Amaral and the dogs

[Carana]

Who says that they didn't reach the lab?

There are several threads on this. Here's one:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1246.15

[ferryman]

Eddie was not desensitised to the scent of blood, Ferryman. This where confusion arises.

Agreed.

But Morse was ...

[jassi]

There are several threads on this. Here's one:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1246.15

Thank you. I shall read that later

[Brietta]

I believe you are correct, Brietta. Although Mr Grime owned both dogs, IIRC one of them had a different handler.

I meant cadaver dogs, Anna.  If one team's dog alerts to cadaver ... the next does a blind test if it also alerts in the same place it is corroboration.  Then the task is to locate the body and / or forensic evidence to bring to court.

[Brietta]

The Eddie and Keela combination was a half-way house to attainment of the optimal combination, realised with Keela and Morse partnership.

This was an innovation of the US forensic canine program that matched a cadaver dog, desensitised to blood, with a second dog trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost).

Moreover, by having a cadaver dog desensitised to blood, that (in theory) increased confidence that if a cadaver dog alerted, it had, indeed, detected cadaver scent.

That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the uncorroborated alerts of Morse were accepted as stand-alone  evidence of murder.

Morse also had very recent accredited independent training records in which he scored highly.

[Brietta]

Agreed.

But Morse was ...

I have read something somewhere about desensitising cadaver dogs from blood or maybe even just to desist from alerting to blood? ...I can't find any reference to it at the moment.

I'm not quite sure I can get my head entirely around it though.  No-one knows exactly what components of decomposition the 'body' dogs alert to ... and there are different scents from different stages in decomposition ... and all human decomposition has blood as a component.

[ferryman]

I have read something somewhere about desensitising cadaver dogs from blood or maybe even just to desist from alerting to blood? ...I can't find any reference to it at the moment.

I'm not quite sure I can get my head entirely around it though.  No-one knows exactly what components of decomposition the 'body' dogs alert to ... and there are different scents from different stages in decomposition ... and all human decomposition has blood as a component.

I don't know how you desensitise a dog to a specific scent.  But you can clearly train a dog not to bark and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark at specific times and to specific scents, but at no other time or scent.

How do you train a dog not to bark at cats (for example?)

You clearly can ...

And I'm sure you can desensitise a dog to the scent of blood ....

[mercury]

Uncorroborated cadaver dog alerts are not accepted as evidence precisely because cadaver dogs alert to blood.

Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.

[Anna]

I meant cadaver dogs, Anna.  If one team's dog alerts to cadaver ... the next does a blind test if it also alerts in the same place it is corroboration.  Then the task is to locate the body and / or forensic evidence to bring to court.

Sorry, Brietta, I misunderstood your post. I didn't know that they used two teams of cadaver dogs nowadays. Makes sense, I suppose.

[pathfinder73]

Agreed.

But Morse was ...

Rex A. Stockham, forensic canine program manager for the FBI, also testified about Morse on Wednesday. "I'm aware of no false positives for Morse," he said. "We've never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it's been shown to be incorrect."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html

An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee. The scent detection threshold of the dog is greatly enhanced.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.

Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.

He said: “His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.”

The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.

The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2010/02/sniffer-dog-detected-body-in-orkney.html

[ferryman]

Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.

I am precisely right in every last detail ...

[ferryman]

An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers

EVRD is a classification limited to Grime and Eddie.

[Eleanor]

An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers

EVRD is a classification limited to Grime and Eddie.

This is true.

[Carew]

Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.

Yes, Ferryman is wrong to keep stating this as fact.

[Carew]

I am precisely right in every last detail ...

No, you are not.