Amaral and the dogs

[Anna]

Question: Was Eddie trained not to alert to wee-wee or to other accidents on laundry when in work mode or not? Had his clothing test been used before or not?

As Grime was never asked, no reply was given.

If Eddie was trained to ignore such accidents, ok, but then the next question is why Eddie alerted to two items of clothing: the blue shorts and the red airplaine T-shirt.

No explanation has been given as to why Eddie appears to have reacted to the blue shorts, yet the shorts weren't on the list establsihed or noted by the PJ. The red T-shirt does appear on the list, with no explanation as to the distinction.

Why didn't Grime keep a note of which clothing items corresponded to a correct alert? Or if he had, what did he do with it? If ever there had been a court case, he could have been asked to testify (if such evidence were allowed).

These cloths were apparently on a dirty garage floor before being boxed up again and taken to the Gym(if we are to believe his book)

Not sure about the urine......It does contain trace elements of putricine. The twins nappies and pants would have traces.

cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in very small parts, to the smell of urine.
Excerpt:
They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen, along with the related (and aptly named) polyamines spermine and spermidine, which are made by adding extra chains of three carbons, each ending with another amine group, to one or both ends of a putrescine molecule.

Clothing alerted too(all from one box, therefore in close proximity to each other).
I would have thought that there is a list somewhere, but it seems to have selected only a few. Reason ???

[pathfinder73]

What are you waffling on about? Eddie finds evidence of death not if a child has done a pee on the floor. No blood was on the clothes!

The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen, sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. (Martin Grime)

Big Letters for people who can't understand.

[Carana]

I believe it may be here, along with the kebab or meat on a bone, Carana. about 39.20

Many thanks, Anna.

I could no longer be sure about my recollections of searches of other apartments. I didn't dream this, after all.

The amount of times he was called away before finishing his sniffing expedition remains to be explained...

[Carana]

What are you waffling on about? Eddie finds evidence of death not if a child has done a pee on the floor. No blood was on the clothes!

The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. (Martin Grime)

We know that, PF. However, you are quoting his comments about KEELA, not Eddie.

Read the phrase that you didn't highlight.

Here we go:

The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose...

[pathfinder73]

You don't know that because you think Eddie is alerting to semen, urine, sweat and god knows what else which is not true! He will only alert to these substances if they contain BLOOD. No blood was on the clothes so the police know what he was alerting to.

[Carana]

You don't know that because you think Eddie is alerting to semen, urine, sweat and god knows what else which is not true! He will only alert to these substances if they contain BLOOD. No blood was on the clothes so the police know what he was alerting to.

Read above.

I think that you've got confused.

[Anna]

Search Asset Profile

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html

[Alice Purjorick]

yes I  do mean that...and it is what I posted

Well that is a revelation!

[Anna]

Keela

Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the
nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
Red cells 40-50%
Plasma 55% (of which 95% is water)
White cells ef
Platelets
DNA can only be removed from white cells.
This would suggest that, of the samples signalled by the dog looking for human blood, approximately 5% are available for DNA tests.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

[Carana]

These cloths were apparently on a dirty garage floor before being boxed up again and taken to the Gym(if we are to believe his book)

Not sure about the urine......It does contain trace elements of putricine. The twins nappies and pants would have traces.

cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in very small parts, to the smell of urine.
Excerpt:
They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen, along with the related (and aptly named) polyamines spermine and spermidine, which are made by adding extra chains of three carbons, each ending with another amine group, to one or both ends of a putrescine molecule.

Clothing alerted too(all from one box, therefore in close proximity to each other).
I would have thought that there is a list somewhere, but it seems to have selected only a few. Reason ???

Re the unpacking in the dirty garage... there seems to be an ambiguity in that due to lost-in-translation issues. The original doesn't actually say that the clothes were unpacked, but describes the situation as being where they were to be unpacked (i.e. intention). Whether they actually were or not, prior to unpacking in the gym is anyone's guess. No idea.

Amaral was in a restaurant at the time (according to his own account), so he wasn't actually there.

[Anna]

Re the unpacking in the dirty garage... there seems to be an ambiguity in that due to lost-in-translation issues. The original doesn't actually say that the clothes were unpacked, but describes the situation as being where they were to be unpacked (i.e. intention). Whether they actually were or not, prior to unpacking in the gym is anyone's guess. No idea.

Amaral was in a restaurant at the time (according to his own account), so he wasn't actually there.

Whether they were elsewhere before the Gym or not, does not really come into the question regarding Urine scent on garments and the close proximity of the alerted items in the Gym. Best we just ignore the book.

[Carana]

Whether they were elsewhere before the Gym or not, does not really come into the question regarding Urine scent on garments and the close proximity of the alerted items in the Gym. Best we just ignore the book.

It's not just the book. My earlier question was whether it had ever been established that Eddie had been trained to ignore wee-wee (or other irrelevant) mishaps.

Grime was never questioned about this.

So... there's no way of knowing one way or the other.

I still find it odd that he didn't have an established list of which clothes constituted confirmed alerts by Eddie...

Had these skills been successfully demonstrated before or was this a new potential one?

[Anna]

It's not just the book. My earlier question was whether it had ever been established that Eddie had been trained to ignore wee-wee (or other irrelevant) mishaps.

Grime was never questioned about this.

So... there's no way of knowing one way or the other.

I still find it odd that he didn't have an established list of which clothes constituted confirmed alerts by Eddie...

Had these skills been successfully demonstrated before or was this a new potential one?

I have already posted that, Carana.
Urine is a bodily fluid, is it not? And it contains a trace amount of putricine.

Search Asset Profile

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html

[Carana]

I have already posted that, Carana.
Urine is a bodily fluid, is it not? And it contains a trace amount of putricine.

Search Asset Profile

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html

Yes, I know, but it hasn't been established which decomposing body fluids from a living person Eddie may have been trained to ignore aside from blood.

There's simply no definitive answer to that either way, as no one seems to have asked Grime. Unless anyone finds a case in which Grime has testified in court that Eddie would not react to decomposing urine, semen, vaginal fluids, sputum, nasal secretions, etc., then I don't see why it should be assumed that alerts to such substances are unlikely.

[Anna]

The cite that I posted, does not exclude any bodily fluids. So it appears that Eddie was not conditioned to ignore any body fluids.

 Like you, I have found nothing further to confirm, whether his training included being desensitised to anything. With the exception of road kill and bacon sandwiches, that is.

My conclusion would have to be .......He could have alerted to urine.

However although this could contribute, to my thoughts of the common denominator, It is not what I have in mind.