Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844608 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1590 on: July 29, 2015, 08:40:06 PM »
DL: At which point in time did you consider the McCanns to be suspects?

GA: Let’s see: In terms of suspicion, from the very first hour. The procedures in this type of case are to find out who the persons are, who the missing person is, in this case the missing child, and to find out all the antecedents.


http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/duarte-levy-at-which-point-in-time-did.html

Offline lordpookles

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1591 on: July 29, 2015, 08:43:29 PM »
I haven't read Amaral's book, but wouldn't it be bad police work in a case like this not to eliminate the parents and those closest as a matter of priority? At least that is what I have heard/read and actually wasn't it the British that initially encouraged the PJ to investigate the parents and tried to develop evidence against them?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1592 on: July 29, 2015, 08:56:19 PM »
None of that supports your contention that Amaral accepted abduction from the beginning to the exclusion of all other hypotheses.

I didn't say that. All hypotheses were investigated, including abduction. Why else follow up sightings? To fool everyone?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1593 on: July 29, 2015, 09:00:29 PM »
I didn't say that. All hypotheses were investigated, including abduction. Why else follow up sightings? To fool everyone?
So remind me again what mistake you think Amaral made?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1594 on: July 29, 2015, 09:01:10 PM »
I haven't read Amaral's book, but wouldn't it be bad police work in a case like this not to eliminate the parents and those closest as a matter of priority? At least that is what I have heard/read and actually wasn't it the British that initially encouraged the PJ to investigate the parents and tried to develop evidence against them?

I haven't read it either. What people forget is that it was proposing his hypothesis. The work done by the PJ was procedure; searching, investigating sightings etc. Obviously policemen have thoughts or suspicions about what happened, but they still have to investigate all possibilities.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1595 on: July 29, 2015, 09:08:54 PM »
Some people almost seem to want others to believe Amaral just made up lies. The PJ were told this by Mark Harrison, the expert search advisor that was brought in. Given that the PJ were uninformed about these types of dogs, I don't see how it is far fetched to reach certain conclusions (ie that the cadaver dog alerts pointed to a death)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2227.jpg



« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 09:14:49 PM by mercury »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1596 on: July 29, 2015, 09:18:56 PM »
I haven't read Amaral's book, but wouldn't it be bad police work in a case like this not to eliminate the parents and those closest as a matter of priority? At least that is what I have heard/read and actually wasn't it the British that initially encouraged the PJ to investigate the parents and tried to develop evidence against them?

I have read enough of Amaral'ls book to pick up the gist of how he formulated his theory of what Gerry (supposedly) did with the body of Madeleine.

He relates that he was called away by his distraught wife from a meeting in the early hours of the morning.  She had found the body of their pet dog with head injuries and she was distraught.  She tried to persuade him to drop the investigation but he calmed and reassured her, and convinced her he must carry on.

Then he tried to dig a hole to bury the corpse of his dog, but he found the ground hard to dig.

So he popped the corpse into the bin and the realisation hit him how much 'easier' it would to hide, rather than bury, a body.

That was it.  Gerry 'hid' Madeleine's body on the beach.

Amaral actually plagiarised the proper detective-work of Mark Harrison, who, himself, never entertained any such theory ....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1597 on: July 29, 2015, 09:25:24 PM »
444 no-body murder trials in the United States since the early 1800s but over 50% of them have occurred since 2000.

http://www.nobodymurdercases.com/blog.html

Extracts from No Body Murder Investigations by NCOF

‘No Body Murder Investigations’

It is essential in every case that a full review and assessment of the Missing Person Report is undertaken at the outset of such an investigation. The methodology for this review is identified in the paper entitled ‘Useful hints for Police Officers in Suspicious Missing Person Enquiries’. This template can be applied to any missing person report and challenges the reviewing person to answer a number of critical questions in relation to the missing person. It commences with a full victimology enquiry of the missing person followed by the exact circumstances of the disappearance, as indicated below.

Missing Person Report Review

The victimology enquiry should include details of the missing persons, age, sex, race, physical description, height, build, hair and eye colour. Details of any marks, scars, tattoos or body piercing or details of any operations or previous fractures. A copy of the missing person’s dental records is also required. Ascertain if the missing person is recorded on the National DNA Database and if not ensure that a sample of the missing persons DNA is obtained and placed on the NDNA Database as an unsolved crime scene stain. A full description of the missing persons clothing (including buttons, zips and labels) and jewellery worn by the missing person at the time of their disappearance. The lifestyle of the victim must also be analysed and should include, routines, associates, personality, activity at the time of disappearance, location of the last sighting, the victim’s relationship to that location, who they were with that day, and a comprehensive risk assessment of the missing person. Finally all intelligence regarding the area of the last sighting should be analysed for any previous incidents or intelligence regarding the crime profile of that area for any precursor incidents.

