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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on September 11, 2013, 11:28:14 PM

Title: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: faithlilly on September 11, 2013, 11:28:14 PM
So far we have been told that Michael Wright, Kate's cousin and David Edgar, their last PI will be called as witnesses. What exactly these witnesses can tell us about the night of the 3rd or the damage allegedly done to the search for Madeleine remains unclear. Surely the McCann's close friends the Paynes, or indeed any of their friends who were present, would be able to give more insight into the events of that night and what about Trish, Philomena, John or indeed Gerry's mother, wouldn't they have been better placed to give evidence of the devastating effect Amaral's book has allegedly had on the McCanns, individually and as a family ?

Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 12, 2013, 12:10:53 AM
So far we have been told that Michael Wright, Kate's cousin and David Edgar, their last PI will be called as witnesses. What exactly these witnesses can tell us about the night of the 3rd or the damage allegedly done to the search for Madeleine remains unclear. Surely the McCann's close friends the Paynes, or indeed any of their friends who were present, would be able to give more insight into the events of that night and what about Trish, Philomena, John or indeed Gerry's mother, wouldn't they have been better placed to give evidence of the devastating effect Amaral's book has allegedly had on the McCanns, individually and as a family ?
Is Michael W a cousin on the Healy side ?
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Lyall on September 12, 2013, 01:18:30 AM
Is Michael W a cousin on the Healy side ?

He's married to Kate's cousin.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Angelo222 on September 12, 2013, 08:23:40 AM
First in the witness box this morning is Emma Loach, daughter of film director Ken Loach.  Other witnesses will be Susan Hubbard, wife of the Church of England priest who befriended the family after the disappearance and Kates mother Susan Healey.

It is the intention of camp McCann to provide evidence to the court of the impact Amaral's claim that Madeleine died in apartment 5a had on them.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Luz on September 12, 2013, 08:42:32 AM
First in the witness box this morning is Emma Loach, daughter of film director Ken Loach.  Other witnesses will be Susan Hubbard, wife of the Church of England priest who befriended the family after the disappearance and Kates mother Susan Healey.

It is the intention of camp McCann to provide evidence to the court of the impact Amaral's claim that Madeleine died in apartment 5a had on them.

Good. They all can testify how happy Kate and Gerald were to attend Media sessions and to be finally the center of attention of a world of people.

In fact Mrs McCann put on weight during the first months after the child disappeared, she became more self conscious about her image, caring for herself about clothes, make up, hairdresser...she really looked rejuvenated. And that kept on for the following years.
Now she looks like crap, indeed, but that has nothing to do with a book that was published more than 5 years ago.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2013, 08:43:50 AM
First in the witness box this morning is Emma Loach, daughter of film director Ken Loach.  Other witnesses will be Susan Hubbard, wife of the Church of England priest who befriended the family after the disappearance and Kates mother Susan Healey.

It is the intention of camp McCann to provide evidence to the court of the impact Amaral's claim that Madeleine died in apartment 5a had on them.
.

So the con begins..............................................

Now since these people didn't believe it, how did it effect the search or the belief she was still alive ?

Meanwhile why aren't they using Deadwood, sorry Redwood as a witness ?
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2013, 08:50:49 AM
So the con begins.

Stephen25000 is writing a post ...
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2013, 09:06:45 AM
So the con begins.

Stephen25000 is writing a post ...


Well ferryman, ferryman.

So wrapped up in fairyland.............................

Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 10:18:59 AM
Why is it that Kate Mccann is not giving evidence but using a heap of others to tell the court how Mr Amaral was responsible for x y z? is it because she isnt called as a witness??

Follow martin brunt for tweets, if hearing is in private they are at least it seems allowing tweets from court? Not sure, otherwise those involved are briefing media

#madeleine Kate McCann declines to comment on arrival. Lawyer for Mr Amaral asking judge to ban media "to preserve the memory of Madeleine."
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   31m
#madeleine Kate McCann arrives for libel trial in Lisbon with mum Susan Healy and filmmaker Emma Loach. pic.twitter.com/AgdkrXeP5Z
View photo ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   39m
#madeleine McCann lawyer Isabel Duarte tells Sky News she believes ex-cop Goncalo Amaral is hiding the profits from his book.
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   2h
#madeleine Other McCann witnesses will include their private investigator Dave Edgar, solicitor Angus McBride and Kate's mum Susan Healy.
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   2h
#madeleine McCann first witness at libel trial will be documentary maker Emma Loach, daughter of film director Ken Loach.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Lyall on September 12, 2013, 10:23:35 AM
It's funny to see the so-called GA supporters on twitter and facebook in a frenzy today. If he wins they'll claim they helped, when in reality they have undermined him for years by constant discussion of theories rejected by the Portuguese police. Not all of them, but most.

