Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?

[Mr Gray]

Yes of course I know that. I was responding to your question which was:

"And why didn’t the dogs pick up cadaver scent OUTSIDE? Why did they pick up Maddie’s scent all the way to the supermarket"?

My answer was that Eddie, the cadaver dog, did alert outside... and that the dogs tracking Maddie's scent (earlier in May 2007) were NOT cadaver dogs. Your use of the word "they" in the sentence after "the dogs" implied that the tracker dogs were cadaver dogs.

One cadaver dog was used he alerted inside apartment 5a and just outside it.

The alert outside is a red flag  to seriously question the credibility of the alerts imo. I don't see any way remnant scent...without physical remains...could last 3 months outside...open to the elements

[G-Unit]

Why not? It may just fill the dearth of information in the files. My thinking.

There's a lot of information about the tracker dogs in the files and none of it mentions the Batista Supermarket or that inaccurate description of the route of those dogs.

During the early hours of 4th May two patrol dogs from Portimao were given a pink blanket to sniff;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CARLOS-LACAO.htm

When the tracker dogs arrived they were given a bath towel to sniff at 11pm on 4th;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

They all followed the route I have provided, and the tracker dogs repeated it on 8th May.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

The alert outside is a red flag  to seriously question the credibility of the alerts imo. I don't see any way remnant scent...without physical remains...could last 3 months outside...open to the elements

So what do you put it down to? Martin Grime encouraging Eddie to false alert? I think it’s blatantly obvious that if the dogs lack credibility and give false alerts all over the place the pattern of the alerts would be random - but they specifically only involve one family.

[Mr Gray]

So what do you put it down to? Martin Grime encouraging Eddie to false alert? I think it’s blatantly obvious that if the dogs lack credibility and give false alerts all over the place the pattern of the alerts would be random - but they specifically only involve one family.

And I've explained why they only alerted to things McCann. From a scientific point of view I don't see how remnant remnant scent ...without remains...could last 3 months outside with wind and rain..

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

And I've explained why they only alerted to things McCann. From a scientific point of view I don't see how remnant remnant scent ...without remains...could last 3 months outside with wind and rain..

Did you ever come across the story that explained the alerts by claiming KM had attended several PMs before the holiday?

The only explanation I recall you discussing was Grime encouraging false alerts (maybe even subconsciously). This makes no sense to me. Why would Grime undermine the dog’s credibility?

[Brietta]

Who says? Why do you prefer that report to the one in the official files?

I remember some years ago it was pointed out to the forum that the official photograph in the files marking out casa Liliana doesn't.  It mistakenly denotes a neighbour's villa as the Murat residence.

04-Processos Vol IV Pages 957 - 958
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

Just because it's in the files doesn't necessarily make it so.



Also there is a rather good dog thread on the forum too which shows the actual route the dogs took based on the information given by their handlers (also in the files) and the pictorial record differs from the statements given.

So that pictorial information may well be inaccurate also.

[G-Unit]

I remember some years ago it was pointed out to the forum that the official photograph in the files marking out casa Liliana doesn't.  It mistakenly denotes a neighbour's villa as the Murat residence.

04-Processos Vol IV Pages 957 - 958
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

Just because it's in the files doesn't necessarily make it so.



Also there is a rather good dog thread on the forum too which shows the actual route the dogs took based on the information given by their handlers (also in the files) and the pictorial record differs from the statements given.

So that pictorial information may well be inaccurate also.

No, the words of the handlers match the picture I posted. The dogs went to the car park opposite the Tapas entrance, not to the supermarket car park.

[pathfinder73]

The alert outside is a red flag  to seriously question the credibility of the alerts imo. I don't see any way remnant scent...without physical remains...could last 3 months outside...open to the elements

5. RETAINED MATERIALS, material from items (list), Hairs recovered from the fragments of bushes

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Hairs recovered from bushes is evidence. You were saying what is impossible?

[Lace]

5. RETAINED MATERIALS, material from items (list), Hairs recovered from the fragments of bushes

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Hairs recovered from bushes is evidence. You were saying what is impossible?

Where do I find where it says hairs recovered from bushes,  I can't see it in that link.  Thank you

[pathfinder73]

I provided the link. search for bushes. here it is

Date: 06-09-07

For court use only:

Rv
Exhibit number
Signed date

Justice of the peace/clerk to Court

Page 1 of 1



Processos Vol X
Page 2660

The Forensic Science Service

Expert's Index of Unused Material

FSS References : 300 655 190/400 932 184

CJS URN

Index compiled by John Robert Lowe BSc Cbiol MIBiol RFP

The following is a list of unused material in the possession of the Forensic Science Services and being managed in this case by the above named expert (note, the material should be considered to be NON - SENSITIVE, unless a specific flag exists to suggest it might be SENSITIVE). The list is provided in accordance with the guidance given in ?Disclosure: Expert?s evidence and unused material ? Guidance Booklet for Experts?.

