Amaral and the dogs

[Mr Gray]

As we know there is no proof otherwise we wouldn't be debating it to kingdom come.

I just go on two facts

Eddie does not alert unless he finds what he has been trained to find eg dead bodies,
and Grime's/Harrisons comments, eg

In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed

you seem to have a basic problem with logic...if there is no PROOF for something then it is not a FACT...

Grime use the words "may suggest"...he states nothing as a fact...you are 100% wrong yet again

[Mr Gray]

Yes, Grime said the alerts indicate cadaverscent contaminant.He put it simply enugh, personally I dont  see why anyone has a problem with that.

no he didn't...you are spreading lies again

[Mr Gray]

You don't need a body to confirm his alerts because it may not exist now. The perps would love that - search forever you ain't gonna find FA! There are many like Adrian Prout who lie and lie and lie to try and prove their innocence but Truth never lies. The proven dog, Eddie, in that case (and many others) alerted to death scent whatever anyone else claims. You either lie or you don't and spend the rest of your life in jail. So perps lie! Uncover the lies and you discover the truth.

What we have established is that the alerts cannot be confirmed without physical evidence. Any claim that the alerts in PDL prove that eddie was alerting to cadaver odour is an outright lie

[Alice Purjorick]

They certainly dug looking for bodies.

If it wasn't Eddie's alerts that prompted them to dig, what was it?

At the risk of being boring about the Wiltshire Police Inquiry:
It appears to this Inquiry that the only additional information obtained by DCO HARPER after that point, when he was so adamant that the search should not take place, was the opinion of a builder who conducted work on the building in 2003 and held a contrary view to a pathologist who, in 2003 when bones
were found at Haut de la Garenne, classified them as animal rather than human. It cannot be ascertained, in the absence of documentary records to assist us, why the view of this builder should have had such a profound effect on DCO HARPER, causing him to change his initial viewpoint.

The report also refers to historic accounts from witnesses, Ground Penetrating Radar and dog indications.

If however you choose to believe most of it is "window dressing" and it was all down to Eddie then OK. But that is not what the report says.

[Carew]

But PF Eddie could have been alerting to sausages and nappies and sticky plasters or socks with blood on planted  by the PJ and then remved inmediately before Eddie was sent in

 

The wonder is how investigators ever cope on site, what with non-stop alerts due to all the possible sources listed here, plus the unconscious cuing from handlers ,  over- excited undisciplined dogs either in play-mode ; reward- fixated mode or simply exhausted and alerting to get it all over with and go home.

 (Not to forget possible cross-contamination from cleaning - mops and dogs even alerting to their own slobber !)

Those seem to be  the latest.

The alerts, like the "reasons" for them, would be incessant.

[Mr Gray]

The wonder is how investigators ever cope on site, what with non-stop alerts due to all the possible sources listed here, plus the unconscious cuing from handlers ,  over- excited undisciplined dogs either in play-mode ; reward- fixated mode or simply exhausted and alerting to get it all over with and go home.

 (Not to forget possible cross-contamination from cleaning - mops and dogs even alerting to their own slobber !)

Those seem to be  the latest.

The alerts, like the "reasons" for them, would be incessant.

the simplest thing to do is to listen to what Grime..the expert..said...as I do

[Eleanor]

Basically, Eddie was flawed as a Cadaver Dog, which he actually wasn't.  Martin Grime saw a market and exploited it.
He then went on to train Morse in a far better fashion.  Sadly, he did a great deal of damage in the meantime.
Martin Grime understands semantics.  Most people don't.  Or they see what they want to see.
Although I suspect that Martin Grime got some help on what he did have to say.
I learned this art many years ago, so I can spot it a mile off.

[Brietta]

The wonder is how investigators ever cope on site, what with non-stop alerts due to all the possible sources listed here, plus the unconscious cuing from handlers ,  over- excited undisciplined dogs either in play-mode ; reward- fixated mode or simply exhausted and alerting to get it all over with and go home.

 (Not to forget possible cross-contamination from cleaning - mops and dogs even alerting to their own slobber !)

Those seem to be  the latest.

The alerts, like the "reasons" for them, would be incessant.

Glad to see you have been taking in all the posts explaining what some of the sources of residual scent may be, although you have missed many out ... but just as dog owners try to control the traditional doggy greeting of shoving a nose into a stranger's crotch as a means of introduction and sussing out who is who ... the dog handler trains his dog to know when he is 'working' and when not.

You may have noticed Martin Grime putting his dog in a sit or stay mode before either a hand signal or a verbal communication sets him off ... (the car park).
You may also have noticed him again putting the dog into sit or stay mode after a search ... (the villa and infamous cuddle cat scene).

Therefore just as the pet dog is taught to behave in polite company ... the working dog knows when he is on duty and when off.
Resulting in the lack of "incessant" alerting.

[pathfinder73]

Basically, Eddie was flawed as a Cadaver Dog, which he actually wasn't.  Martin Grime saw a market and exploited it.
He then went on to train Morse in a far better fashion.  Sadly, he did a great deal of damage in the meantime.
Martin Grime understands semantics.  Most people don't.  Or they see what they want to see.
Although I suspect that Martin Grime got some help on what he did have to say.
I learned this art many years ago, so I can spot it a mile off.

BS. Eddie is proven as a cadaver finding/detecting dog.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.

Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.

The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.

The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

[Carew]

The point is that many or most of the sources of "residual scents" listed are present at any given investigation site and are accessible to the dog when in work mode.

Whilst in "work mode" the dog is also susceptible to the other cues, handler expectations and sundry reasons for alerts which are trotted out regarding exhaustion, play and reward behaviour.

The point about why no incessant alerts under "work mode" or "on duty" conditions still stands, really.

[Brietta]

BS. Eddie is proven as a cadaver finding/detecting dog.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.

Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.

The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.

The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

Perhaps it would be pertinent to remember that Eddie had assistance in the search for Mr Rose's remains ...

A man accused of murder on an Orkney island led police to sand dunes where his alleged victim was buried, a court has heard.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8518464.stm

[Eleanor]

BS. Eddie is proven as a cadaver finding/detecting dog.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.

Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.

The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.

The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

You forgot to mention that the perpetrator told them where to look.

And bearing in mind that any dog can find a dead body if there is one, then this was not surprising.  This is why some dead bodies are found by ordinary Dog Walkers with no apparent training at all.

[Eleanor]

Perhaps it would be pertinent to remember that Eddie had assistance in the search for Mr Rose's remains ...

A man accused of murder on an Orkney island led police to sand dunes where his alleged victim was buried, a court has heard.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8518464.stm

Thanks for that, Brietta.  Someone was bound to ask me for a Cite.

[Brietta]

The point is that many or most of the sources of "residual scents" listed are present at any given investigation site and are accessible to the dog when in work mode.

Whilst in "work mode" the dog is also susceptible to the other cues, handler expectations and sundry reasons for alerts which are trotted out regarding exhaustion, play and reward behaviour.

The point about why no incessant alerts under "work mode" or "on duty" conditions still stands, really.

Which is precisely why the importance of finding out exactly what it is the dog is actually alerting to. 

He knows ... the investigators do not. 
Therefore any alert requires back up evidence to say what the alert may be ... whether that is in the form of human remains or a discarded tissue from a nosebleed.

[Mr Gray]

for all the thousands of posts on the dogs...and all the claims re there skills...the bottom linr remains...

Eddie may have alerted to cadaver odour...and then again he may have not...that statement is confirmed by what Grime said