It's not funny really.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 10:25:13 AM
Oh dear, even Brunty still getting Susan Hubbard mixed up with Susan Healy...sky footage of their arrival at court with Emma Loach being shown and S Hubbard being referred to as Kates Mum!!
 @)(++(*


Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Lyall on September 12, 2013, 11:03:54 AM
??

Look at them on twitter Red (I daren't look on facebook), they're undermining him as we speak - they're not discussing the legalities of the trial, they (i.e. the most vocal people claiming to be supporters of GA) are discussing Madeleine being dead.

Fools most of them.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2013, 11:13:37 AM
The trial has yet to begin.

All due to discussion whether the trial will be held in private.

Just seen Duarte on the box..........................
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Carana on September 12, 2013, 12:40:08 PM
What would be the conditions for a civil libel case to be held in camera in Portugal?
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 12:47:13 PM
Look at them on twitter Red (I daren't look on facebook), they're undermining him as we speak - they're not discussing the legalities of the trial, they (i.e. the most vocal people claiming to be supporters of GA) are discussing Madeleine being dead.

Fools most of them.

Oh I see now, thanks! Somehow though I doubt the judge will be checking out the hashtags

Just been reading the comments on the story on yahoo news, over 800 mostly negative, one person said, a million quid reward for leaving the kids alone, couldnt make it up really! Not that it will happen in a month of sundays

 @)(++(*

 


Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 04:37:23 PM
read from bottom up   

 martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   27m
#madeleine Loach: TV documentary later made things worse because more than 2 million people watched it.
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   30m
#madeleine Loach: book was published 3 days after Port police closed case saying no evidence of McCann involvement and "destroyed all that."
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   32m
#madeleine Loach: "Kate realised the people she needed help from now thought Madeleine was dead and they were implicated."
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   34m
#madeleine Documentary producer Emma Loach, friend of MCcanns, said Amaral's book and TV prog based on it had "devastating" effect on them.
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   2h
#madeleine Hubbard: actors who played Kate and Gerry in Portuguese documentary portrayed them after M vanished as "crazy, heavy drinkers"
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   3h
#madeleine Mrs Hubbard said TV documentary after the book made things worse, because viewers then bought more books.
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   3h
#madeleine Mrs Hubbard said McCanns could not believe Mr Amaral was allowed to write his book "without any facts."
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   4h
#madeleine Mrs Hubbard said McCanns devastated because book made everyone believe Madeleine was dead.
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   4h
#madeleine Mrs Hubbard said McCanns had to use all their energy to defend themselves instead of searching for Madeleine.
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   4h
#madeleine Susan Hubbard says McCanns devastated by Amaral book which said Madeleine died accidentally and they had been negligent.
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   5h
#madeleine Mr Amaral loses bid to have media excluded and libel trial under way. First witness is Susan Hubbard, friend and priest's wife
View details ·   
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: John on September 12, 2013, 04:45:58 PM
I find it very interesting that the Roman Catholic village priest from Praia da Luz has been sidelined in preference to the Church of England clerics wife Susan Hubbard.  They will be converting next.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: icabodcrane on September 12, 2013, 04:55:00 PM
I am surprised that Kate's good friend Fiona Payne is not there to speak about the devasting effect Amaral's book had on the McCanns 

I mean she was involved from the very start,  and given that she lives in Rothley it is fair to assume that she and Kate have stayed in close contact.  That being the case,  she would have witnessed the McCann's distress first-hand  (  indeed,  she was shipped in to support Kate at a previous court hearing,  when Gerry unexpectedly left to go home  )   

