UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Rachel Granada on November 02, 2013, 03:58:47 PM
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If I may make a contribution on the question of the priest, it is quite right that in the UK priests are called out at times of need, not just when someone has passed away.
This is also true of other religions as my Mum's local Methodist minister has called round to offer prayers and support when there has been a crisis or illness in the family - so it's not just for when people have died.
A cultural difference between the UK and Portugal, perhaps.
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Your insistence on ignoring the fact that in this country a priest is NOT called only when a death has occurred, but offers spiritual support on other occasions as part of their Pastoral Care is becoming tedious. What is there NOT to understand about that. S. Batista obviously was not aware and so her comment was based on her ignorance of the situation. You have been made aware and yet apparently refuse to ackowledge it. Inexplicable.
You insist on not understanding that the priest was Portuguese, didn't speak English, was a complete stranger to the McCanns and was sleeping. You insist also on neglecting the fact that Mrs McCann had already woken up a priest, a British one, who spoke English, and was a friend.
It's a deliberate nonsense to suggest that this priest's prayers weren't sufficient ! Once step more and you will pretend that God didn't listen, as it seems, because in Portugal He would only listen to Portuguese priests !
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You insist on not understanding that the priest was Portuguese, didn't speak English, was a complete stranger to the McCanns and was sleeping. You insist also on neglecting the fact that Mrs McCann had already woken up a priest, a British one, who spoke English, and was a friend.
It's a deliberate nonsense to suggest that this priest's prayers weren't sufficient ! Once step more and you will pretend that God didn't listen, as it seems, because in Portugal He would only listen to Portuguese priests !
Anne, at a time of crisis, the more prayers and spiritual support the better! Be those prayers and support from the UK, Portugal or wherever. Perhaps the local priest was requested because he could get there immediately.
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I am failing to see why a Catholic calling for a priest is a sign of guilt of anything.
Ridiculous!
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You are not Jane Tanner either, or S. Batista or Kate McCann and yet you purport to know better than anyone else about them and their actions - but you produce no evidence - and ignore the evidence presented to you. I know of no-one else who claimed that JT could not have seen a man crossing the road where she said she did.
You better calm down, Benice, as I never said someone was wrong, you said it of Mrs Batista with no evidence whatsoever.
And as I told you before, I'll never let you spread myths. You're not only a believer, you're a worshipper, and that's fine as long as you don't pretend that your beliefs are facts.
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If I may make a contribution on the question of the priest, it is quite right that in the UK priests are called out at times of need, not just when someone has passed away.
This is also true of other religions as my Mum's local Methodist minister has called round to offer prayers and support when there has been a crisis or illness in the family - so it's not just for when people have died.
A cultural difference between the UK and Portugal, perhaps.
I was just going to comment on that. I've never heared of a priest being called out for anything other than a death.
I'm not religious but my first husbands family were Catholics. The impression I got was that the priest was some kind of superior being and bothering him for anything less would have been unheard of.
We live in a city. Rachel does your Mum live somewhere other than a city? I'm wondering if it's the difference between a large and a small community?
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I was just going to comment on that. I've never heared of a priest being called out for anything other than a death.
I'm not religious but my first husbands family were Catholics. The impression I got was that the priest was some kind of superior being and bothering him for anything less would have been unheard of.
We live in a city. Rachel does your Mum live somewhere other than a city? I'm wondering if it's the difference between a large and a small community?
"Bothering" any priest, even my parish one, were my child missing would be expected within my family. In fact, my priest would offer support and help as soon as he was aware. Priests are regularly called out for plenty other than deaths.
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Anne, at a time of crisis, the more prayers and spiritual support the better! Be those prayers and support from the UK, Portugal or wherever. Perhaps the local priest was requested because he could get there immediately.
Their friends and family managed to get in contact with the media, why didn't they ask them to call as many UK priests as possible ?
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Their friends and family managed to get in contact with the media, why didn't they ask them to call as many UK priests as possible ?
Because they were in Portugal?????
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I was just going to comment on that. I've never heared of a priest being called out for anything other than a death.