Body Disposal, Concealment and Search

Apart from ensuring his/her escape from the scene of a crime, the murderers greatest challenge is to avoid subsequent detection by disposing of the victim’s body.  The short-term aim may simply be to conceal the fact that a crime as been committed for long enough to guarantee a comfortable getaway, but the long-term aim is to prevent the body ever being found or identified.  That way the murderer’s chances of being forensically linked to a criminal act are greatly reduced. Research into murder cases has indicated that where there is an established relationship between the victim – missing person there is more concealed deposition of the body.

Secret burial is perhaps the most common method of a concealment of a corpse, but this too presents difficulties. Merely putting a body in a clandestine grave is no assurance that the grave will not be found, and that subsequent exhumation will not reveal evidence of foul play.  Clandestine burial frequently necessitates transportation of the corpse particularly if the murder was committed in an urban area. One of the greatest drawbacks to burial is that it is never possible to return all the soil to the original hole, with the result that there are visible signs of disturbance. The usual signs are that vegetation has been disturbed and differently coloured sub soil is brought to the surface, leaving a visible scar in the ground.  The shallow grave dug in haste or in ignorance of how deep a grave should be has led to the discovery of many graves. The time constraints of a suspect are often a hindrance to a suspect when attempting to complete a concealed deposition. The inadequately buried body is soon exposed by the weather or the activities of animals, particularly dog walkers and their pets. It is possible to locate such sites by the use of aerial imagery to identify such areas to instigate intelligence led searches. In force Air Support or JARIC (Joint Air Reconnaissance Intelligence Cell) directed by the Polsa Search Manager should be used to assist with the search.

Water disposal is also a widely used method of concealment.  It is also the one method that is the easiest to achieve without the expenditure of a large amount of energy and physical labour required to dig a hole in the ground. In most cases the victim - missing person will be wrapped in something, which in turn will be tied to weights to keep the body concealed under water. In all cases of missing persons who are suspected of being murdered, the nearest area for water disposal should be considered for an underwater search.  An offender’s background can influence the choice of a water deposition.

In a number of recent cases the body has been disposed of over a period of time in the ‘wheelie bin’, the body parts having been frozen in a domestic freezer within the premises.

It is also very wise to have the main drains searched as we have seen many bodies pushed into the drains within the curtilage of the property where the murder was committed. The Serial Killer Denis Nielsen who killed young males used this method of disposal.

In cases involving younger children the cavity required for a disposal is very much smaller. It is worth calculating the amount of space that would be required for a disposal and then ensuring that all such spaces are searched by a Polsa team.

‘The Legal Requirements’

A considerable number of murderers have believed and some still do that the corpus delicti is the body of the victim, and that without it a conviction for murder cannot be obtained. However, many would-be perpetrators have been made painfully aware that a missing body is not an obstacle to pursuing a charge of murder.

In these cases the body of the victim – missing person have not been recovered and there is no trace of the victim or the body despite a very thorough and extensive police investigation. Nevertheless, the police contend that the unlawful killing can be proved beyond all reasonable doubt through the circumstances of the disappearance, and the conduct of the accused both before and after disappearance. The questions of Motive, Opportunity, Preparatory Steps and subsequent actions of an accused should be considered in all cases.

Precedence has been established in law in England over recent years where persons have been convicted of murder in the absence of a body.  I quote, “Evidence supported by the accused himself is sufficient, the fact of death is also provable by circumstantial evidence, notwithstanding that neither the body or any trace of the body has been found. Before a defendant can be convicted, the fact of death should be proved by such circumstances as render the commission of a crime certain and leave no grounds for reasonable doubt. The circumstantial evidence should be cogent and compelling as to convince a jury that no rational hypothesis other that murder can the facts be accounted for. 

A crime has been committed

Which is illustrated by a series of thorough and extensive enquiries that there is no trace of the missing person and therefore no indication that the victim is still alive and living somewhere else. This fact can also be supported by the discovery of a crime scene, usually established by a forensic link of a victim to that location and to an offender. In many previous cases evidence of spilt blood and cleaning if forensically linked to a victim is very compelling evidence of a murder.

