Amaral and the dogs

[sadie]

Where ?

Now that is the million dollar question !

Almost certainly not in PdL or nearby, and never has been.

[sadie]

this is what you said:-

And given that we have a tried-and-trusted method of training cadaver dogs in Britain (also used in States of the United States where use of human remains is similarly prohibited)
Very easy to skimp over " states of the united states"

Hence my response

Still, I don't  believe you have any argument as the fact remans Eddie was trained on eal human corpses

Was that before or after Madeleine vanished.?   

And is that fact?   Where did you find that "fact" ?

[Lace]

Eddie was trained to find the scent of a dead human, initially using decomposing piglets which smell so similar that VRD's trained in this way can find dead humans. His training was enhanced when he was given the actual scent of a dead human. No cross-training, all his training was aimed at finding dead human beings.

Eddie was used as a forensic search dog and this is what it says about such dogs -

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
 A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


It says a dog which has NEVER been used to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

Now I'm sorry but Eddie was trained using pigs,   it may be the closest thing to human tissue but it isn't human tissue.    If being trained on pigs was fine why did Grime go off and train Eddie on human tissue too?   

[Carew]

When fundamental errors are touted as "truth" and repeated often enough, couched in selective wordy, "research," it is obvious what the purpose is............and veracity isn`t necessarily the word for it.

How about the one in which a response from Keela and Eddie at the same spot definitely rules out any possibility that Eddie could have been alerting to cadaver contaminant ?

Only last month you were touting that one............( tenacity rather than veracity?)

[Carana]

Eddie was used as a forensic search dog and this is what it says about such dogs -

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
 A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


It says a dog which has NEVER been used to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

Now I'm sorry but Eddie was trained using pigs,   it may be the closest thing to human tissue but it isn't human tissue.    If being trained on pigs was fine why did Grime go off and train Eddie on human tissue too?

The decomposition of pigs (in terms of VOCs and stages) is close to that of humans, but some differences have been found. (I'd have to check which scientific papers state that, it might be Vass.)

I presume that the purpose of using real cadaver scent on gauze pads was to enhance Eddie's abilities, but - according to Grime - even dogs trained solely on human cadavers will react to "pig-based products".


Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium. The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

(Grime report)

[stephen25000]

The decomposition of pigs (in terms of VOCs and stages) is close to that of humans, but some differences have been found. (I'd have to check which scientific papers state that, it might be Vass.)

I presume that the purpose of using real cadaver scent on gauze pads was to enhance Eddie's abilities, but - according to Grime - even dogs trained solely on human cadavers will react to "pig-based products".


Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium. The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

(Grime report)

So I presume there is evidence of pig 'material'  in all the dog alerts in PDL ?

[Carew]

you really have no idea at all.

Odd that this personal comment remains but my reply was deleted.

The idea that double standards regarding the criticism levelled at those who have been "asking questions " of the McCanns for 8 years by those same posters who target MG on a daily basis similarly is relevant in principle and worth mentioning.

Quoting numbers on various sites as a tit-for-tat excuse doesn`t really alter the principle.

[Carana]

Eddie was used as a forensic search dog and this is what it says about such dogs -

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
 A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


It says a dog which has NEVER been used to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

Now I'm sorry but Eddie was trained using pigs,   it may be the closest thing to human tissue but it isn't human tissue.    If being trained on pigs was fine why did Grime go off and train Eddie on human tissue too?

That issue applies to any cadaver / VRD dogs trained with a substitute for actual human remains (whether pig or pseudo scent). I have no idea whether the idea of using real scent on pads is now used as a regular training tool or not. It seems to have been a fairly new idea at the time.

[Carana]

So I presume there is evidence of pig 'material'  in all the dog alerts in PDL ?

That's not what I said, Stephen.

Decomposing human remains and body fluids do not necessarily mean that the person is dead.

In the UK, ethics dictate that it's not acceptable to use human corpses for dog training. I'm not quite sure why not if someone has donated their body to science, but anyway.

What's not clear is whether, in addition to human blood, they are allowed to use, e.g., extracted human teeth or not.

[Carana]

On attempting to identify VOCs in "decomposed human tissue":


Hoffman et al. [8] attempted to identify the VOCs in
samples of various types of decomposed human tissues,
including blood, blood clot, placenta, muscle, testicle, skin,
body fat, adipocere, and bone.

http://pawsoflife-org.k9handleracademy.com/Library/HRD/DeGreeff_2011.pdf

With what I presume to be an exception in the case of adipocere, the others don't necessarily imply that the subject died.

[Brietta]

The decomposition of pigs (in terms of VOCs and stages) is close to that of humans, but some differences have been found. (I'd have to check which scientific papers state that, it might be Vass.)

I presume that the purpose of using real cadaver scent on gauze pads was to enhance Eddie's abilities, but - according to Grime - even dogs trained solely on human cadavers will react to "pig-based products".


Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium. The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

(Grime report)

I've read that on numerous occasions, Carana, and only now have I noticed that the dogs had never been exposed to pig in their training "These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources." yet they alerted to pig.