I'm not religious but my first husbands family were Catholics. The impression I got was that the priest was some kind of superior being and bothering him for anything less would have been unheard of.
We live in a city. Rachel does your Mum live somewhere other than a city? I'm wondering if it's the difference between a large and a small community?
I guess things could depend on the individual priest, community etc Cariad. My Mum lives in a large town and is a life-long member of the Methodist church. I remember the local minister calling round at times of crisis and illness to offer prayers and support, as well as after bereavements.
I've also heard from Catholic and Jewish friends that the local priest/rabbi would be called for support and prayer at a time of crisis, as well as after a bereavement.
I think this could be a cultural difference between the UK and Portugal, to be honest.
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I was just going to comment on that. I've never heared of a priest being called out for anything other than a death.
I'm not religious but my first husbands family were Catholics. The impression I got was that the priest was some kind of superior being and bothering him for anything less would have been unheard of.
We live in a city. Rachel does your Mum live somewhere other than a city? I'm wondering if it's the difference between a large and a small community?
You understandably call a priest you know in the middle of the night in a case of affliction, because only a priest who knows you will have the words able to give you some peace. But you don't call a complete stranger, unless ritual for the dying ones has to be performed. It seems that, otherwise, the soul doesn't go straight to heaven ?
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I guess things could depend on the individual priest, community etc Cariad. My Mum lives in a large town and is a life-long member of the Methodist church. I remember the local minister calling round at times of crisis and illness to offer prayers and support, as well as after bereavements.
I've also heard from Catholic and Jewish friends that the local priest/rabbi would be called for support and prayer at a time of crisis, as well as after a bereavement.
I think this could be a cultural difference between the UK and Portugal, to be honest.
I think this is right, Rachel. It depends on the community and the place.
In a religious community, people are calling on their leaders and advisors on a regular basis, about matters big and small.
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Their friends and family managed to get in contact with the media, why didn't they ask them to call as many UK priests as possible ?
If you don't mind me saying Anne, I find that comment rather facetious. A local priest could obviously get there quickly to offer support and Father Seddon was on his way.
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You understandably call a priest you know in the middle of the night in a case of affliction, because only a priest who knows you will have the words able to give you some peace. But you don't call a complete stranger, unless ritual for the dying ones has to be performed. It seems that, otherwise, the soul doesn't go straight to heaven ?
Wrong.
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You understandably call a priest you know in the middle of the night in a case of affliction, because only a priest who knows you will have the words able to give you some peace. But you don't call a complete stranger, unless ritual for the dying ones has to be performed. It seems that, otherwise, the soul doesn't go straight to heaven ?
...or to hell. It's warmer.
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If you don't mind me saying Anne, I find that comment rather facetious. A local priest could obviously get there quickly to offer support and Father Seddon was on his way.
Is God a physical affair ?
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You insist on not understanding that the priest was Portuguese, didn't speak English, was a complete stranger to the McCanns and was sleeping. You insist also on neglecting the fact that Mrs McCann had already woken up a priest, a British one, who spoke English, and was a friend.
It's a deliberate nonsense to suggest that this priest's prayers weren't sufficient ! Once step more and you will pretend that God didn't listen, as it seems, because in Portugal He would only listen to Portuguese priests !
It would seem the priest in question doesn't agree with you and had no problem at all in understanding their need for the physical presence of a priest - and willingly attended the McCanns to give them spiritual support and comfort - nor did he consider the language barrier to be a problem to doing that.
Translation of Father Pachecos Statement to the PJ 30th October 2007
Jose Manuel Conceicao Pacheco
The first time he had contact with the McCann's was on 5th May at about 19.00. This was a personal contact with them in the Ocean Club at their apartment, but not the apartment Madeleine disappeared from. They were accompanied by members of the holiday group. This was an important meeting for the McCann's and which had not been possible to the fact that they were busy.
He knows that on the fateful night the McCann's requested the presence of a priest, but he was only informed the following morning.On the 5th, the theme they talked about was the disappearance and he gave all possible spiritual comfort and they prayed together. They also agreed that the couple would go to the church the following day to attend a mass.