Instead,  though,  we have Mrs Hubbard as a witness to the distress  the book's publication caused the McCanns  ...  even though she was living in Canada at the time,  and did not observe it herself
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2013, 05:03:07 PM
I am surprised that Kate's good friend Fiona Payne is not there to speak about the devasting effect Amaral's book had on the McCanns 

I mean she was involved from the very start,  and given that she lives in Rothley it is fair to assume that she and Kate have stayed in close contact.  That being the case,  she would have witnessed the McCann's distress first-hand  (  indeed,  she was shipped in to support Kate at a previous court hearing,  when Gerry unexpectedly left to go home  )   

Instead,  though,  we have Mrs Hubbard as a witness to the distress  the book's publication caused the McCanns  ...  even though she was living in Canada at the time,  and did not observe it herself

Whose judgment to trust: Icabod's or Isabel Duarte's?

Tough one ...
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 05:08:11 PM
I am surprised that Kate's good friend Fiona Payne is not there to speak about the devasting effect Amaral's book had on the McCanns 

I mean she was involved from the very start,  and given that she lives in Rothley it is fair to assume that she and Kate have stayed in close contact.  That being the case,  she would have witnessed the McCann's distress first-hand  (  indeed,  she was shipped in to support Kate at a previous court hearing,  when Gerry unexpectedly left to go home  )   

Instead,  though,  we have Mrs Hubbard as a witness to the distress  the book's publication caused the McCanns  ...  even though she was living in Canada at the time,  and did not observe it herself


Or her personal gp/psychiatrist who treated her when, according to the libel writ, issued spring 2009 IS steeped in a deep and serious depression? or Gerrys if he made a visit to discuss living in a permanent state of anxiety and fear and loss of appetite....if that was true they sure had a great way of hiding it on camera right from Sept 08, example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P-z5HJxr0o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 05:30:31 PM
#madeleine Loach: TV bosses wouldn't let me use use the word "abduction" in my documentary because McCanns were still suspects.



So? Whats that to do with Amarals book? her first documentary was in April 2008

She certainly made up for it in her second in May 2009 when the female narrator (was it her?) said Jane Tanner may not have been the only one to see Madeleine being carried away by the abductor!....as IF any part of  that statement was a fact of any kind

Tut, artistic licences

And from a series calling itself cutting edge, fact finding documentaries, more like fuzzy edge!

Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Lyall on September 12, 2013, 05:46:58 PM
Narrator was Gina McKee I think. Oh Gina 8(8-))
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: icabodcrane on September 12, 2013, 05:47:20 PM
So far,  McCann witnesses have attested to the 'distress'  caused to the McCanns  by Amaral's book

I'm sure that is true ...   of course the book will have distressed them

Distressing isn't the same as libelous though is it  ?   (   the truth can be distressing too, afterall ) 

What witnesses do they have who will give evidence that  proves  what Amaral wrote  is untrue  ?

(  anyone know is on their list of witnesses   ?  ) 
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 05:50:57 PM
Thanks Lyall

Icab, these ones reported, though not sure if there are any others

Emma Loach, tv producer of two Mccann documentaries
Susan Hubbard, priests wife, befriended the Mccanns in PDL
Angus McBride, high flying(extradition or libel?) lawyer,not sure if was ever used
Dave Edgar, ex RUC police, Mccanns PI from Nov 08
Susan Healy, Kates mother
Michael  Wright,husband of Kates cousin who was in PDL on and off through the spring/summer
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2013, 05:55:13 PM
So far,  McCann witnesses have attested to the 'distress'  caused to the McCanns  by Amaral's book

I'm sure that is true ...   of course the book will have distressed them

Distressing isn't the same as libelous though is it  ?   (   the truth can be distressing too, afterall ) 

What witnesses do they have who will give evidence that  proves  what Amaral wrote  is untrue  ?

(  anyone know is on their list of witnesses   ?  )

Or witnesses that can provide statistical evidence that the book really did hamper the search ? Surely just stating in their opinion it has is not enough ?
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2013, 05:55:32 PM
Whose judgment to trust: Icabod's or Isabel Duarte's?

Tough one ...

