Author Topic: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.  (Read 126185 times)

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Offline misty

Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1170 on: July 11, 2016, 01:25:47 PM »
It's how the world works now. Soundbites, spin, good tailoring and grooming have replaced solid debate undertaken by knowledgeable people based on facts.

Aren't the people we elected to represent us, as per our democratic society, supposed to be knowledgeable people & competent enough to provide the electorate with fact-based arguments for BrExit/Remain?
So many of the electorate went to the ballot box & voted with their hearts & not their heads because they were deprived of proper facts.

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1171 on: July 11, 2016, 01:29:28 PM »
Valid questions, but that's part of the issue, though, isn't it?

How many people had thoroughly investigated the issues and potential consequences prior to voting in one direction or the other?

More than you would want to accept. The majority have voted and I believe not for selfish reason, mostly based on communties and the impact of mass immigration and the impact on the economics of our country. Wave bye  bye  to 3 billion a year going to Turkey...and hello to Greece and Italy getting SFA for being in a bad state oh lets read about this...
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1172 on: July 12, 2016, 09:27:50 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jul/12/uk-scientists-dropped-from-eu-projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears


Britain’s vote to leave the EU has unleashed a wave of discrimination against UK researchers, with elite universities in the country coming under pressure to abandon collaborations with European partners.

In a confidential survey of the UK’s Russell Group universities, the Guardian found cases of British academics being asked to leave EU-funded projects or to step down from leadership roles because they are considered a financial liability.

In one case, an EU project officer recommended that a lead investigator drop all UK partners from a consortium because Britain’s share of funding could not be guaranteed. The note implied that if UK organisations remained on the project, which is due to start in January 2017, the contract signing would be delayed until Britain had agreed a fresh deal with Europe.

The backlash against UK researchers began immediately after the June referendum when the failure to plan for a post-Brexit Britain cast serious doubts over the chances of British organisations winning future EU funding. British researchers receive about £1bn a year from EU finding programmes such as Horizon 2020, but access to the money must be completely renegotiated under Brexit.

The 24 universities in the Russell Group are regarded as Britain’s elite institutions. With Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, University College London and Imperial College among their number, they are renowned for world-class research and academic excellence.

One leading university said anecdotal evidence that UK applicants were being dropped from EU bids came almost straight after the vote. Since then they had witnessed “a substantial increase in definitive evidence that EU projects are reluctant to be in collaboration with UK partners, and that potentially all new funding opportunities from Horizon 2020 are closing”.


Incidents reported by the universities suggest that researchers across the natural sciences, the engineering disciplines and social sciences are all affected. At least two social science collaborations with Dutch universities have been told UK partners are unwelcome, one Russell Group university said in the survey.

Speaking at Oxford’s Wolfson College last Friday, the university’s chancellor, Chris Patten, said Oxford received perhaps more research income than any European university, with about 40% coming from government. “Our research income will of course fall significantly after we have left the EU unless a Brexit government guarantees to cover the shortfall,” Lord Patten said.

The uncertainty over future funding for projects stands to harm research in other ways, the survey suggests. A number of institutions that responded said some researchers were reluctant to carry on with bids for EU funds because of the financial unknowns, while others did not want to be the weak link in a consortium. One university said it had serious concerns about its ability to recruit research fellows for current projects.

 
Some Russell Group universities declined to comment for the survey, and not all of those which did knew of any discrimination against their researchers. Though one university said concerns over the impact of the referendum had become a part of almost every conversation about research, their academics were continuing with funding applications as usual.



A week after the referendum, science minister Jo Johnson told academics and industry figures he had raised concerns over potential discrimination against UK researchers with the EU science commissioner, Carlos Moedas. Johnson has asked a team at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to gather evidence for discrimination and urged organisations to report any incidents. Until the UK left the EU, he said the situation was “business as usual”.

Others see it differently. Joe Gorman, a senior scientist at Sintef, Norway’s leading research institute, said he believed UK industry and universities would see “a fairly drastic and immediate reduction in the number of invitations to join consortiums”.

Only 12% of bids for Horizon 2020 funds are successful, a rate that falls by more than half in highly competitive areas. Given the low probability of winning funds at the best of times, Gorman said it was natural risk aversion to be cautious of UK partners. In many cases, British organisations will not have a clue they have lost out. “If you don’t get invited to the party, you don’t even know there is a party,” he said.