EXPERT'S USE

Number Description of material

1. CASE NOTES made at the time of the examination of the items: provide details of dates of examinations; details of packaging and integrity of items; records of work performed on the items, who was involved and dates; analytical and test results; details of quality checks

Location: Case Files.

2. DRAFT REPORTS ' electronic and/or hard copy drafts of reports of statements sent out to the Prosecution Team.

Location: Case Files.

3. ADMINISTRATIVE DOCUMENTS time recording sheets, case costings, delivery notes, invoices, records of enquiries with customers relating to costs, etc.

Location : Case Files.

4. RECORDS of material submitted but not examined, of material examined but relating to suspects not included in reports or statements; of work carried out by others, including the results; of procedures and techniques used during the examinations.

Location: Case Files.

5. RETAINED MATERIALS, material from items (list), Hairs recovered from the fragments of bushes, tapings from the curtains, CDs of photos supplied from Portugal, DVD of scene examination supplied from Portugal, Photographs and CD of LMG + stain on tile 286/2007 CR/L 5.

Location: Case Files.

6. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION in the form of maps, plans, photographs, videos relating to the scene of the offence, details of modus operandi, details of related offences.

Location: Case Files


Completed by John Robert Lowe BSc Cbiol MIBiol RFP

Signed (Unsigned copy)

Dated 06-09-2007

[barrier]

I provided the link. search for bushes. here it is

Date: 06-09-07

For court use only:

Rv
Exhibit number
Signed date

Justice of the peace/clerk to Court

Page 1 of 1



Processos Vol X
Page 2660

The Forensic Science Service

Expert's Index of Unused Material

FSS References : 300 655 190/400 932 184

CJS URN

Index compiled by John Robert Lowe BSc Cbiol MIBiol RFP

The following is a list of unused material in the possession of the Forensic Science Services and being managed in this case by the above named expert (note, the material should be considered to be NON - SENSITIVE, unless a specific flag exists to suggest it might be SENSITIVE). The list is provided in accordance with the guidance given in ?Disclosure: Expert?s evidence and unused material ? Guidance Booklet for Experts?.

EXPERT'S USE

Number Description of material

1. CASE NOTES made at the time of the examination of the items: provide details of dates of examinations; details of packaging and integrity of items; records of work performed on the items, who was involved and dates; analytical and test results; details of quality checks

Location: Case Files.

2. DRAFT REPORTS ' electronic and/or hard copy drafts of reports of statements sent out to the Prosecution Team.

Location: Case Files.

3. ADMINISTRATIVE DOCUMENTS time recording sheets, case costings, delivery notes, invoices, records of enquiries with customers relating to costs, etc.

Location : Case Files.

4. RECORDS of material submitted but not examined, of material examined but relating to suspects not included in reports or statements; of work carried out by others, including the results; of procedures and techniques used during the examinations.

Location: Case Files.

5. RETAINED MATERIALS, material from items (list), Hairs recovered from the fragments of bushes, tapings from the curtains, CDs of photos supplied from Portugal, DVD of scene examination supplied from Portugal, Photographs and CD of LMG + stain on tile 286/2007 CR/L 5.

Location: Case Files.

6. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION in the form of maps, plans, photographs, videos relating to the scene of the offence, details of modus operandi, details of related offences.

Location: Case Files


Completed by John Robert Lowe BSc Cbiol MIBiol RFP

Signed (Unsigned copy)

Dated 06-09-2007

So did Lowe collect the hair sample is this location because the dog alerted there?

[pathfinder73]

stain on tile 286/2007 CR/L 5

A stain was also found on Madeleine's pyjama top according to Kate.

[pathfinder73]

So did Lowe collect the hair sample is this location because the dog alerted there?

That would have been evidence collected in the bushes where Eddie alerted. Lowe had nothing to do with collecting evidence in Portugal.

[barrier]

That would have been evidence collected in the bushes where Eddie alerted. Lowe had nothing to do with collecting evidence in Portugal.

Ok thanks, dogs alerted and hairs found, what are the chances.

[Mr Gray]

Ok thanks, dogs alerted and hairs found, what are the chances.

Do cadaver dogs alert to hair...might explain the coconut