Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844826 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5415 on: September 11, 2015, 08:24:43 PM »
You didn't give a true acount of what Grime said
You missed out the word suggestive
You then gave your opinion of what Grime meant by suggestive
Those are the facts

Correct like he would have said about Eddie's alerts in the Theresa Parker and Kate Prout cases or any case without a body. Their husbands were found guilty without any evidence of a body. Cadaver dogs alerted in the Suzanne Pilley case but no body has been found.

Suzanne Pilley was a 38-year-old bookkeeper from Edinburgh, Scotland, who went missing on the morning of 4 May 2010. Following a highly publicised appeal for information on her whereabouts and intensive police enquiries, her former lover, David Gilroy, was arrested and charged with her murder. He was found guilty by majority verdict on 15 March 2012 and sentenced to life imprisonment. The case is controversial because the prosecution obtained a murder conviction without a body. The body of Suzanne Pilley has never been found.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5416 on: September 11, 2015, 08:30:38 PM »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5417 on: September 11, 2015, 08:34:51 PM »

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5418 on: September 11, 2015, 09:20:36 PM »
IMHO this thread is going from the sublime to the ridiculous and I don't see the point of it any more....

 &%5y%

oh, please note any smarmy comments in reply  shall be ignored so don't even bother

 *&*%£

« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 10:37:46 PM by mercury »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5419 on: September 11, 2015, 09:40:31 PM »
Correct like he would have said about Eddie's alerts in the Theresa Parker and Kate Prout cases or any case without a body. Their husbands were found guilty without any evidence of a body. Cadaver dogs alerted in the Suzanne Pilley case but no body has been found.

Suzanne Pilley was a 38-year-old bookkeeper from Edinburgh, Scotland, who went missing on the morning of 4 May 2010. Following a highly publicised appeal for information on her whereabouts and intensive police enquiries, her former lover, David Gilroy, was arrested and charged with her murder. He was found guilty by majority verdict on 15 March 2012 and sentenced to life imprisonment. The case is controversial because the prosecution obtained a murder conviction without a body. The body of Suzanne Pilley has never been found.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley

Scottish law allows uncorroborated dog alerts as evidence.

English law doesn't.

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5420 on: September 11, 2015, 10:58:16 PM »
Scottish law allows uncorroborated dog alerts as evidence.

English law doesn't.

No but English police use cadaver dogs to find cadavers and remant scents of them, (not spit and saliva or rotting salads)  no one would ask for anything less, and YES, the Met and SURREY police have evrds, I gave you Links last week, you ignored it, as you would, but continued to state as a fact that there are NO EVRDS apart from Eddie....as if it was some kind of lie, tell porkies, get caught out

Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5421 on: September 11, 2015, 11:27:05 PM »
No but English police use cadaver dogs to find cadavers and remant scents of them, (not spit and saliva or rotting salads)  no one would ask for anything less, and YES, the Met and SURREY police have evrds, I gave you Links last week, you ignored it, as you would, but continued to state as a fact that there are NO EVRDS apart from Eddie....as if it was some kind of lie, tell porkies, get caught out
There was a Met case where the perp is now in jail due entirely to an EVRD (our SIO had worked on this case). Was that a Met EVRD, or borrowed from another force, anyone know?

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5422 on: September 11, 2015, 11:42:41 PM »
F
There was a Met case where the perp is now in jail due entirely to an EVRD (our SIO had worked on this case). Was that a Met EVRD, or borrowed from another force, anyone know?

I don't know the case, but it doesn't matter, the failed mission to denigrate  cadaver dogs  their abilities and their findings and  handlers is just that, failed 100 % and so embarrassing For them as wel as putting some ofthem in a position of LIBEL in this  case

que the blah de blah rubbish

It's almost sometimes as if some would self combust rather than consider there is the possibility of a dead body in 5a


how sad and how sad some might damage the case of finding Madeleine's body



« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 11:57:20 PM by mercury »

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5423 on: September 11, 2015, 11:50:01 PM »
There was a Met case where the perp is now in jail due entirely to an EVRD (our SIO had worked on this case). Was that a Met EVRD, or borrowed from another force, anyone know?

Don't know about your case but Tito and Muzzy were brought in to search for Alice Gross.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/alice-gross-missing-madeleine-mccann-4348073
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5424 on: September 12, 2015, 12:35:33 AM »
Don't know about your case but Tito and Muzzy were brought in to search for Alice Gross.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/alice-gross-missing-madeleine-mccann-4348073
I was thinking of the Hazell case which was a Met case (and our now SIO was reportedly part of the team).
Was the EVRD which solved that case owned by the Met, or brought in from another force?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 12:38:15 AM by pegasus »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5425 on: September 12, 2015, 01:00:39 AM »
Don't know about your case but Tito and Muzzy were brought in to search for Alice Gross.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/alice-gross-missing-madeleine-mccann-4348073

Tito and Muzzy do the same job as Eddie. All dogs can alert to blood.

Tito and Muzzy both have a powerful sense of smell that helps them locate human remains, blood and fluid a human would be unable to trace.

Handler Sally Richards said recently: “They are trained to find anything from tiny specks of blood which are hard for the human eye to see to a full-sized victim, and everything in between.”

"You have no way of telling what Morse responded to at any location?" Johnson asked Grime.
"He gave us a positive response," Grime said. "The corroboration would normally be to find a cadaver or bone or blood that you can see."
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5426 on: September 12, 2015, 09:09:26 AM »
thousands of posts re the dogs but no sceptic will answer the question...what do the alerts tell us
that is what is important

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5427 on: September 12, 2015, 09:53:14 AM »
thousands of posts re the dogs but no sceptic will answer the question...what do the alerts tell us
that is what is important

I will go with Grime, the man who trained and deployed the dogs. His professional opinion is of value because of his years of experience and his close relationship with the dogs. He tells us what they were trained to find, where they alerted, and what that means in his professional opinion. He quite properly points out that the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliabilty without supporting evidence, but he's clear about what he thinks  Eddie alerted to. Policemen are very aware of the need for facts and of the dangers of relying on opinion, but he still chose to express his opinion. That suggests confidence in Eddie's abilities.

The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
locate human remains or Human blood.


The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
evidence.

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant
. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5428 on: September 12, 2015, 09:56:47 AM »
I will go with Grime, the man who trained and deployed the dogs. His professional opinion is of value because of his years of experience and his close relationship with the dogs. He tells us what they were trained to find, where they alerted, and what that means in his professional opinion. He quite properly points out that the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliabilty without supporting evidence, but he's clear about what he thinks  Eddie alerted to. Policemen are very aware of the need for facts and of the dangers of relying on opinion, but he still chose to express his opinion. That suggests confidence in Eddie's abilities.

The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
locate human remains or Human blood.


The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
evidence.

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant
. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

so what exactly do the alerts tell us..I too accept what Grime tells us

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5429 on: September 12, 2015, 12:01:34 PM »
thousands of posts re the dogs but no sceptic will answer the question...what do the alerts tell us
that is what is important

As a result of the alerts was anything found that was sent to FSS for analysis?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey