Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844086 times)

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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5820 on: September 16, 2015, 11:23:15 AM »
Do you honestly think that I, let alone the rest of those of my thinking, have not considered other possibilities, even that of The McCanns being involved in some way?
Of course we have, down to the very last boring detail.  But it simply does not make sense.  The time, the place, the opportunity, or the motive.  And the absence of anything in the work of forensics to suggest this.

Whether or not Madeleine died by the hand of a stranger is something that I don't want to think about.  And why should I?  It isn't the purpose of this Forum at the moment.

Well that works two ways.

There is nothing in the forensics to suggest abduction.

As to the inconsistencies in the mccanns and others accounts of events, well I'll leave that to another time.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5821 on: September 16, 2015, 11:23:50 AM »
Brietta's post merely reflects the only scenario is 'abduction' approach.

Perhaps you should take time yet again to consider what you post before the insults fly once again.
Brietta's post didn't mention abduction once as far as I can see.  Why don't you actually read it and comment on what it says, rather than what you think it says?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5822 on: September 16, 2015, 11:24:45 AM »
Brietta's post didn't mention abduction once as far as I can see.  Why don't you actually read it and comment on what it says, rather than what you think it says?

It is well known on this forum, that abduction is the only scenario she agrees with.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5823 on: September 16, 2015, 11:28:15 AM »

I am going to start deleting if this continues.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5824 on: September 16, 2015, 11:32:01 AM »
It is well known on this forum, that abduction is the only scenario she agrees with.
Yes it is, just as your views on abduction are well known too.  Putting that aside for a minute what specifically in Brietta's post did you have a problem with?  Let's discuss that, not Brietta herself!

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5825 on: September 16, 2015, 11:33:49 AM »
RESIDUAL SCENT IN BUILDINGS

One of the questions we are commonly asked as forensic canine handlers is "How long will scent last in any given situation?" This is a very complicated question, but we want to begin to unravel the secrets. We know some of the elements that will affect residual scent are heat/sun, wind, humidity and rain.

Our first project was conducted in a closed, unused building. Items were placed in different rooms for 5 hours and then removed.

What is Residual Scent?
Residual is defined by Webster's dictionary as - leaving a residue remaining effective for some time.
Within this paper we are using the term in conjunction with decomposing human scent. Residual scent searches are those conducted when no physical form is present. Residual scent is what is left when the decomposing item has been removed. It is something we cannot see and humans cannot necessarily smell.

Introduction
This project began by accident, so was not preplanned as a residual scent research paper. We make no claims to having ruled out all variables, but are using this project to learn what the variables are and how to more effectively set up our next residual scent project.

Our goal in this paper is to look at residual scent in a closed, unused building and see if we can find out how long a trained cadaver / forensic evidence dog can locate the original scent location. All the dogs used in this project ranged from those with some basic training in the finding of cadaver scent to specialized trained dogs in forensic evidence / body recovery. We see this as just the beginning of ongoing residual scent undertakings.

On November 9, 1996 several items were placed in different areas of a building. The building used was built in the 1930's and was used as classrooms up until 1995. It is part of a large developmental hospital that was built before 1900. Most of the furniture is now gone. There is still human clothing around, chairs, desks, shelves with things on them, wardrobes, curtains, and boxes of books and general effects. The facility has been closed down and most of the buildings are scheduled to be demolished.

Room #11 was used as an activity or day room. It is a large open room. The scent sources were blood (3cc) left to dry on the floor and door in the room.
Room #16 is a closet/storage room off room #11. The scent source was blood (approx. 1cc) on paper on the floor.
Room #5 is a large storage room with closets and shelves. The scent source was a soil sample with dried fluids from a gunshot to the head suicide enclosed in a 50ml vented container. The upper window has been open the whole time in this room.
Room #18 is a large living room. Scent sources were; hair mixed with cadaver scent in the fireplace flue, and a very small amount of blood inside a trash can.
Room #9 is a tiled utility area across the hall from a kitchen area. Scent source was hair and blood in a 50ml container placed in the foot of standing ironing board, so the sample was 5 feet off the ground.

Since the original set up date on November 9, 1996, we have returned to the building 4 times: January 8, 1997, April 2, 1997, July 23, 1997 and December 7, 1997. On our visit in April we found that they had removed most of the original furniture and some boxes of trash, so the building had little left in it. Two of the objects (the ironing board and a box of trash), that had held scent sources were now missing.

Results
Each dog participating in this project was able to find most or all of the locations where the decomposing scent articles had been. We saw dogs, which varied, from full alert and pinpointing to general interest in the room or area.

What we have found so far is; residual scent will last 1 year in a building with minimum environmental influence, or human disturbance. Even after the objects where the scent source had been were removed, the dogs were able to locate the rooms, general area, or pinpoint where it had been.

Each time we have worked the problem we have included teams that had not worked the area before. We now have had 16 teams work the residual scent problem. The dogs have ranged from veteran cadaver trained certified teams to 1 year old puppies (who have been training from 8 weeks of age on cadaver and residual scent).

Observations
We noticed that there was a big difference between teams that do mainly live person searching and teams that specialize in forensic evidence / body recovery searches. The general difference being, forensic evidence / body recovery dogs are searched slower, have been taught to do a fine search, check items for scent sources, and alert without seeing an object. Most live human search dogs are trained to keep looking until they find the person and then to alert. Younger and less experienced dogs had fewer problems and were willing to commit to an alert more readily than some of the mainly live human search dogs.

Questions, Variables, Problems, Future Ideas
One of the questions that we have wondered about after observing dogs who have worked the problem prior is; do the dogs remember where items were previously placed or where they alerted before and how long do they remember?