An offender exists

The connection of a suspect to the disappearance (motive, opportunity, preparatory steps and subsequent actions) and /or the circumstances surrounding the disappearance is so closely linked that inference can be properly drawn that they are connected to that disappearance.

In each case the accused is the last person to be seen with the missing person in circumstances that are themselves suspicious.

Charlotte Pinkney

DCI Tony Carney
Victim last seen in a vehicle with suspect in early hours of morning. Offender got vehicle stuck in mud at a local beauty spot. Body Dogs indicated that the victims body had been concealed near to where vehicle was stuck in mud. Offender moved the body prior to police search and it remains unfound. Forensic found in vehicle and on suspects shoes.

http://www.belui.ru/Doc/Mejdunar/Angl/17/No%20Body%20Murder%20Investigations.doc
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1598 on: July 29, 2015, 09:43:25 PM »
In the Charlotte Pinkney case, Grime claimed that Rose immediately admitted his guilt.

Rose was convicted after 12 hours of deliberation by a jury (because he pleaded not guilty!) and fully exhausted his allowed round of appeals ....

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1599 on: July 29, 2015, 10:04:09 PM »
Some people almost seem to want others to believe Amaral just made up lies. The PJ were told this by Mark Harrison, the expert search advisor that was brought in. Given that the PJ were uninformed about these types of dogs, I don't see how it is far fetched to reach certain conclusions (ie that the cadaver dog alerts pointed to a death)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2227.jpg

I think that needs to be viewed in the context of the brief Mark Harrison was given by the PJ

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1600 on: July 29, 2015, 10:06:58 PM »
I didn't say that. All hypotheses were investigated, including abduction. Why else follow up sightings? To fool everyone?

You did say that...you ignore the evidence...there is no evidence that amaral accepted the abduction theory...the evidence points to the fact he suspected the parents from a very early stage. The fact that amaral stated he could prove that maddie died in the apartment is proof he misunderstood the alerts yet you refuse to accept he was mistaken. This proves your beliefs are not based on the evidence but on your bias
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 10:09:09 PM by davel »

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1601 on: July 29, 2015, 10:08:59 PM »
I think that needs to be viewed in the context of the brief Mark Harrison was given by the PJ

Would any other context change what he states about the dogs? I doubt it.

Offline lordpookles

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1602 on: July 29, 2015, 10:12:36 PM »
I have read enough of Amaral'ls book to pick up the gist of how he formulated his theory of what Gerry (supposedly) did with the body of Madeleine.

He relates that he was called away by his distraught wife from a meeting in the early hours of the morning.  She had found the body of their pet dog with head injuries and she was distraught.  She tried to persuade him to drop the investigation but he calmed and reassured her, and convinced her he must carry on.

Then he tried to dig a hole to bury the corpse of his dog, but he found the ground hard to dig.

So he popped the corpse into the bin and the realisation hit him how much 'easier' it would to hide, rather than bury, a body.

That was it.  Gerry 'hid' Madeleine's body on the beach.

Amaral actually plagiarised the proper detective-work of Mark Harrison, who, himself, never entertained any such theory ....

Interesting theory. What I find incredulous is the notion that he stashed the body, called the world's media and then picked the body up a few weeks later and took it to another location, because this is what it would involve. Would take some balls and how would you know the body was hidden well enough for all that time whilst huge searches were taking place? I imagine there are many ways to conceal a body effectively such as weighing it down with stones and submerging in water and retrieving later. I've often felt quite suspicious of Amaral's involvement tbh concerning the dogs and his history... we are all guessing here though imo and one day perhaps we find out the truth. That's my main area of interest here to see this puzzle finally solved. Don't really care who did it as whoever did deserves to be punished. I think the McCanns should be given the benefit of the doubt given the information at hand otherwise of course they would be charged... and without the dog alerts there would be not much to debate imo.


Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1603 on: July 29, 2015, 10:13:09 PM »
Some people almost seem to want others to believe Amaral just made up lies. The PJ were told this by Mark Harrison, the expert search advisor that was brought in. Given that the PJ were uninformed about these types of dogs, I don't see how it is far fetched to reach certain conclusions (ie that the cadaver dog alerts pointed to a death)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2227.jpg

according to Harrisons  Maddie was murdered......do you think he was referring to her parents....

Amaral misunderstood the dog's alerts...simple...no lies. Furthermore having heard what Grime has said re the dog's he has not retracted his statement

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1604 on: July 29, 2015, 10:14:17 PM »
Would any other context change what he states about the dogs? I doubt it.

No, of course it wouldn't.

But it did shape the advice that he gave to the PJ ...