Duarte, not in a million years. 8((()*/
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 06:00:35 PM
So far,  McCann witnesses have attested to the 'distress'  caused to the McCanns  by Amaral's book

I'm sure that is true ...   of course the book will have distressed them

Distressing isn't the same as libelous though is it  ?   (   the truth can be distressing too, afterall ) 

What witnesses do they have who will give evidence that  proves  what Amaral wrote  is untrue  ?

(  anyone know is on their list of witnesses   ?  )

perhaps you haven't seen my posts. What level of proof do they have to show...criminal..civil...or absolute
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 06:05:31 PM
or perhaps you have seen my posts and don't know the answer
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 06:14:45 PM
Panic stations....

Dont be so peurile...an attempt to discuss points might be more effective
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: icabodcrane on September 12, 2013, 06:15:18 PM
or perhaps you have seen my posts and don't know the answer

I don't understand what your post means 

Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 06:17:04 PM
So far,  McCann witnesses have attested to the 'distress'  caused to the McCanns  by Amaral's book

I'm sure that is true ...   of course the book will have distressed them

Distressing isn't the same as libelous though is it  ?   (   the truth can be distressing too, afterall ) 

What witnesses do they have who will give evidence that  proves  what Amaral wrote  is untrue  ?

(  anyone know is on their list of witnesses   ?  )

Im sorry to say that your lack of response shows you haven't a clue what you are talking about..
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: sika on September 12, 2013, 06:30:26 PM
Good. They all can testify how happy Kate and Gerald were to attend Media sessions and to be finally the center of attention of a world of people.

In fact Mrs McCann put on weight during the first months after the child disappeared, she became more self conscious about her image, caring for herself about clothes, make up, hairdresser...she really looked rejuvenated. And that kept on for the following years.
Now she looks like crap, indeed, but that has nothing to do with a book that was published more than 5 years ago.
Jesus! You are vile!
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: icabodcrane on September 12, 2013, 06:33:53 PM
Im sorry to say that your lack of response shows you haven't a clue what you are talking about..

I have replied davel  (  see above  )

I simply don't understand what you are asking  ...  could you put it into sentences rather than just disjointed words  ?   

thanks
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 06:36:34 PM
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   26m
#madeleine Kate McCann about to make statement at end of first day of Lisbon libel action against ex-cop and TV documentary makers.
View details ·   
    martinbrunt @skymartinbrunt   59m
#madeleine Loach: McCanns have to monitor Internet use of twins Seam and Amelie to stop them finding out about book and Port TV documentary.
View details ·   

Their eight yr olds are let loose on the internet?
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 06:52:12 PM
No surprises so far. As the Bureau said a while ago [Not like the Good Old Days, February 2012, McCann files] the list of witnesses for the McCanns indicates that Duarte is concentrating on putting forward an emotion-based, rather than fact-based, case. And proceedings today followed that forecast as if we’d written the script for them eighteen months ago.

Snip

Whether it will be successful I have no idea: waves of emotion, rather than truth, have carried the couple along so far, just like that other well-capitalised and successful manufactured product of Messrs Kennedy, Smethurst and others, double-glazing. Both products have been subject to similar reservations over the years – that they are plastic, see-through, heavily oversold to the proletariat and won’t last long but they also share the valuable quality that dirt, and particularly Grime, don’t stick to them at all.


The risk, of course, is that the defence won’t waste time trying to convince the court that the photos and endless celebrity interviews of the couple show a severe shortage of the dreadful suffering that the writ alleges Amaral caused them, but will concentrate on the evidence that other police officer accumulated and the reasonable inferences that could, and should, have been drawn by Amaral or any other co-ordinator.  I doubt if people like Mother Hubbard will be much use in refuting such points.

Snip

Exactly!

http://aninspectorcallsyou.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 06:52:31 PM
I don't understand what your post means

you say the McCanns have to prove amaral wrong
I ask you what level of proof they have to provide
Do you understand there are different degrees... levels of proof
I ask...what level of proof do the McCanns have to provide
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 06:56:05 PM
No surprises so far. As the Bureau said a while ago [Not like the Good Old Days, February 2012, McCann files] the list of witnesses for the McCanns indicates that Duarte is concentrating on putting forward an emotion-based, rather than fact-based, case. And proceedings today followed that forecast as if we’d written the script for them eighteen months ago.