“I strongly suspect that UK politicians simply don’t understand this, and think it is ‘business as usual’, at least until negotiations have been completed. They are wrong, the problems start right now,” he added. As a former European commission official, Gorman oversaw research projects and now advises universities and companies on how to succeed in EU-funded research programmes.

According to Gorman, the UK government must make a clear and immediate statement on how Britain will take part in future EU projects from outside the union. “All the talk is about when negotiations will start,” he said. “We don’t want that. People want to know now what is going to happen. This could all be solved by one pronouncement from one minister.”

Another obstacle British researchers face is the potential bias, whether conscious or not, of the independent evaluators who score applications for EU funding. Xavier Aubry at Zaz Ventures, a consultancy that works with consortiums to win Horizon 2020 funding, said Switzerland was discriminated against at the evaluation stage after its 2014 referendum to restrict immigration.

Aubry’s firm operates a “no win, no fee” policy, which has left him second-guessing how the evaluators will respond to the Brexit vote. “Right now the problem is that we don’t know how the evaluators will react, he said.” “Even if they are briefed that they should not discriminate, they could have unconscious biases.”

As a result, he thinks British organisations will have to bring more to the table to justify the risk of them being included in a consortium. “We are becoming more strict,” he said. “But we are not telling people to stop working with the UK.”

Offline G-Unit

Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1173 on: July 12, 2016, 09:50:30 AM »
One thing the article failed to mention;

All ERC competitions for funding are open to top researchers from any country in the world, as long as they are committed to work at least half of their time in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Research_Council
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1174 on: July 12, 2016, 10:05:27 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jul/12/uk-scientists-dropped-from-eu-projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears


Britain’s vote to leave the EU has unleashed a wave of discrimination against UK researchers, with elite universities in the country coming under pressure to abandon collaborations with European partners.

In a confidential survey of the UK’s Russell Group universities, the Guardian found cases of British academics being asked to leave EU-funded projects or to step down from leadership roles because they are considered a financial liability.

In one case, an EU project officer recommended that a lead investigator drop all UK partners from a consortium because Britain’s share of funding could not be guaranteed. The note implied that if UK organisations remained on the project, which is due to start in January 2017, the contract signing would be delayed until Britain had agreed a fresh deal with Europe.

The backlash against UK researchers began immediately after the June referendum when the failure to plan for a post-Brexit Britain cast serious doubts over the chances of British organisations winning future EU funding. British researchers receive about £1bn a year from EU finding programmes such as Horizon 2020, but access to the money must be completely renegotiated under Brexit.

The 24 universities in the Russell Group are regarded as Britain’s elite institutions. With Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, University College London and Imperial College among their number, they are renowned for world-class research and academic excellence.

One leading university said anecdotal evidence that UK applicants were being dropped from EU bids came almost straight after the vote. Since then they had witnessed “a substantial increase in definitive evidence that EU projects are reluctant to be in collaboration with UK partners, and that potentially all new funding opportunities from Horizon 2020 are closing”.


Incidents reported by the universities suggest that researchers across the natural sciences, the engineering disciplines and social sciences are all affected. At least two social science collaborations with Dutch universities have been told UK partners are unwelcome, one Russell Group university said in the survey.

Speaking at Oxford’s Wolfson College last Friday, the university’s chancellor, Chris Patten, said Oxford received perhaps more research income than any European university, with about 40% coming from government. “Our research income will of course fall significantly after we have left the EU unless a Brexit government guarantees to cover the shortfall,” Lord Patten said.

The uncertainty over future funding for projects stands to harm research in other ways, the survey suggests. A number of institutions that responded said some researchers were reluctant to carry on with bids for EU funds because of the financial unknowns, while others did not want to be the weak link in a consortium. One university said it had serious concerns about its ability to recruit research fellows for current projects.

 
Some Russell Group universities declined to comment for the survey, and not all of those which did knew of any discrimination against their researchers. Though one university said concerns over the impact of the referendum had become a part of almost every conversation about research, their academics were continuing with funding applications as usual.



A week after the referendum, science minister Jo Johnson told academics and industry figures he had raised concerns over potential discrimination against UK researchers with the EU science commissioner, Carlos Moedas. Johnson has asked a team at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to gather evidence for discrimination and urged organisations to report any incidents. Until the UK left the EU, he said the situation was “business as usual”.

Others see it differently. Joe Gorman, a senior scientist at Sintef, Norway’s leading research institute, said he believed UK industry and universities would see “a fairly drastic and immediate reduction in the number of invitations to join consortiums”.