He also prayed with the McCann's on the 6th and 8th May in their apartment.
He gave them the key to the church on the 7th or 8th May upon the suggestion of John Geraghty, a resident of the parish, so that they could calmly go to the church without any media pressure. Someone from the church gave the key to John Geraghty, who then passed it on to the McCann's, with Father Pacheco's permission.
He does not remember the date upon which the key was returned.
Other contact with the McCann's took place at the end of mass when he would comfort them.
He would also meet with the McCann's after they returned from their trips and remembered they were animated when they returned from Morocco as they thought they would Madeleine there. He also comforted Kate when the news of a child buried in Arau broke, as she revealed great nervousness and anxiety, thinking that the child had died.
When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.
He never talked to them alone.
He states that they showed great suffering to the loss of their daughter.
He adds that a parish bulletin was published giving spiritual, moral and human support to the couple and to other missing children.
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You insist on not understanding that the priest was Portuguese, didn't speak English, was a complete stranger to the McCanns and was sleeping. You insist also on neglecting the fact that Mrs McCann had already woken up a priest, a British one, who spoke English, and was a friend.
It's a deliberate nonsense to suggest that this priest's prayers weren't sufficient ! Once step more and you will pretend that God didn't listen, as it seems, because in Portugal He would only listen to Portuguese priests !
You do tell em, Anne!
The first time I heard of Madeleines disappearance was in the early morning of Friday 4th May 2007.
I received a phone call from Linda who told me what had happened, and I immediately sent a text message to Kates mobile, telling her that my prayers were with them. I received a reply almost immediately and I remember Kate wrote that she felt as if the ?world was about to fall apart?.
At about 1.30 that morning Kate called me in a state of great agitation. I tried to calm her as well as I could saying that Madeleine could have had a bout of sleepwalking and that she would be all right. I remember that Kate was worried by the fact that Madeleine was wearing short sleeved pyjamas and that she could catch a cold. I felt that only a mother could think like that and say such a thing. I could perceive the trauma that Kate was experiencing from her voice. I led with prayers and other situations in my role as priest.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_SEDDEN.htm
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Their friends and family managed to get in contact with the media, why didn't they ask them to call as many UK priests as possible ?
Well actually they did. They asked all their friends to contact family members and their priests and for all of them to offer prayers for Madeleine's safe return. It's all in the Madeleine book.
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You do tell em, Anne!
The first time I heard of Madeleines disappearance was in the early morning of Friday 4th May 2007.
I received a phone call from Linda who told me what had happened, and I immediately sent a text message to Kates mobile, telling her that my prayers were with them. I received a reply almost immediately and I remember Kate wrote that she felt as if the ?world was about to fall apart?.
At about 1.30 that morning Kate called me in a state of great agitation. I tried to calm her as well as I could saying that Madeleine could have had a bout of sleepwalking and that she would be all right. I remember that Kate was worried by the fact that Madeleine was wearing short sleeved pyjamas and that she could catch a cold. I felt that only a mother could think like that and say such a thing. I could perceive the trauma that Kate was experiencing from her voice. I led with prayers and other situations in my role as priest.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_SEDDEN.htm
That's the behaviour you surely expect from a priest who knows you. Weren't Paul Sedden's words the best support ?
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That's the behaviour you surely expect from a priest who knows you. Weren't Paul Sedden's words the best support ?
He wasn't available and the other Father was. They wanted the support of a priest. He went. Neither was best, the one available went to their aid.
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Well actually they did. They asked all their friends to contact family members and their priests and for all of them to offer prayers for Madeleine's safe return. It's all in the Madeleine book.
Yes, then why would they require Father Pacheco's presence in the dead of night ? I think he didn't even live in PDL. If there was no dying person, the only emergency reason I can imagine is confession. But apparently Father Pacheco never heard them in confession "perhaps because they only spoke English" and never was alone with them.
This priest had some problems with his hierarchy that have never been clarified, possibly related to the Vatican's step backwards.
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Yes, then why would they require Father Pacheco's presence in the dead of night ? I think he didn't even live in PDL. If there was no dying person, the only emergency reason I can imagine is confession. But apparently Father Pacheco never heard them in confession "perhaps because they only spoke English" and never was alone with them.