Snip

Whether it will be successful I have no idea: waves of emotion, rather than truth, have carried the couple along so far, just like that other well-capitalised and successful manufactured product of Messrs Kennedy, Smethurst and others, double-glazing. Both products have been subject to similar reservations over the years – that they are plastic, see-through, heavily oversold to the proletariat and won’t last long but they also share the valuable quality that dirt, and particularly Grime, don’t stick to them at all.


The risk, of course, is that the defence won’t waste time trying to convince the court that the photos and endless celebrity interviews of the couple show a severe shortage of the dreadful suffering that the writ alleges Amaral caused them, but will concentrate on the evidence that other police officer accumulated and the reasonable inferences that could, and should, have been drawn by Amaral or any other co-ordinator.  I doubt if people like Mother Hubbard will be much use in refuting such points.

Snip

Exactly!

http://aninspectorcallsyou.blogspot.co.uk/

Well hes going to struggle their seeing as the final report says there is no evidence against the McCanns
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 07:00:07 PM
Well hes going to struggle their seeing as the final report says there is no evidence against the McCanns

Simplistic assumption dear davel, dont forget the appellant court ruling!!! Told you a couple days ago libel trial is based on the book, book has been given all clear by higher court, so....no leg to stand on IMHO of course,catch you later on
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 07:04:41 PM
Simplistic assumption dear davel, dont forget the appellant court ruling!!! Told you a couple days ago libel trial is based on the book, book has been given all clear by higher court, so....no leg to stand on IMHO of course,catch you later on

The hearing was exparte..its a whole new ball game now imo
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: icabodcrane on September 12, 2013, 07:14:30 PM
you say the McCanns have to prove amaral wrong
I ask you what level of proof they have to provide
Do you understand there are different degrees... levels of proof
I ask...what level of proof do the McCanns have to provide

I don't know what you mean by  'levels of proof'

To put it quite simply

Amaral believes that Madeleine died in the apartment and that her parents staged an abduction to cover up the death

He has written a book saying the same

The McCanns say that it is not true that Madeleine died in the apartment and that they staged an abduction to cover up the death

They say that because what Amaral claims is untrue he has libeled them

In order to  'prove'  that what Amaral says is untrue  (  and therefore  libelous )   they need  to prove that Madeleine did  NOT  die in the apartment,  and  to prove that they did  NOT  stage  an abduction

What  witnesses/evidence   can they produce to  prove that  ? 

I'm thinking perhaps that is why Dave Edgar is there  ... to  present his theory that Madeleine is still alive and his reasoning behind it  ...  what do you think  ?  ) 
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Lyall on September 12, 2013, 07:26:58 PM
Well hes going to struggle their seeing as the final report says there is no evidence against the McCanns

Yes but it also indicates no evidence for their claim about what happened to Madeleine either. G McCann says this himself in the first of Loach's films. "No hard facts to go on other than what we knew on the night really".

I don't envy the Lisbon judges. Tough job.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 07:27:07 PM
I don't know what you mean by  'levels of proof'

To put it quite simply

Amaral believes that Madeleine died in the apartment and that her parents staged an abduction to cover up the death

He has written a book saying the same

The McCanns say that it is not true that Madeleine died in the apartment and that they staged an abduction to cover up the death

They say that because what Amaral claims is untrue he has libeled them

In order to  'prove'  that what Amaral says is untrue  (  and therefore  libelous )   they need  to prove that Madeleine did  NOT  die in the apartment,  and  to prove that they did  NOT  stage  an abduction

What  witnesses/evidence   can they produce to  prove that  ? 

I'm thinking perhaps that is why Dave Edgar is there  ... to  present his theory that Madeleine is still alive and his reasoning behind it  ...  what do you think  ?  )



I don't know what you mean by  'levels of proof'....levels of proof is a basic concept in law...perhaps you should try google.
Without defing what level of proof the Mccanns the need to demonstrate you ask a question that is vague and impossible to answer
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 07:29:06 PM
Yes but it also indicates no evidence for their claim about what happened to Madeleine either. G McCann says this himself in the first of Loach's films. "No hard facts to go on other than what we knew on the night really".

