Brexit has well and truly begun!

[G-Unit]

What type of border is illegal under international law?

The border which would emerge between Northern Ireland as part of a UK which was outside the EU and the Republic of Ireland as inside the EU.

[Carana]

Here's an example for Derren Brown (short version).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg

I'll add a better link if I find one again. There's also another one that involves a toy shop. Don't want to spoil it if you haven't seen it.

[Angelo222]

I read something early this morning, but have since lost the link, about how the Irish referendum on abortion was conducted. IIRC, people were apparently given all the information they needed to make an informed decision, before it took place.

Whether that's true or not, I don't see how any referendum is fair if people don't have all the information in advance.

For that reason, I disagree with the argument of "we already had a referendum, and a majority chose to leave".

No one, not even the government, knew what it would entail. And although a Select Committee inquiry found that dodgy tactics were used by the Leave campaign (Cambridge Analytica...), few seem to be questioning whether targeted groups of people were influenced by messages mostly based on lies.

The marketing techniques used on FB, etc., are as insidious as tabloid headlines that penetrate the subconscious, whether you read the article or not. The 21st century equivalent of subliminal advertising.

So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and a it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the rest of the world without incurring EU tariffs.

The EU isn't working any more, half of Europe is either bankrupt or slowly going bankrupt. Unemployment in Spain, Portugal and Italy is completely out of control.  Why on earth would we ever want to be part of that disaster any more?

[G-Unit]

I read something early this morning, but have since lost the link, about how the Irish referendum on abortion was conducted. IIRC, people were apparently given all the information they needed to make an informed decision, before it took place.

Whether that's true or not, I don't see how any referendum is fair if people don't have all the information in advance.

For that reason, I disagree with the argument of "we already had a referendum, and a majority chose to leave".

No one, not even the government, knew what it would entail. And although a Select Committee inquiry found that dodgy tactics were used by the Leave campaign (Cambridge Analytica...), few seem to be questioning whether targeted groups of people were influenced by messages mostly based on lies.

The marketing techniques used on FB, etc., are as insidious as tabloid headlines that penetrate the subconscious, whether you read the article or not. The 21st century equivalent of subliminal advertising.

The facts about abortion are fairly easy to disseminate and understand unless you get involved in a theological argument. Quite different from Brexit imo.

[G-Unit]

I heard on the radio that Jeremy Corbyn voted to leave in 1975 and has consistently voted against EU membership ever since.  I imagine he is in a bit of a bind at present. Go with his heart or try to gain power.  He so far is trying to gain power, which is all our political classes seem to care about IMO.

Being a back bench MP is very different from being leader of your Party.

[Carana]

The border which would emerge between Northern Ireland as part of a UK which was outside the EU and the Republic of Ireland as inside the EU.

Is there an international law against that possibility?

[Carana]

The facts about abortion are fairly easy to disseminate and understand unless you get involved in a theological argument. Quite different from Brexit imo.

More so, certainly.

But wouldn't it have been better to hold a referendum once the options and the consequences of each had been worked out so that the GBP actually knew what they were voting for?

[G-Unit]

So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the world outside EU tariffs.

All I see are a lot of people who expected the electorate to vote to remain screaming and kicking because the electorate didn't vote the way they wanted them to.

[Carana]

So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and a it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the rest of the world without incurring EU tariffs.

The EU isn't working any more, half of Europe is either bankrupt or slowly going bankrupt. Unemployment in Spain, Portugal and Italy is completely out of control.  Why on earth would we ever want to be part of that disaster any more?

What's this thing about Germans? They're one of 28 members.

[G-Unit]

Is there an international law against that possibility?

As I understand it the treaties between the UK, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are enforceable under international law.

[G-Unit]

More so, certainly.

But wouldn't it have been better to hold a referendum once the options and the consequences of each had been worked out so that the GBP actually knew what they were voting for?

Was it discussed when the Referendim Bill was voted through Parliament? I don't know if it was or not.

[Angelo222]

What's this thing about Germans? They're one of 28 members.

Maybe you haven't noticed but they run the EU.

Institutionally, the EU has become Germany writ large. The Commission, the European Parliament, European Council, and the European Court of Justice mirror the decentralized structure of Germany itself. The EU’s gospel of “subsidiarity” reflects the division of powers between Germany’s federal government and states (Länder). Germany ensures that Germans fill the leading positions in EU bodies. The EU rules through its institutions, but the German government rules those institutions.

http://www.atimes.com/article/really-runs-european-union-germany-thats/

[Brietta]

Probably because no-one expected the result they got. I was reading about the 1975 referendum where the question was whether to stay in or leave. Leaving then was supported by the left, on the whole. Tony Benn led the Leave campaign and it was supported by the SNP and the DUP. How times change.

There were idiots on both sides in the Troubles who blew people up. Some may have used the border to escape justice, others didn't. I don't understand how a strict border would lead to a rise in sectarian violence. In any case such a border is illegal under international law.

It was never all about 'sectarianism' in Northern Ireland ... anyone who has even the slightest knowledge about 'the troubles' has an awareness of the potential for division and criminality presented by the reintroduction of an unpoliceable border.
People who have lived with it are expressing fear that the very fine balance which is presently being enjoyed from the terrors of the past will be compromised.  I think a little research confirms that.

"It was the first time I had been to Northern Ireland since my friend, Bridie, wet herself when a British soldier pointed a gun at her. A bunch of 10-year-olds on a school trip, our bus was searched at the border."
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-good-friday-agreement-northern-ireland-troubles-violence-ira-border-a8297406.html

[Carana]

All I see are a lot of people who expected the electorate to vote to remain screaming and kicking because the electorate didn't vote the way they wanted them to.

Fair enough. What I see is that a proportion of people didn't actually understand the implications of what they were voting for.

How many people who've needed the NHS, for themselves, or a loved one, or indeed staff, may have been targeted with messages about immigrants taking up resources and the infamous £350m slogan?

What about those who supported local fishing communities who didn't realise that the fish in their Fish'n'chips wasn't caught of their coast anyway?

What about those who voted to end freedom of movement for foreigners who didn't realise that it would restrict their own freedom of movement as well?

What about those who didn't realise that it would also mean less security, instead of more?

[Eleanor]

Fair enough. What I see is that a proportion of people didn't actually understand the implications of what they were voting for.

How many people who've needed the NHS, for themselves, or a loved one, or indeed staff, may have been targeted with messages about immigrants taking up resources and the infamous £350m slogan?

What about those who supported local fishing communities who didn't realise that the fish in their Fish'n'chips wasn't caught of their coast anyway?

What about those who voted to end freedom of movement for foreigners who didn't realise that it would restrict their own freedom of movement as well?

What about those who didn't realise that it would also mean less security, instead of more?

This was always going to be a problem.  No one can immediately see what could or will happen if Britain leaves The EU.  Just as no one saw what would happen when Britain joined.

Each side promotes its own agenda, and covers up the bad bits, some of which they are undoubtedly aware of.

Theresa May as a Remainer probably knows more about the Brexit bad bits.