Only 12% of bids for Horizon 2020 funds are successful, a rate that falls by more than half in highly competitive areas. Given the low probability of winning funds at the best of times, Gorman said it was natural risk aversion to be cautious of UK partners. In many cases, British organisations will not have a clue they have lost out. “If you don’t get invited to the party, you don’t even know there is a party,” he said.

“I strongly suspect that UK politicians simply don’t understand this, and think it is ‘business as usual’, at least until negotiations have been completed. They are wrong, the problems start right now,” he added. As a former European commission official, Gorman oversaw research projects and now advises universities and companies on how to succeed in EU-funded research programmes.

According to Gorman, the UK government must make a clear and immediate statement on how Britain will take part in future EU projects from outside the union. “All the talk is about when negotiations will start,” he said. “We don’t want that. People want to know now what is going to happen. This could all be solved by one pronouncement from one minister.”

Another obstacle British researchers face is the potential bias, whether conscious or not, of the independent evaluators who score applications for EU funding. Xavier Aubry at Zaz Ventures, a consultancy that works with consortiums to win Horizon 2020 funding, said Switzerland was discriminated against at the evaluation stage after its 2014 referendum to restrict immigration.

Aubry’s firm operates a “no win, no fee” policy, which has left him second-guessing how the evaluators will respond to the Brexit vote. “Right now the problem is that we don’t know how the evaluators will react, he said.” “Even if they are briefed that they should not discriminate, they could have unconscious biases.”

As a result, he thinks British organisations will have to bring more to the table to justify the risk of them being included in a consortium. “We are becoming more strict,” he said. “But we are not telling people to stop working with the UK.”

some of us  understand brexit will bring some problems but think that overall it will be better than staying in a Union that is beginning to implode

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1175 on: July 12, 2016, 10:27:05 AM »
One thing the article failed to mention;

All ERC competitions for funding are open to top researchers from any country in the world, as long as they are committed to work at least half of their time in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Research_Council

So you think it is a good idea then, for the UK to lose grants for scientific research which could benefit us and the rest of the planet ?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1176 on: July 12, 2016, 11:15:09 AM »
This could well prove to be a brexit song for Cameron.



Offline G-Unit

Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1177 on: July 12, 2016, 11:30:53 AM »
So you think it is a good idea then, for the UK to lose grants for scientific research which could benefit us and the rest of the planet ?

Did I say that?

I said that EU grants don't appear to be limited to EU countries or EU citizens. Presumably they can still be applied for whether the UK is in or out?
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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1178 on: July 12, 2016, 11:43:20 AM »
Did I say that?

I said that EU grants don't appear to be limited to EU countries or EU citizens. Presumably they can still be applied for whether the UK is in or out?

Countries can apply, but there are conditions attached.


Offline G-Unit

Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1179 on: July 12, 2016, 01:23:09 PM »
Countries can apply, but there are conditions attached.

Cites?
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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1180 on: July 12, 2016, 01:29:13 PM »
Cites?

I was waiting for that. I already have some and anticipated your reply. *&*%£

I'll let you try first.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1181 on: July 12, 2016, 01:50:16 PM »
the fact is no one really knows what brexit will bring . I was looking forward to seeing a friend of mine...worked in business all over the world... now a senior university lecturer with a Phd in business studies. Currently lectures and lives  in Germany. I asked him what he thought was the best option...he replied he did not have enough information to make a valid judgement....unlike some of the experts on here

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1182 on: July 12, 2016, 02:07:24 PM »
So just to help, here is one cite G-Unit. There are a lot more.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2015/12/05/debunking-the-myths-about-british-science-after-an-eu-exit/

Debunking the myths about British science after an EU exit

A case study of Switzerland as a model for UK science outside the EU

Fortunately, this discussion is not purely hypothetical, but rather based largely on the precedent of Switzerland’s relationship with the EU science programme. Given Switzerland’s high competence in science, geographical location in Europe, non-EU status and political difficulties with issues of EU immigration – Switzerland is a helpful model for the UK’s re-negotiation of science programme membership following a Brexit:

Synopsis of the Swiss-EU science story

1. Switzerland is not a member of the EU but since 1992 has obtained full access to Framework Programmes, as part of agreements that also guarantee free movement of persons, contributing to the FP budget alongside other EU members.