I don't envy the Lisbon judges. Tough job.

it is Blacksmith who talks of  evidence when you admit there is none. That's why I think blacksmith is an idiot
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 07:36:50 PM
Definition from Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary

The burden of proof placed on a party in certain types of civil cases, such as cases involving fraud. Clear and convincing is a higher standard than "preponderance of the evidence," the standard typical in most civil cases, but not as high as "beyond a reasonable doubt," the burden placed on the prosecution in criminal cases.

Some examples of different levels of evidence.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Luz on September 12, 2013, 07:40:29 PM
it is Blacksmith who talks of  evidence when you admit there is none. That's why I think blacksmith is an idiot

You think wrong.

There is evidence about many things.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Lyall on September 12, 2013, 07:45:12 PM
it is Blacksmith who talks of  evidence when you admit there is none. That's why I think blacksmith is an idiot

Depends on what issue you mean. I think he's always said there isn't conclusive evidence indicating Madeleine's fate (in fact pretty recently at one point he said McCann critics had "none" proving their guilt).

But the issue of their honesty is another thing entirely.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: icabodcrane on September 12, 2013, 07:52:41 PM
Definition from Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary

The burden of proof placed on a party in certain types of civil cases, such as cases involving fraud. Clear and convincing is a higher standard than "preponderance of the evidence," the standard typical in most civil cases, but not as high as "beyond a reasonable doubt," the burden placed on the prosecution in criminal cases.

Some examples of different levels of evidence.

Thanks davel,  that is interesting and informative

I've just looked up  'preponderance of evidence' which,  as you say,  is more appropriately applied to a civil case  (  and therefore most likely in this case  )   

Preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and it's probable truth or accuracy  ...  Thus, one clearly knowledgeable witness may provide a preponderance of evidence  rather than a dozen witnesses with hazy testimony

Do you think the Judge will make a decision based on which theory is more convincingly evidenced   ( the McCann's or Amaral's  )   ? 
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 07:54:17 PM
Depends on what issue you mean. I think he's always said there isn't conclusive evidence indicating Madeleine's fate (in fact pretty recently at one point he said McCann critics had "none" proving their guilt).

But the issue of their honesty is another thing entirely.

Well there is no question re amarals honesty...the lack of it haw been proved in court
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 08:09:36 PM
Well there is no question re amarals honesty...the lack of it haw been proved in court

That depends

And the mccanns have been proven to be dishonest multitude of times, though not in a court, just proven by their own words...
 @)(++(*


Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 08:10:24 PM
The hearing was exparte..its a whole new ball game now imo

Same ball same game

Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 08:33:38 PM
it is Blacksmith who talks of  evidence when you admit there is none. That's why I think blacksmith is an idiot

So you thnk blacksmith is an idiot
You also think the portuguese public prosecutors were idiots
Anyone else in your list?

No doubt the supreme court judges,that tossed the mccanns attempt to ban a book,  mr grime, etc etc
 >@@(*&)




Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 09:31:02 PM
So you thnk blacksmith is an idiot
You also think the portuguese public prosecutors were idiots
Anyone else in your list?

No doubt the supreme court judges,that tossed the mccanns attempt to ban a book,  mr grime, etc etc
 >@@(*&)

supreme court judges ...no...the book hadn't been proved to be libellous so no grounds to ban it.
Mr Grime...no....he said the dogs alerts had no evidential value

Everyone forgets when blacksmith gets it wrong..in feb he said the mccanns would settle on amarals terms...he was wrong. in my opinion he is a wanabee who never made it in the real world but is able to fool a small band of gullible fools on the net
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 12, 2013, 09:35:02 PM
supreme court judges ...no...the book hadn't been proved to be libellous so no grounds to ban it.
Mr Grime...no....he said the dogs alerts had no evidential value

Everyone forgets when blacksmith gets it wrong..in feb he said the mccanns would settle on amarals terms...he was wrong. in my opinion he is a wanabee who never made it in the real world but is able to fool a small band of gullible fools on the net

Yada yada


Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2013, 09:35:45 PM
Thanks davel,  that is interesting and informative

I've just looked up  'preponderance of evidence' which,  as you say,  is more appropriately applied to a civil case  (  and therefore most likely in this case  )   

Preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and it's probable truth or accuracy  ...  Thus, one clearly knowledgeable witness may provide a preponderance of evidence  rather than a dozen witnesses with hazy testimony

Do you think the Judge will make a decision based on which theory is more convincingly evidenced   ( the McCann's or Amaral's  )   ?