This priest had some problems with his hierarchy that have never been clarified, possibly related to the Vatican's step backwards.
He went because he was able to and because they wanted the comfort of a priest. Confession wasn't the emergency, the comfort of their religion was.
Even asking for a priest is evidence of their guilt now. It's ridiculous.
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That's the behaviour you surely expect from a priest who knows you. Weren't Paul Sedden's words the best support ?
Anne, at a time of crisis believe me the words of any clergy are very much needed. Be they a priest, rabbi, vicar or imam.
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Susan Healy: 'Kate phoned me, errm… about an hour after Gerry and asked me to get in touch with, errm… Paul Seddon, who is the priest, Father Seddon, who married her, who baptised Madeleine, errm… and I didn't have his mobile phone so I rang a friend of Kate's and got… got him and he rang Kate right away and I think as soon as this happened, as soon as Kate realised what had happened, it was as if, errm.. she started to ask God right away to give her Madeleine. Errm… because Kate and Gerry were not the most devout family. We do have Catholic faith, errm… it's… it's the religion that we were brought up in, but I would never describe myself as a devout person. We're just ordinary people, errm… but Kate certainly has… has clung to her religion, errm.. since this happened. Possibly she feels that, you know, it has to be a greater thing that helps us to get Madeleine back. Errm… something with more power than… than we have.'
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Was the priest wearing pyjamas? Well, Seddon probably was .....though not frilly lol
Perhaps the thread needs to be split!
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I think this is right, Rachel. It depends on the community and the place.
In a religious community, people are calling on their leaders and advisors on a regular basis, about matters big and small.
Yes indeed Sherlock, those who have faith no matter what faith that may be, will call on leaders for advice and guidance in times of joy and sorrow.
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Yes indeed Sherlock, those who have faith no matter what faith that may be, will call on leaders for advice and guidance in times of joy and sorrow.
I was told that faith itself was able to move mountains..
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Was the priest wearing pyjamas? Well, Seddon probably was .....though not frilly lol
Perhaps the thread needs to be split!
I always thought that Seddon was a smart guy. He's the only one who said Madeleine was adventurous (which the monster episode seems to confirm).
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If I may make a contribution on the question of the priest, it is quite right that in the UK priests are called out at times of need, not just when someone has passed away.
This is also true of other religions as my Mum's local Methodist minister has called round to offer prayers and support when there has been a crisis or illness in the family - so it's not just for when people have died.
A cultural difference between the UK and Portugal, perhaps.
Not in my very catholic family. Maybe the Scots/Irish are different, I don't know....
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Not in my very catholic family. Maybe the Scots/Irish are different, I don't know....
Yes I think we can sum this up as cultural differences, Luz.
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I think this is right, Rachel. It depends on the community and the place.
In a religious community, people are calling on their leaders and advisors on a regular basis, about matters big and small.
Yes. One term is "pastoral care".
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Consulates have a list of priests of various religions who speak the language of their nationals. Through their emergency number you can call a priest and ask him to put himself in a taxi if physical contact is needed.
What are cell phones made for ?
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I am Catholic and of southern Irish decent (not that this makes a difference) but from my experience the most commonly known time we seek guidance, prayers or blessing from a priest is when a loved one has passed away or is terminally ill/on death bed... I find it odd that the parents were asking for a priest so early.. but this is just my opinion..
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I am Catholic and of southern Irish decent (not that this makes a difference) but from my experience the most commonly known time we seek guidance, prayers or blessing from a priest is when a loved one has passed away or is terminally ill/on death bed... I find it odd that the parents were asking for a priest so early.. but this is just my opinion..
I'm not a Catholic - but my partner of 20 years is and I must agree with the above. A good friend of mine is a Vicar (C of E) and he is called upon quite a bit for pastoral care - but not at 3 in the morning. People tend to wait for a Godly hour before contacting him unless it is a matter of life and death.
