Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?

[Mr Gray]

Do you really believe that Grime and Harrison believe that cadaver dog alerts are unreliable? Have they ever said they believe cadaver dog alerts to be unreliable? I know they have said they are not evidential but never unreliable.

No evidential reliability

[Icanhandlethetruth]

No evidential reliability

That's not the same thing though is it. it doesn't mean they believe the alerts to be unreliable in the way Gerry McCann did.

[Venturi Swirl]

You win some you lose some.

 It would be a failure only if the wife reappeared on a flight from Kyrgyzstan at some point in the future saying “Honey, I’m home”. Let's hope that happens, but let’s see if it does.

It’s a failure for Grime and the dogs because despite being admissable and supposedly reliable the jury rejected their evidence.  He clearly failed to convince them that when a dog alerts in the house of the accused it means they murdered someone there. 

[Venturi Swirl]

He always was a man of contradictions though wasn’t he. Stated multiple times that dog alerts were not evidence but appeared many times in court to give evidence on his dogs alerts.

Hence he, the alerts and the science cannot be relied upon to give a straight answer.  He basically throws Eddie’s alerts under the bus with that paragraph though doesn’t he?

[G-Unit]

It’s a failure for Grime and the dogs because despite being admissable and supposedly reliable the jury rejected their evidence.  He clearly failed to convince them that when a dog alerts in the house of the accused it means they murdered someone there.

Afaik Grime has never claimed that dog alerts mean a murder was committed. All he claims is that his cadaver dogs are trained to alert to cadaver odour.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

The prosecutor failed to gather enough corroberating evidence to convince the jury that a murder took place.

Once again, the evidence of the dog handler was deemed admissible as evidence, which was another confirmation that this evidence is seen as worthy of being heard.

[Venturi Swirl]

Afaik Grime has never claimed that dog alerts mean a murder was committed. All he claims is that his cadaver dogs are trained to alert to cadaver odour.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

The prosecutor failed to gather enough corroberating evidence to convince the jury that a murder took place.

Once again, the evidence of the dog handler was deemed admissible as evidence, which was another confirmation that this evidence is seen as worthy of being heard.

As Grime was a witness for the prosecution in a murder trial, what inference do you think he was trying to convince the jury that the alerts by his dogs supported? 

[Mr Gray]

That's not the same thing though is it. it doesn't mean they believe the alerts to be unreliable in the way Gerry McCann did.

I think it means exactly that

[G-Unit]

As Grime was a witness for the prosecution in a murder trial, what inference do you think he was trying to convince the jury that the alerts by his dogs supported?

His role was to testify that his dog alerted to the scent he was trained to alert to. It was the role of the prosecutor to convince the jury what the significance of the alerts was.

[Brietta]

His role was to testify that his dog alerted to the scent he was trained to alert to. It was the role of the prosecutor to convince the jury what the significance of the alerts was.

Money for old rope then.

Snip
Experts in the U.S. typically are paid on an hourly basis for their services in investigating the facts, preparing a report, and if necessary, testifying during pre-trial discovery, or at trial. Hourly fees range from approximately $200 to $750 or more per hour, varying primarily by the expert's field of expertise, and the individual expert's qualifications and reputation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_witness#Types_of_expert_witness
Not to mention the time spent working in the field which we know can mount up to quite a lot.

The only thing is that reputation is all and losing cases won't do the bank balance much good in the USA which is hoatching with experts on the doorstep.

[G-Unit]

Money for old rope then.

Snip
Experts in the U.S. typically are paid on an hourly basis for their services in investigating the facts, preparing a report, and if necessary, testifying during pre-trial discovery, or at trial. Hourly fees range from approximately $200 to $750 or more per hour, varying primarily by the expert's field of expertise, and the individual expert's qualifications and reputation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_witness#Types_of_expert_witness
Not to mention the time spent working in the field which we know can mount up to quite a lot.

The only thing is that reputation is all and losing cases won't do the bank balance much good in the USA which is hoatching with experts on the doorstep.

Grime gave evidence via a video feed from his home in Oxford. His dogs were used in 2012 when Grime was under contract to the FBI (2010-2013). One of the terms of his contract was to provide expert witness opinion in relation to casework. Consequently he may not have received payment for this testimony imo.

The US may be hoatching with experts, but in the case under discussion Grime was the go-to expert as the dogs were trained and handled by him and they were all under contract to the FBI. As he is no longer active in the US I don't think his income would be affected by anything there. Nor do I think that he lost a case; that was the prosecutor's responsibility.

[Mr Gray]

Grime gave evidence via a video feed from his home in Oxford. His dogs were used in 2012 when Grime was under contract to the FBI (2010-2013). One of the terms of his contract was to provide expert witness opinion in relation to casework. Consequently he may not have received payment for this testimony imo.

The US may be hoatching with experts, but in the case under discussion Grime was the go-to expert as the dogs were trained and handled by him and they were all under contract to the FBI. As he is no longer active in the US I don't think his income would be affected by anything there. Nor do I think that he lost a case; that was the prosecutor's responsibility.

I wonder if the American defense lawyers are familiar with what Grime said about the alerts in 2007...I can't see how his statements would not undermine his testimony

[Brietta]

Grime gave evidence via a video feed from his home in Oxford. His dogs were used in 2012 when Grime was under contract to the FBI (2010-2013). One of the terms of his contract was to provide expert witness opinion in relation to casework. Consequently he may not have received payment for this testimony imo.

The US may be hoatching with experts, but in the case under discussion Grime was the go-to expert as the dogs were trained and handled by him and they were all under contract to the FBI. As he is no longer active in the US I don't think his income would be affected by anything there. Nor do I think that he lost a case; that was the prosecutor's responsibility.

Sorry ... when exactly was the court case?

[G-Unit]

Sorry ... when exactly was the court case?

2020 eight years after the woman disappeared.

[Brietta]

2020 eight years after the woman disappeared.

That was naughty of me, I should have made it plain that my question was rhetorical.

So have the FBI been paying Martin Grime a retainer since 2013.  Or why do you think he shouldn't have been paid as an expert witness in 2020.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

I think it means exactly that

So Gerry only thought that they were unreliable from an evidentiary position and the alerts themselves could be positive alerts, because I believe this was Grime’s and Harrison’s opinions. Interesting.