Sorry for not answering  sooner...if the level of proof required is low, then the McCanns win, if its high then its Amaral
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Luz on September 12, 2013, 10:13:37 PM
The truth hurts.

Unfortunately for the McCann (unless they are privileged for being foreigners), they will never get the money they are seeking.

In 2011, a former Minister that had been in prison accused of paedophilia and later released for lack of evidence, sued the Portuguese State for 100 thousand Euros. He didn't get a cent although he was imprisoned for about four months.

[urlhttp://www.jn.pt/PaginaInicial/Policia/Interior.aspx?content_id=1815426][/url]


 
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2013, 12:40:35 AM
The atmosphere was rather cool in the court room today. Mrs Duarte was exceptionally calm and pondered. She not once said "abduction" and speaking about the effect of the book on the McCanns always added "if any".
The interpreter is British (living in Lx) and told me she had been contacted by the tribunal a few days ago.
Generally speaking nobody knows much about the files and some journalists just know what they've read in their newspapers.
Some posters here know much better. Many mistakes were said without anyone protesting.
About 3/4 of an hour were lost because Ms Loach couldn't remember when her documentary had been broadcast in PT and the TVI lawyer had another title !
All the sessions are taped.
I'll be there to-morrow. Too tired to send my notes to-night.
But I sent John some pics.

Thank you for your report Anne. I'm sure everyone on this forum appreciates your efforts.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: John on September 13, 2013, 01:27:26 AM
Most definitely.  Am looking forward to reading your notes about the hearing Anne.  Thanks again for a marvellous effort.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: icabodcrane on September 13, 2013, 01:39:30 AM
The atmosphere was rather cool in the court room today. Mrs Duarte was exceptionally calm and pondered. She not once said "abduction" and speaking about the effect of the book on the McCanns always added "if any".
The interpreter is British (living in Lx) and told me she had been contacted by the tribunal a few days ago.
Generally speaking nobody knows much about the files and some journalists just know what they've read in their newspapers.
Some posters here know much better. Many mistakes were said without anyone protesting.
About 3/4 of an hour were lost because Ms Loach couldn't remember when her documentary had been broadcast in PT and the TVI lawyer had another title !
All the sessions are taped.
I'll be there to-morrow. Too tired to send my notes to-night.
But I sent John some pics.

How kind of you to go to the trouble of bringing us first-hand information

Thank you Anne 
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Chinagirl on September 13, 2013, 04:17:36 AM
I add my thanks.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 13, 2013, 11:40:02 AM
Thanks Lyall

Icab, these ones reported, though not sure if there are any others

Emma Loach, tv producer of two Mccann documentaries
Susan Hubbard, priests wife, befriended the Mccanns in PDL
Angus McBride, high flying(extradition or libel?) lawyer,not sure if was ever used
Dave Edgar, ex RUC police, Mccanns PI from Nov 08
Susan Healy, Kates mother
Michael  Wright,husband of Kates cousin who was in PDL on and off through the spring/summer

One more to add

A child psychologist,name unknown
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mo Stache on September 13, 2013, 12:07:19 PM
These people are unbelievable in their arrogance and stupidity.
Oh the irony!
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 13, 2013, 12:19:12 PM
I wonder why Sky are not tweeting anything today
 >@@(*&)


Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: John on September 13, 2013, 12:29:36 PM
I wonder why Sky are not tweeting anything today
 >@@(*&)

We hope to have news from Portugal very soon Redblossom.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Lyall on September 13, 2013, 12:30:43 PM
I wonder why Sky are not tweeting anything today
 >@@(*&)

Is Brunty still there? He may have left to cover another story (Leicester fire maybe).
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Cudge on September 13, 2013, 12:41:03 PM
The atmosphere was rather cool in the court room today. Mrs Duarte was exceptionally calm and pondered. She not once said "abduction" and speaking about the effect of the book on the McCanns always added "if any".
The interpreter is British (living in Lx) and told me she had been contacted by the tribunal a few days ago.
Generally speaking nobody knows much about the files and some journalists just know what they've read in their newspapers.
Some posters here know much better. Many mistakes were said without anyone protesting.
About 3/4 of an hour were lost because Ms Loach couldn't remember when her documentary had been broadcast in PT and the TVI lawyer had another title !
All the sessions are taped.
I'll be there to-morrow. Too tired to send my notes to-night.
But I sent John some pics.