Mr Grime would I imagine have introduced the scent of pig as part of the dogs' assessment on whether or not they reacted to scent from decomposing animal sources ... I can think of no other reason for introducing pig scent to dogs trained solely on human sources.

Because these were training or assessment exercises the substances causing the dogs' observed response were known. 

If a dog alerts and there is nothing there to signify what caused it to alert and going on the discussion of other man made possible sources Misty and Anna have brought to the thread I think it brings the whole acceptance of these alerts into question.

For example ... Mr Grime describes situations when without exception (100%) dogs trained solely on human sources alerted to pig; courts in America are slowly allowing the introduction of 'cadaver scent' based on the training record of dogs like Morse who are trained using only human material and their total lack of interest in animal remains.
Wonder if the Defence know that the lack of reaction to animals does not include the porcine species or even those with feathers?


**Snip
Pig VOC signatures were not found to be a subset of human; in addition to sharing only seven of thirty human-specific compounds, an additional nine unique VOCs were recorded from pig samples which were not present in human samples. The VOC signatures from chicken and human samples were most similar sharing the most compounds of the animals studied.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424672

[Lace]

How can you train a dog on pig then take it to America and more or less say 'forget about the scent of pig that I trained you to detect now it's human bodies'    they may be 99% similar but there is still the 1 % that they are not the same.    No alert by Eddie in the bedroom can be used as evidence as it is not know what he was smelling,  he wasn't bothered at all,   Grime had to call him back numerous.   times if it wasn't for the fact that the bedroom was a known place that Madeleine had been then I doubt if Grime would have called him back.   In my opinion,  Eddie finally alerted because either he wanted to end the exercise or he smelt something that was in his training for eg. blood residue scent or maybe scent from the garden that someone had walked in,   they use pig bone in fertiliser don't they?

The alerts to cuddle cat and the clothes wouldn't be used as evidence either as dogs are trained not to pick up evidence,   Eddie picked up Cuddle Cat and he picked up the clothes.

[Carana]

I've read that on numerous occasions, Carana, and only now have I noticed that the dogs had never been exposed to pig in their training "These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources." yet they alerted to pig.

Mr Grime would I imagine have introduced the scent of pig as part of the dogs' assessment on whether or not they reacted to scent from decomposing animal sources ... I can think of no other reason for introducing pig scent to dogs trained solely on human sources.

Because these were training or assessment exercises the substances causing the dogs' observed response were known. 

If a dog alerts and there is nothing there to signify what caused it to alert and going on the discussion of other man made possible sources Misty and Anna have brought to the thread I think it brings the whole acceptance of these alerts into question.

For example ... Mr Grime describes situations when without exception (100%) dogs trained solely on human sources alerted to pig; courts in America are slowly allowing the introduction of 'cadaver scent' based on the training record of dogs like Morse who are trained using only human material and their total lack of interest in animal remains.
Wonder if the Defence know that the lack of reaction to animals does not include the porcine species or even those with feathers?


**Snip
Pig VOC signatures were not found to be a subset of human; in addition to sharing only seven of thirty human-specific compounds, an additional nine unique VOCs were recorded from pig samples which were not present in human samples. The VOC signatures from chicken and human samples were most similar sharing the most compounds of the animals studied.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424672

I came across something similar concerning chickens very recently... possibly yesterday. It might have been from a handler saying that decomposing chicken smells more like human decomp than that of pigs. I don't think I noted it as at the time it seemed to be just an opinion.

I HAD found a scientific study comparing various animal VOCs with those of humans, but I've never been able to find it again, although I did hunt extensively for it. It may have been taken off the Internet for copyright reasons as some likely links that I'd bookmarked to find it again sent me to "page not available".

[Brietta]

How can you train a dog on pig then take it to America and more or less say 'forget about the scent of pig that I trained you to detect now it's human bodies'    they may be 99% similar but there is still the 1 % that they are not the same.    No alert by Eddie in the bedroom can be used as evidence as it is not know what he was smelling,  he wasn't bothered at all,   Grime had to call him back numerous.   times if it wasn't for the fact that the bedroom was a known place that Madeleine had been then I doubt if Grime would have called him back.   In my opinion,  Eddie finally alerted because either he wanted to end the exercise or he smelt something that was in his training for eg. blood residue scent or maybe scent from the garden that someone had walked in,   they use pig bone in fertiliser don't they?

The alerts to cuddle cat and the clothes wouldn't be used as evidence either as dogs are trained not to pick up evidence,   Eddie picked up Cuddle Cat and he picked up the clothes.

Training materials for dogs include earth from a body deposition site; I don't think there is any doubt that Eddie would be highly likely to alert to earth which had been enriched with fertiliser which includes pig extracts.

Particularly since he was trained using pig and there is proof from Mr Grime's report that even dogs trained only on human remains had alerted 100% to pig.

[stephen25000]

Yet again.

If the mccanns have nothing to fear about the dog alerts, why all the bother on this thread ?

It won't change minds.