2. In 2014, a popular vote to limit mass migration was passed by a margin of 50.3 to 49.7%

3. The Swiss government was then unable to commit to ratification of a free movement accord with Croatia.

4. Switzerland was suspended from access to Horizon 2020.

5. The Swiss government was forced to replicate at national level a temporary programme to replace immediate access to the ERC programme and subsequently negotiated limited access to H2020, with much reduced access to programmes, exclusion from the new SME Instrument and loss of ability to coordinate collaborative research within H2020. This is reliant on continued freedom of movement. Switzerland also funds Swiss participants in EU collaborative programmes directly at national level, requiring parallel domestic administration and an agreement to accept all funding decisions made in Brussels, effectively losing control of its national science budget.

6. The Swiss were also not included on Erasmus+. They chose to ensure continuation of the scheme by paying nationally both for students leaving and for those coming in (i.e. paying double what they would as a member of the international programme).

7. Negotiated access to H2020 will end in 2016, when Switzerland must either ratify the Croatia treaty or lose access to H2020 plus risk its bilateral trade agreements with the EU.

8. Switzerland must contribute to H2020 based on GDP and population and has no role in developing funding topics.

This case study of Switzerland represents an instructive set of circumstances for the UK with regard to Horizon 2020 access post-Brexit. Switzerland’s current participation is dependent on free movement. Should the UK leave the EU and restrict freedom of movement, it will have no access to Horizon 2020 beyond third country status (Afghanistan, Argentina etc.). However, as detailed further on, the sheer size of the UK causes problems for re-joining the EU programme after rejecting the EU.

The UK must consider that a withdrawal from the EU, followed by Horizon 2020 ‘buy in’ such as that of the Swiss model, will require continued EU budget contribution. Switzerland makes a contribution to the Horizon 2020 budget based on its GDP and its population, but the UK may have to pay more than its current contribution and/or accept limited involvement, due to its size, so as not to be so overtly disruptive (without the counter-balance of net contribution investment into less competitive regions). It will also have to follow Switzerland in creating domestic administration structures for programmes where it will fund UK participation in Horizon 2020 collaboration from domestic budgets. This has the double disadvantage of replicating a complete administration structure in the UK that operates on EU financial and legal rules without any role in creating those rules, and it must agree to a single evaluation decision made in Brussels to avoid damaging the partner-worthiness of UK participants with an additional UK level of evaluation.

The requirement to agree to implement funding decisions made in Brussels will ensure that the UK cannot control budget allocated to such collaborations. This creates a scenario in conflict with claims by anti-EU groups. The UK will still be contributing to EU science financially, it will have no control over domestic budget for collaborative research and it will have to sustain a parallel administration structure. This combination of factors means that the UK cannot make a simple financial calculation on financial contribution to EU science nor estimate how much it would retain to fund UK research post-Brexit.


Offline Admin

Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1183 on: July 12, 2016, 02:32:47 PM »
the fact is no one really knows what brexit will bring . I was looking forward to seeing a friend of mine...worked in business all over the world... now a senior university lecturer with a Phd in business studies. Currently lectures and lives  in Germany. I asked him what he thought was the best option...he replied he did not have enough information to make a valid judgement....unlike some of the experts on here

People make judgements based on their own experiences and circumstances.   The so-called experts who are paid large sums by our government have been found wanting in respect of several crucial issues already.  One man's expert is another man's folly.

I do agree though that nobody can foretell what a brexit future will bring as this is virgin territory.  The UK has survived on its own before and will do so again.  In my view, the advantages greatly outweigh any short-term disadvantages in relation to the vast majority of people in this wonderful country of ours.

Offline G-Unit

Re: UK votes for #BrExit from the EU. 52% Leave - 48% Stay.
« Reply #1184 on: July 12, 2016, 02:37:38 PM »
That's Switzerland. But the other countries can also apply, Pakistan, for example;

The European Union (EU) as a world leader in research and innovation has launched a Horizon-2020 programme in follow-up of similar previously implemented FP6 and FP7 programmes. It also allows significant funding to non-EU Member States, like Pakistan. Horizon-2020 programme is open for international participants to promote joint high profile scientific projects through collaborative consortia together with EU science and technology partners. For this funding opportunity, an impressive amount of € 79 billion is available worldwide for seven-year term, that is more than € ten billion per year.

All scientists and researchers in various organizations across the country are invited and encouraged to develop consortia with EU partners, prepare high quality research proposal(s) and submit to the European Union
http://www.psf.gov.pk/horizon_2020.aspx

What, if any, costs are applicable I don't know, but the Swiss approach is not the only possibility.
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