So with the  delay caused due to Mr Amaral requesting the hearing be held in Camera court quite a shorter day than anticipated then ?
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2013, 12:46:35 PM
One more to add

A child psychologist,name unknown

Is it David Trickey ?
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Redblossom on September 13, 2013, 01:47:25 PM
We hope to have news from Portugal very soon Redblossom.

Thanks John

Caught a video on youtube showing Kates Mum and her sis in law Pat Cameron arriving in ciurt tiday, posted it up on the video library

@Lyall, I doubt Brunty would fly back to the Uk to report on a domestic house fire

@ Faithlilly, I dont know, maybe, Ive googled his pic and it looks like one of the men photographed by Anne yesterday leaving the building
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 13, 2013, 05:23:41 PM
So with the  delay caused due to Mr Amaral requesting the hearing be held in Camera court quite a shorter day than anticipated then ?
Yes some delay was caused yesterday by the study of Mr Amaral's request, but this request had a motive. Apart from the f... episode, remember what the tabloids wrote on him.. And think that most of the UK media present in Lisbon are tabloids. After the announcement the judge couldn't come back, the Sunday Express guy told me he was worried not to have much for his paper. I said "but the questions raised by the psychologist are interesting" and he replied "but I work for a Sunday paper, I need something spicy". I thought I would prefer to clean the streets than doing that job.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 13, 2013, 05:26:43 PM
Is it David Trickey ?
Yes. Though he was called as a specialist of trauma in kids, in fact he saw the twins once, he had 2 meetings with the McCanns about the future of the twins.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 13, 2013, 06:07:13 PM
Duarte is concentrating on putting forward an emotion-based, rather than fact-based, case.

Yes, though he presented himself as a specialist of criminal defence and management of the media, Mr McBride, this morning, wasn't able to give even vague numbers when asked by GA's lawyer (Victor Santos de Oliveira) to compare the media effects of the disappearance, the arguido status and the book.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on September 13, 2013, 07:24:04 PM
Yes, though he presented himself as a specialist of criminal defence and management of the media, Mr McBride, this morning, wasn't able to give even vague numbers when asked by GA's lawyer (Victor Santos de Oliveira) to compare the media effects of the disappearance, the arguido status and the book.

Interesting, Anne

Such an obvious question

But an almost unanswerable one at that
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: John on September 13, 2013, 07:48:45 PM
Interesting, Anne

Such an obvious question

But an almost unanswerable one at that

Do you get the impression they are sailing uphill Anne?   >@@(*&)
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: icabodcrane on September 13, 2013, 07:56:01 PM
Yes, though he presented himself as a specialist of criminal defence and management of the media, Mr McBride, this morning, wasn't able to give even vague numbers when asked by GA's lawyer (Victor Santos de Oliveira) to compare the media effects of the disappearance, the arguido status and the book.

That's interesting Anne

Was Amaral's lawyer pointing out that it was the McCanns becoming arguido that lead to the change in public opinion,  rather than Amaral's book,  do you think  ? 
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2013, 12:19:09 PM
I'll take that as a 'No' 8)-))) No scientists on the list.

why would the McCanns want a scientist on the list
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: AnneGuedes on September 14, 2013, 12:26:55 PM
What I seem to know (the judge was speaking to the clerk) is that João Melchior Gomes (the public prosecutor who signed the AG report) and Alipio Ribeiro (the national director of the PJ who kicked out GA) are on GA's witness list.
Careful ! I heard it, but could have heard erroneously. I'll confirm this next week.
Title: Re: McCann v Gonçalo Amaral libel case - Witnesses
Post by: Lyall on September 14, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
I don't know. What I seem to know (the judge was speaking to the clerk) is that João Melchior Gomes (the public prosecutor who signed the AG report) and Alipio Ribeiro (the national director of the PJ who kicked out GA) are on GA's witness list.

Good  8((()*/