N
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Even when kate mccann got a priest she complained his was too smiley lolol
and added not that it matters but it mattered enough for her to complain about it in her book, he wasnt grieving looking enough
I mean honestly, she dams and complains and casts aspersions against many in her book, but the bleeding priest as well?
LOL how rotten!!!
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I'm not a Catholic - but my partner of 20 years is and I must agree with the above. A good friend of mine is a Vicar (C of E) and he is called upon quite a bit for pastoral care - but not at 3 in the morning. People tend to wait for a Godly hour before contacting him unless it is a matter of life and death.
N
Who knows how we would react ? But Yes it does seem strange, a priest wouldn't be a priority for me, i would still be out frantically searching...
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Who knows how we would react ? But Yes it does seem strange, a priest wouldn't be a priority for me, i would still be out frantically searching...
well you are not kate are you ...people deal with things in different ways ...
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deleted.
Mistaken identity. Misinformation taken off Joana Morais blogspot
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/british-priest-staged-everything.html
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Who knows how we would react ? But Yes it does seem strange, a priest wouldn't be a priority for me, i would still be out frantically searching...
How rediculous.
They had to be around in case Madeleine turned up or the Police wanted to contact them ... and in a desperate situation like that, they wouldn't have been able to face searching. They were totally and utterly distraught.
They knew everyone had been out there thoroughly searching. And you can bet your bottom dollar that in their hearts they knew Madekleine had been taken; that she was gone far away from the immediate area.
It is very easy to keep criticizing when you haven't been there. And hopefully none of us have
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Father Manuel Pacheco
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/SkuTdpILUBI/AAAAAAAAGZA/pPGNVPtDbKM/s200/Father+hubbard.jpg)
Well he aint my cup o tea, but as a priest I guess looks dont matter too much
That isn't Father Pacheco, Sadie. Its Father Hubbard
Father Pacheco
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3vjPR5Aj6PfAdHwuU9Pjsek3itZU27IUDzRdCZvQVjtIj9QohFw)
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How rediculous.
They had to be around in case Madeleine turned up or the Police wanted to contact them ... and in a desperate situation like that, they wouldn't have been able to face searching. They were totally and utterly distraught.
They knew everyone had been out there thoroughly searching. And you can bet your bottom dollar that in their hearts they knew Madekleine had been taken; that she was gone far away from the immediate area.
It is very easy to keep criticizing when you haven't been there. And hopefully none of us have
... No, no, no... I'm not having that, I will never forget when my 2 year old daughter went missing.. a neighbour called to see my husband and didn't close the door behind him properly... You can imagine what happened next.. My world turned upside down, after searching the house i ran down the street searching all my neighbours gardens, she was nowhere to be seen.. I didn't even have time to go back into the house to call the police, instead I shouted orders for one of my neighbours to ring.... I was 9 months pregnant at the time and nobody would have stopped me looking untill i found her... Police arrived (plain clothed) asked me what my little girl was wearing etc etc..I was frantic.. 1 hour later we found her, thank God.... So Yes, i think i have an idea of what it could be like..
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I think you are right DCI
I got it from Joana Morais blogspot
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/british-priest-staged-everything.html
McCann Case: 'The British Priest Staged Everything' 1 July 2009 | Posted by Joana Morais Leave a Comment
We went to Praia da Luz to speak with Father José Manuel – the priest of the local church – who accompanied all the sequence of events, lived after the disappearance of the English girl. Refuting all knowledge regarding the whereabouts of the blanket, the Father also denies the insinuations against his past.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/SkuTdpILUBI/AAAAAAAAGZA/pPGNVPtDbKM/s200/Father+hubbard.jpg) Have you participated in all of the British community celebrations?
-In all.
And, specifically, you participated in religious acts for the girl Madeleine. Have you ever noticed in the existence of a pink blanket that belonged to the child?
- I participated, but I don’t know anything. The British priest, called by Madeleine parents, it was him who celebrated all the masses. In that context, the only thing that I could do for her was to pray. The other priest is the one who knows a lot – and he staged everything – it was him who made statements and who spoke to the PJ.
But, where could Maddie’s blanket be?
-It would be good to know, it’s possible that the other priest and the PJ know.
