  I am listening , altho i might have to come back later.

AIMHO

[sadie]

She either suffered her injuries in Prison or in police custody. Unsurprisingly the Prison Governor said it didn't happen there.

The Prison Governor, Dr Ana Calado, and a very brave woman, was so appalled at Leonors bruised face and body that she arranged for a doctor to see her, photographs to be taken and she then reported it. 

She later wished that she had further photographs because as the days progressed the damage grew worse.  The blood above Leonors eyes was accumulating and affecting her sight.


Slarti, the Court ruled that the damage took place at the hands of the PJ.   Didn't you bother to read it?

[Benice]

She either suffered her injuries in Prison or in police custody. Unsurprisingly the Prison Governor said it didn't happen there.

I agree - not at all surprising that the Prison Governor would not accept liability for something which she knew didn't happen in her prison.

IIRC  the PJ did not pursue that claim, but decided on the 'fell down the stairs' option instead.  It seems even they drew the line at making allegations against a Prison Governor which she could no doubt prove from her records were untrue.

Good for her for not being drawn into a conspiracy to cover up the torture of one of her inmates by elements of the  PJ.     And imo it was that decision by her which made the prosecution of PJ officers unavoidable from the POV of the authorities.

All in my opinion of course.

[John]

I think you are wrong in that, Stephen, and I don't think I have ever seen any sort of official timeline for your claim.
Can you cite one for me, please.

I understood Leonor confessed after being tortured and immediately withdrew it as soon as she had access to a lawyer.

She took the blame for it and that is why she was remanded in custody while her brother João got bail.  She later claimed that she and João decided to sell the girl to strangers but that the exchange went badly wrong, later still she claimed that it was João who hit the girl and disposed of the remains thus why she was never able to reveal where the body was hidden.

It is immaterial imo who killed the girl as both Leonor and João were culpable.  I do agree however that his sentence should have been increased since he appears to be the leading character in this sorry tale with Leonor being very much under his control.

[John]

Some facts about Leonor Cipriano.

First, she claimed that she had seen who had assaulted her, but later she denied this. She said that there was a blue plastic bag over her head, but soon afterwards changed this to saying it was ‘green or blue’.

During the investigation into her allegation, she said that she had been assaulted ‘more than once’, but during the trial, she stated it that it happened only once. She said she knew the time of the beating - around 8.00pm - because she had looked at the clock in the room where she had been beaten. However, during the trial, she was asked to describe the room and did so without referring to any clock.

Despite having made a full confession before being convicted in 2005, she told the Court: “I don’t remember having confessed”, she told the court. Confessions are not admissible in court in Portugal unless the defendant repeats them in open court. Leonor Cipriano did repeat her confession during her trial in 2005. That makes it all the more strange that she changed her mind two years later, saying she didn’t remember having confessed.

Leonor Cipriano originally claimed she had been beaten by PJ inspectors, but when asked to pick them out of a line-up, she couldn't do so. She then changed her story to say that the PJ inspectors ‘must have arranged for another person or persons unknown to come into the police station and beat her’.   Later she changed her mind once again claiming she was beaten by the PJ but couldn't identify them because a bag was placed over her head during the beating.

Leonor Cipriano never previously alleged that Goncalo Amaral had personally laid a hand on her until the Court hearing in Faro. Yet, in the Faro court, Leonor Cipriano changed her story once again and alleged that Goncalo Amaral had hit her during the beating.

In her original statement, Leonor Cipriano said she knew the time the assaults on her took place because there was a clock on the wall in the room, and that it was approximately from 6.00pm to 8.00pm. Yet three of the named PJ inspectors accused of beating her were not even in the building at that time; they did not sign into the police station until 8.00 pm on the day in question.

At one point during the beating she claimed she was forced to kneel on broken glass. But there appears to be no record of damage to her knees or legs that would be consistent with such a serious incident. When originally asked by the Prison Governor at Odemira Prison to explain her injuries, Leonor Cipriano failed to implicate any police officers.

When Leonor Cipriano was asked in Court to give the names of the people she was accusing, she pulled a piece of paper out of her purse. A senior prison officer gave evidence that he was told by the Director of the Prison where Cipriano was being held (Odemira Prison), to change medical reports.

Leonor Cipriano denied that she ever had a female lawyer, however, she did have a female lawyer present when she made her original confession.

Little wonder therefore that she received an additional sentence for perjury.

[stephen25000]

Some facts about Leonor Cipriano.

First, she claimed that she had seen who had assaulted her, but later she denied this. She said that there was a blue plastic bag over her head, but soon afterwards changed this to saying it was ‘green or blue’.