Also, what effect does having an observer that is knowledgeable of all the locations have on the team? Can the handler and or dog read body language that gives them information as to where they should look or alert?

Plans for our next visit include having first time teams work the building by themselves without an observer on deck. The handler will then report any alerts or interest to the observer by showing them on a diagram of the building. This way the handler will have to commit to what the dog has done without any input from the observer. The observer will not be able to influence the team while they are searching.

No food reward will be allowed in the building.

Our next residual scent projects will employ measurable scent items. Example: 3cc of blood mixed with 2oz of human hair, or a specific human bone. This way we can control and repeat the scent items more closely in different conditions.

Room with the blood (3cc) is not a true residual scent problem, as we have defined it, because the blood has been left on the floor and door. But we now have data on how long dogs can locate dried blood.

Our next step in studying residual scent is to set up problems in different environments. We want to compare our results with problems set up in open areas, areas with sun and shade and no building to protect the scent.

Room #11 - dried blood - dogs able to show dried blood on door and floor

Room #5 - soil with dried fluids - dog showing
inside closet where source had been

Room #18 - Hair with scent - all dogs indicated
flue area of chimney where source had been

Room #18 - area where trash can had been - dogs all indicated
area and showed pile of curtains now on floor but had been
hanging above trash can originally. Curtains are porous and
holding scent.

http://www.csst.org/residual_scent.html

Given that the actual dimensions of the rooms are not recorded the closest equivalent to the bedroom in apartment 5A would be ...
"Room #16 is a closet/storage room off room #11. The scent source was blood (approx. 1cc) on paper on the floor."

Even that is supposition as no window or other source of ventilation is mentioned in the study.

In the study the rooms remained undisturbed;  apartment 5A was the hub of activity for other holidaymakers with cleaners during and between visits and the possibility of the patio doors being opened regularly.

But definitely a good article demonstrating the type of information to be gained from quantifiable and known sources using the dogs' nose.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5826 on: September 16, 2015, 12:04:04 PM »
Given that the actual dimensions of the rooms are not recorded the closest equivalent to the bedroom in apartment 5A would be ...
"Room #16 is a closet/storage room off room #11. The scent source was blood (approx. 1cc) on paper on the floor."

Even that is supposition as no window or other source of ventilation is mentioned in the study.

In the study the rooms remained undisturbed;  apartment 5A was the hub of activity for other holidaymakers with cleaners during and between visits and the possibility of the patio doors being opened regularly.

But definitely a good article demonstrating the type of information to be gained from quantifiable and known sources using the dogs' nose.

Dogs detect residual scent and Eddie was an expert at detecting cadaver residual scent. SY are using the dogs so I know what they think so who cares what you think.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5827 on: September 16, 2015, 12:05:15 PM »
Given that the actual dimensions of the rooms are not recorded the closest equivalent to the bedroom in apartment 5A would be ...
"Room #16 is a closet/storage room off room #11. The scent source was blood (approx. 1cc) on paper on the floor."

Even that is supposition as no window or other source of ventilation is mentioned in the study.

In the study the rooms remained undisturbed;  apartment 5A was the hub of activity for other holidaymakers with cleaners during and between visits and the possibility of the patio doors being opened regularly.

But definitely a good article demonstrating the type of information to be gained from quantifiable and known sources using the dogfs' nose.

So how long would we expect scent in the flower bed to last
Not 3 months

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5828 on: September 16, 2015, 12:39:20 PM »
So how long would we expect scent in the flower bed to last
Not 3 months

Do you mean within the plants and/or soil ?

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5829 on: September 16, 2015, 01:01:02 PM »
Dogs detect residual scent and Eddie was an expert at detecting cadaver residual scent. SY are using the dogs so I know what they think so who cares what you think.

We are told how 'expert' Eddie was at detecting residual scent ... but have we ever seen any record of the continual training exercises which are necessary to substantiate that assertion.

I am not making reference to Mrs Harron or Mr Rose ... I am making reference to the independently adjudged 'qualifications' which were produced in court to support Morse's nose.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5830 on: September 16, 2015, 01:52:46 PM »
Do you mean within the plants and/or soil ?


Surely the residue that was deposited would degrade in the soil

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5831 on: September 16, 2015, 02:40:43 PM »
I did once say, way back in the beginning that DNA wasn't all it was being cracked up to be.  Still isn't, actually.  I was subjected to a torrent of abuse which quite shocked me.  Sadly, I have become accustomed to that now.

As has been proved in this case, there are too many variables, especially in the absence of a body, which could suggest in itself that there isn't one.

And even with a 99% match, it still wouldn't prove anything, unless it was from a complete stranger.

A 99% match would be mathematically impossible.

There are 20 markers, so 19 markers (out of 20) would be 95%, the higest possible score short of 100%

Offline Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5832 on: September 16, 2015, 02:58:47 PM »
A 99% match would be mathematically impossible.

There are 20 markers, so 19 markers (out of 20) would be 95%, the higest possible score short of 100%

So other people could have the same DNA.  Unlikely in the same vicinity, but not impossible.

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5833 on: September 16, 2015, 03:27:10 PM »
So other people could have the same DNA.  Unlikely in the same vicinity, but not impossible.

I've always found it a little odd that there could be 7 other people in the world wandering around with the same 20 alleles as me. But in the UK, they only look at 10 marker areas (20 alleles) for criminal forensic purposes, unless they've added more since I blinked. So change where the test is done (i.e. a country that uses more marker sites) and that likelihood diminishes.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #5834 on: September 16, 2015, 04:47:18 PM »
So other people could have the same DNA.  Unlikely in the same vicinity, but not impossible.

Yes, and when there is, in the mix, likely to be DNA of up to 4 other people direct blood relatives (parents plus two siblings) the likelihood of a high number of alike markers is substabtially increased.