The PJ doesn’t know. Does that mean that they have ‘lost’ the evidence?
- I don’t know anything; I only know that, when everything was too ‘hot’, various stories were told, badly told and even more about me: that I was ‘exiled’ to the Vatican to speak with the Pope… Just because I missed 2 or three days, I was made an ‘exiled’.
Was it normal to hand out the church keys?
- It’s not me who decides. [silence]
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/SkuTQxAvr_I/AAAAAAAAGY4/xpDFV6CVWGI/s200/Fatherjosepacheco.jpg)
There are some who have accused you of, when you where at the Gaia Seminary, having participated in act of harassment and sexual abuse.
- It’s all a lie; the media have nothing else to do. It is easy to attack the image of a priest. But, at this moment the defamers are being sued.
in Semanário Privado, 1 July 2009 - Paper Editon Only
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SNIP/-(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/SkuTQxAvr_I/AAAAAAAAGY4/xpDFV6CVWGI/s200/Fatherjosepacheco.jpg)
There are some who have accused you of, when you where at the Gaia Seminary, having participated in act of harassment and sexual abuse.
- It’s all a lie; the media have nothing else to do. It is easy to attack the image of a priest. But, at this moment the defamers are being sued.
in Semanário Privado, 1 July 2009 - Paper Editon Only
And this shows a document, I think, about the alleged abuse
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id259.html
Top LH one, maybe others, I think. I dont speak PT
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I think you are right DCI
I got it from Joana Morais blogspot
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/british-priest-staged-everything.html
McCann Case: 'The British Priest Staged Everything' 1 July 2009 | Posted by Joana Morais Leave a Comment
We went to Praia da Luz to speak with Father José Manuel – the priest of the local church – who accompanied all the sequence of events, lived after the disappearance of the English girl. Refuting all knowledge regarding the whereabouts of the blanket, the Father also denies the insinuations against his past.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/SkuTdpILUBI/AAAAAAAAGZA/pPGNVPtDbKM/s200/Father+hubbard.jpg) Have you participated in all of the British community celebrations?
-In all.
And, specifically, you participated in religious acts for the girl Madeleine. Have you ever noticed in the existence of a pink blanket that belonged to the child?
- I participated, but I don’t know anything. The British priest, called by Madeleine parents, it was him who celebrated all the masses. In that context, the only thing that I could do for her was to pray. The other priest is the one who knows a lot – and he staged everything – it was him who made statements and who spoke to the PJ.
But, where could Maddie’s blanket be?
-It would be good to know, it’s possible that the other priest and the PJ know.
The PJ doesn’t know. Does that mean that they have ‘lost’ the evidence?
- I don’t know anything; I only know that, when everything was too ‘hot’, various stories were told, badly told and even more about me: that I was ‘exiled’ to the Vatican to speak with the Pope… Just because I missed 2 or three days, I was made an ‘exiled’.
Was it normal to hand out the church keys?
- It’s not me who decides. [silence]
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/SkuTQxAvr_I/AAAAAAAAGY4/xpDFV6CVWGI/s200/Fatherjosepacheco.jpg)
There are some who have accused you of, when you where at the Gaia Seminary, having participated in act of harassment and sexual abuse.
- It’s all a lie; the media have nothing else to do. It is easy to attack the image of a priest. But, at this moment the defamers are being sued.
in Semanário Privado, 1 July 2009 - Paper Editon Only
So what was it about Father Hubbard that you didn't like the look of ?
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I'm not a Catholic - but my partner of 20 years is and I must agree with the above. A good friend of mine is a Vicar (C of E) and he is called upon quite a bit for pastoral care - but not at 3 in the morning. People tend to wait for a Godly hour before contacting him unless it is a matter of life and death.
N
well it was a matter of life and death so you have confirmed that in these circumstances it would be normal to call a priest
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well it was a matter of life and death so you have confirmed that in these circumstances it would be normal to call a priest
I suppose you could view it in that way, if you were so inclined. I would have thought though, as the child was just 'missing' one wouldn't be contemplating death. I'm not criticising what the McCanns did, just adding my limited experience into the mix.
N