During the investigation into her allegation, she said that she had been assaulted ‘more than once’, but during the trial, she stated it that it happened only once. She said she knew the time of the beating - around 8.00pm - because she had looked at the clock in the room where she had been beaten. However, during the trial, she was asked to describe the room and did so without referring to any clock.

Despite having made a full confession before being convicted in 2005, she told the Court: “I don’t remember having confessed”, she told the court. Confessions are not admissible in court in Portugal unless the defendant repeats them in open court. Leonor Cipriano did repeat her confession during her trial in 2005. That makes it all the more strange that she changed her mind two years later, saying she didn’t remember having confessed.

Leonor Cipriano originally claimed she had been beaten by PJ inspectors, but when asked to pick them out of a line-up, she couldn't do so. She then changed her story to say that the PJ inspectors ‘must have arranged for another person or persons unknown to come into the police station and beat her’.   Later she changed her mind once again claiming she was beaten by the PJ but couldn't identify them because a bag was placed over her head during the beating.

Leonor Cipriano never previously alleged that Goncalo Amaral had personally laid a hand on her until the Court hearing in Faro. Yet, in the Faro court, Leonor Cipriano changed her story once again and alleged that Goncalo Amaral had hit her during the beating.

In her original statement, Leonor Cipriano said she knew the time the assaults on her took place because there was a clock on the wall in the room, and that it was approximately from 6.00pm to 8.00pm. Yet three of the named PJ inspectors accused of beating her were not even in the building at that time; they did not sign into the police station until 8.00 pm on the day in question.

At one point during the beating she claimed she was forced to kneel on broken glass. But there appears to be no record of damage to her knees or legs that would be consistent with such a serious incident. When originally asked by the Prison Governor at Odemira Prison to explain her injuries, Leonor Cipriano failed to implicate any police officers.

When Leonor Cipriano was asked in Court to give the names of the people she was accusing, she pulled a piece of paper out of her purse. A senior prison officer gave evidence that he was told by the Director of the Prison where Cipriano was being held (Odemira Prison), to change medical reports.

Leonor Cipriano denied that she ever had a female lawyer, however, she did have a female lawyer present when she made her original confession.

Little wonder therefore that she received an additional sentence for perjury.

A precise analysis of the situation John.

[John]

A precise analysis of the situation John.

I think for anyone reading this, the chances of Leonor Cipriano being the innocent that some claim her to be are so remote that her guilt must be beyond any discernible doubt.

[stephen25000]

I think for anyone reading this, the chances of Leonor Cipriano being the innocent that some claim her to be are so remote that her guilt must be beyond any discernible doubt.

I agree.

Unfortunately John, some will still argue otherwise.

[Benice]

I think for anyone reading this, the chances of Leonor Cipriano being the innocent that some claim her to be are so remote that her guilt must be beyond any discernible doubt.

More to the point - anyone reading and believing that must be mighty puzzled as to how on earth a court ever  found that she had been tortured in the first place.    But they did!

You seem to have missed that rather large elephant in the room John.

[John]

More to the point - anyone reading and believing that must be mighty puzzled as to how on earth a court ever  found that she had been tortured in the first place.    But they did!

You seem to have missed that rather large elephant in the room John.

A court rightly found that she had been tortured, another court rightly determined that she was guilty and implicated in the murder of her daughter and furthermore had committed perjury.

A poor innocent woman she certainly is not.

[sadie]

She took the blame for it and that is why she was remanded in custody while her brother João got bail.  She later claimed that she and João decided to sell the girl to strangers but that the exchange went badly wrong, later still she claimed that it was João who hit the girl and disposed of the remains thus why she was never able to reveal where the body was hidden.

It is immaterial imo who killed the girl as both Leonor and João were culpable.  I do agree however that his sentence should have been increased since he appears to be the leading character in this sorry tale with Leonor being very much under his control.

There is NOTHING whatsoever to show that Joana is dead. 

But it is convenient to certain Police Officers that she be believed dead by the masses.


I believe that I may have two pieces of evidence that she is still alive.  However, I am not sharing them.

[stephen25000]

There is NOTHING whatsoever to show that Joana is dead. 

But it is convenient to certain Police Officers that she be believed dead by the masses.


I believe that I may have two pieces of evidence that she is still alive.  However, I am not sharing them.

You have already been given the evidence she is dead, but you ignore it. REPEATEDLY.

If you have 'evidence', then take it to the relevant authorities.

After all, failure to do so could hinder an investigation and I believe, render you an accessory.