Amaral and the dogs

[Carana]

I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
See his rogatory interview.
BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.

He reacts to dried blood from a living human being.

I was giving Eddie credit for possibly having alerted in the general area of the milk teeth in Jersey. Are you saying that he didn't react to them?

Deciduous teeth count as human remains, don't they? If not, what are they?

[stephen25000]

With a dog about 18 months from retirement?

And given that we have a tried-and-trusted method of training cadaver dogs in Britain (also used in States of the United States where use of human remains is similarly prohibited) because we regard it as unethical to use human body parts or remains, why would we indulge both the expense and the hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways banned as unethical here?

Yet other professions use human body parts for 'training'  in the UK.

It would also render the dogs more effective, as Grime obviously realized.

[ferryman]

Yet other professions use human body parts for 'training'  in the UK.

It would also render the dogs more effective, as Grime obviously realized.

Not on the evidence of PdL and Haut de La Garenne ....

[Brietta]

yes, thats why the handler/trainer travelled to  the usa to do it

!

                                                     Then you will have a cite for that?

[Brietta]

Eddie was trained to find the scent of a dead human, initially using decomposing piglets which smell so similar that VRD's trained in this way can find dead humans. His training was enhanced when he was given the actual scent of a dead human. No cross-training, all his training was aimed at finding dead human beings.

Actually ... scientists have discovered that we probably smell more like chicken when we decompose rather than pig.

**Snip
Additionally, while “…we humans smell much more like chicken than pig when we decompose,” cadaver detection dogs should only be trained on human remains.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/dog-spies/dog-of-the-dead-the-science-of-canine-cadaver-detection/

[Anna]

He reacts to dried blood from a living human being.

I was giving Eddie credit for possibly having alerted in the general area of the milk teeth in Jersey. Are you saying that he didn't react to them?

Deciduous teeth count as human remains, don't they? If not, what are they?

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

[pegasus]

I didn't know that anybody did. However the forensic team would have and possibly the GNR.

I don't recall seeing any statement specifically stating "That night I moved the sofa out and looked behind it".

[Anna]

I don't recall seeing any statement specifically stating "That night I moved the sofa out and looked behind it".

You are probably correct. I thought there was forensic photographs of the curtains and window wall in the lounge.

[mercury]

He reacts to dried blood from a living human being.

I was giving Eddie credit for possibly having alerted in the general area of the milk teeth in Jersey. Are you saying that he didn't react to them?

Deciduous teeth count as human remains, don't they? If not, what are they?

Yes of course, I meant to put that in my post though "everyone knows it is a given by now" but in PDL it matters not as Keela found no blood for his (not confirmed by Keela) alerts, even though apparently some thnk he reatcs to its remnant scent

I have no idea if Eddie alerted to teeth
Maybe he did, teeth were found, maybe it was not to the teeth
I am no expert
I type as I find
What do you think Grime means when he says Eddie was not trained for live human odours BUT he will react to blood. Do you thnk he meant to include all the possibilities that are touted and forgot to put them in his profile?
No teeth,plasters, pee pools, nappies, period blood, nails, and lets not forget bacon sandwhiches were found in flat 5a

and I find it hard to believe Eddie would react to "remnant scent" of "everyday" occurrences because he alerted to nothng anywhere else in all the searches of reaidences and other areas which is beyond the odds IMO

[mercury]

                                                     Then you will have a cite for that?

It is in his profile!

Unless you thnk the scent pads were sent by post back to england?

[pegasus]

You are probably correct. I thought there was forensic photographs of the curtains and window wall in the lounge.

The photos you are remembering were taken months later on 1st August 2007.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
IMO there is no-one, not a single tourist, GNR officer, PJ officer, or Forensics officer, who states specifically
 "That night I moved the sofa away from the wall to look behind it then pushed it back against the wall"

[Anna]

The photos you are remembering were taken months later on 1st August 2007.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
IMO there is no-one, not a single tourist, GNR officer, PJ officer, or Forensics officer, who states specifically
 "That night I moved the sofa away from the wall to look behind it then pushed it back against the wall"

Yes, I found it, Pegasus. So what are you saying?



ETA image

[misty]

I don't recall seeing any statement specifically stating "That night I moved the sofa out and looked behind it".

Kate doesn't mention checking anywhere in the living room in her book.
Had the settee been moved from the position the parents left it in (pushed against the wall/curtains) would that not have prompted an immediate check behind it?

Were the clothes marked by Eddie ever subjected to further forensic tests for the presence of cadaverine deposits?

[mercury]

Kate doesn't mention checking anywhere in the living room in her book.
Had the settee been moved from the position the parents left it in (pushed against the wall/curtains) would that not have prompted an immediate check behind it?

Were the clothes marked by Eddie ever subjected to further forensic tests for the presence of cadaverine deposits?

No, because there is no such test. Keela did not find blood on them so her potential alerts could have been tested

[misty]

No, because there is no such test. Keela did not find blood on them so her potential alerts could have been tested

Since when did forensics only test clothing for blood?
If cadaverscent can be deposited on scent pads to be used for dog training, then there are chemicals which can be tested for, aren't there?