Author Topic: Former Portuguese detective Gonçalo Amaral wins appeal in damages trial.  (Read 535320 times)

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ferryman

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If Amaral and his team concluded in the Summer of 2007 that Madeleine had certainly died in the apartment perhaps you can tell me why they would put any serious effort into following up potential leads which suggested a different scenario?

Very good question.

Offline G-Unit

English Law is based on common law, where precedent prevails.  Where the common law is patently unfair then equitable (i.e. codified) remedies are introduced.

Most European countries are based on roman or civil law, which is codified.  Precedent does not apply, so there is no obligation on a court to follow the decision of any other court.

In very simplistic terms, one can say that in the UK everything is permitted except that which is expressly forbidden.

In Europe, everything is forbidden except that which is expressly permitted.

Thank you for clarifying Jean-Pierre.
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Offline Mr Gray

Not in the slightest. Not proven. That ship has sailed. It will not be considered by the Supreme Court.

I'm not talking about the court

Offline ShiningInLuz


the book contains this passage..

English and Portuguese police get together to analyse the results of Eddie and Keela's searches.

- What we can deduce at this stage is that only the McCanns are implicated. The dogs did not detect blood or cadaver odour other than with them.

- From now on we have the certainty that there was a body behind the sofa before being taken into the parents' bedroom.

- If the blood found behind the sofa is that of the little girl, we can assume that she died there.


Amaral states with certainty there was a body behind the sofa before being taken into the parents bedroom...no theorem...with certainty...you have read the book 3 times...have you not noticed this


amaral goes on to say this body is maddie...how anyone can say that amaral stating this has not harmed the search is beyond comprehension
The book has many passages, about which people are free to make up their own minds.

Did or did not the dogs alert to anything other than that associated with the McCanns?  I am not aware of any other alert.

"From now on we have certainty ..."  Sorry, which chapter?  I will be happy to re-read it.

"If the blood ..."  Personally, I note the word 'if'.  Not - 'there was blood and it was Madeleine's'.  But 'if'.  While of course Madeleine's blood behind the couch would not convince me of Madeleine's demise behind the couch.

If you tell me which chapter, I will be happy to go back and review it again.
What's up, old man?

Offline Mr Gray

The book has many passages, about which people are free to make up their own minds.

Did or did not the dogs alert to anything other than that associated with the McCanns?  I am not aware of any other alert.

"From now on we have certainty ..."  Sorry, which chapter?  I will be happy to re-read it.

"If the blood ..."  Personally, I note the word 'if'.  Not - 'there was blood and it was Madeleine's'.  But 'if'.  While of course Madeleine's blood behind the couch would not convince me of Madeleine's demise behind the couch.

If you tell me which chapter, I will be happy to go back and review it again.

chapter 16...


Amralal was lead detective...if he states with certainty there was a body in 5a then people will believe him. He completely ignores what Grime says about the alerts

If amaral and his team believed with certainty taht maddie died in 5a and the parents covered up an accident...would they really investigate other scenarios

Offline Miss Taken Identity

chapter 16...


Amralal was lead detective...if he states with certainty there was a body in 5a then people will believe him. He completely ignores what Grime says about the alerts

If amaral and his team believed with certainty taht maddie died in 5a and the parents covered up an accident...would they really investigate other scenarios

They would have to look at ALL scenarios, their belief is just a belief, It is only a thesis. nothing to get all bothered about really. Why all the fuss about suing is beyond me.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Mr Gray

They would have to look at ALL scenarios, their belief is just a belief, It is only a thesis. nothing to get all bothered about really. Why all the fuss about suing is beyond me.

amaral states with certainty...he does not talk of belief or a thesis

Offline Carana

In another thread Ferryman posted "... Of the course the book harmed the search for Madeleine by stating, categorically, that Madeleine is dead and telling people (who read it) the McCanns knew she was dead. ... "

I asked for info about the 'categorically'.

Ferryman was kind enough to direct me to the final chapter of TOTL, which I have now re-read, so here is my response.

The final chapter, chapter 23, at least in English, would probably fall foul of current moderation re libel, as applied in this forum.

His view on Jane Tanner's statement is sailing close to the wind.  "Jane Tanner's witness statement in favour of the theory of abduction is probably false: little by little it has lost all credibility because of successive modifications introduced by Jane, modifications that have ended up invalidating it."  On balance, I think it would scrape through on a combo of 'probably', plus the supporting evidence.

His cherry picking re dogs and lab evidence would probably get flushed, so I will not quote it.  Suffice to say he is mistakenly depicting the dogs and does not cover final lab evidence.

I'm not aware of what the actual position was when Amaral was taken off the case.  Is this an 'accurate' reflection of what was known in the investigation at the time, or is it not only inaccurate but also was known to be inaccurate at the time?

Possibly the crunchiest bit starts  "The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:"

Without going into detail, a summary involves Madeleine dying (probably by accident) and the McCanns being involved in concealment of the body.

This happens to be a theorem.  It happens to be a theorem that appears to have some public support.  It happens to be one of several theories that have some public support.

So for me, the test is simple.  Did Gonçalo and team arrive at such conclusions?  Not, are the conclusions accurate or inaccurate.  Not do they stand up to scrutiny with 2016 knowledge.  Not even did they stack up at the time Mr Amaral was removed.  Just does it accurately reflect the thinking of Amaral et al whenever he got hoiked in 2007?

I do not know, under Portuguese or English defamations laws, how long you can keep repeating a 2007 view without making clear it reflects a 2007 position.

I think Mr Amaral would need a minor revision of chapter 23 to get it through current libel laws, and to get it past moderation on this forum.  However, I don't think the original book has any mileage left in it as a commercial product, so I think it will drift into the history of 2008.

I agree with most of that SIL, except that it's not just a single chapter that would need changing, IMO.

If he corrected his numerous "misunderstandings", there wouldn't be much left, IMO.

I still think that he could have written a best-seller in a different way. He could have moaned to his heart's content about finding himself in charge of a case that had quickly become a media frenzy and that he found himself without the resources to deal with it.

Instead, he chose to take the high road and insist that his "understanding" has to be what actually happened and has plonked himself on every matinée TV show that would accept him.

I think I lost any respect at that point.

Sorry if that offends anyone.

Offline Miss Taken Identity

They would have to look at ALL scenarios, their belief is just a belief, It is only a thesis. nothing to get all bothered about really. Why all the fuss about suing is beyond me.

They would have to look at ALL scenarios, their belief is just a belief, It is only a thesis.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline G-Unit

I'm not talking about the court

Perhaps a nod to the title of the thread would be nice? Is there a thread to discuss the merits of the book elsewhere perhaps?

I repeat, it has no bearing on the 'libel' trial at this stage. The McCanns said it harmed the search, the Fund Directors said the same. The supporters think it did. It wasn't proved, so it's all just opinion.
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Offline G-Unit

amaral states with certainty...he does not talk of belief or a thesis

The McCanns stated abduction with certainty.
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Offline Carana

chapter 16...


Amralal was lead detective...if he states with certainty there was a body in 5a then people will believe him. He completely ignores what Grime says about the alerts

If amaral and his team believed with certainty taht maddie died in 5a and the parents covered up an accident...would they really investigate other scenarios

Yes, that's my problem as well. If casual readers assume that he knows what he was talking about, then obviously they will assume that his (frankly bizarre, IMO) understanding of numerous aspects must be correct.

And both he and the tabloids, including the tabloid TV shows have a tendency to "forget" that his spoutings simply don't reflect what could be ascertained following his 5-month stint on the case.

ferryman

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Perhaps a nod to the title of the thread would be nice? Is there a thread to discuss the merits of the book elsewhere perhaps?

I repeat, it has no bearing on the 'libel' trial at this stage. The McCanns said it harmed the search, the Fund Directors said the same. The supporters think it did. It wasn't proved, so it's all just opinion.

Not sure the first-instance judge said anything about the search; just the investigation, which she said, wasn't harmed by the book, unsurprisingly, since the book was released for sale after the investigation was shelved.

Was there mention of the search in the appeal-court ruling?

Offline Mr Gray

They would have to look at ALL scenarios, their belief is just a belief, It is only a thesis.

amaral stated it as a certainty

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Perhaps a nod to the title of the thread would be nice? Is there a thread to discuss the merits of the book elsewhere perhaps?

I repeat, it has no bearing on the 'libel' trial at this stage. The McCanns said it harmed the search, the Fund Directors said the same. The supporters think it did. It wasn't proved, so it's all just opinion.

Yes, without providing any evidence at all.None. zilch. Nada.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin