UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Opposing Pat on November 13, 2013, 12:33:57 AM
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Former Scotland Yard Commander Roy Ramm supposed it was a carefully planned "kidnap" !
Former Scotland Yard Commander John O'Connor supposed Madeleine was abducted by a predatory paedophile !
Kidnap by definition requires a ransom request ! Why would ex-Commander Ramm claim Madeleine was "kidnapped" ?
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Former Scotland Yard Commander Roy Ramm supposed it was a carefully planned "kidnap" !
Former Scotland Yard Commander John O'Connor supposed Madeleine was abducted by a predatory paedophile !
Kidnap by definition requires a ransom request ! Why would ex-Commander Ramm claim Madeleine was "kidnapped" ?
I think you need to check your dictionary again
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Definition of the offence
1.9 Kidnapping is defined at common law as the taking or carrying away of one
person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or
carried away and without lawful excuse. It must involve an attack on or loss of
that person’s liberty.12
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As a side issue, was the word 'abduction' regularly used by people pre-McCann ?
I know the word is not recent, but feel many of us would use kidnapped or taken, rather than abducted, which sounds more a legal term than normal usage in speech.
Not trying to make any particular point, just curious.
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I dont thnk there is too much difference..people use the terms interchangeably......but kidnapped tends to refer to people taken for a reason connected to the family/organisation for a ransom, and or a grudge, revenge, parental/familial dispute, politics....abducted is a more general word for stealing/taking for any number of reasons
Thats how I understand it anyway
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That's how I understand it as well.
I merely wondered if the word was in general everyday usage by laypersons or whether people would have been more likely to say 'taken', as indeed Kate did on at least one occasion.
Now, of course, everyone uses the word.
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That's how I understand it as well.
I merely wondered if the word was in general everyday usage by laypersons or whether people would have been more likely to say 'taken', as indeed Kate did on at least one occasion.
Now, of course, everyone uses the word.
I dont think abducted is a lay term...more police/legal/media
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Former Scotland Yard Commander Roy Ramm supposed it was a carefully planned "kidnap" !
Former Scotland Yard Commander John O'Connor supposed Madeleine was abducted by a predatory paedophile !
Kidnap by definition requires a ransom request ! Why would ex-Commander Ramm claim Madeleine was "kidnapped" ?
Personally I think they mean the same.
Abduction or kidnapping by strangers (from outside the family, natural or legal guardians) who steal a child for criminal purposes which may include:
- extortion, to elicit a ransom from the guardians for the child's return
illegal adoption, a stranger steals a child with the intent to rear the child as their own or to sell to a prospective adoptive parent
human trafficking, a stranger steals a child with the intent to exploit the child themselves or by trade in a list of possible abuses including slavery, forced labor, sexual abuse, or even illegal organ trading
murder
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You may be right colombosstogey, I may have been reading too much into what was said by ex-Commander Ramm.
Do you think she was abducted/kidnapped?
I put a scenario on the open door thread.
I think she could have been but several things dont make sense to me i wish they did.
Either way she is missing poor lamb.x 8(8-))
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Definition of the offence
1.9 Kidnapping is defined at common law as the taking or carrying away of one
person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or
carried away and without lawful excuse. It must involve an attack on or loss of
that person’s liberty.12
I will check later..it is a govt legal site
The legal defn of kidnapping does not necessarily include a ransom
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I can assure you pat you are 100% wrong to assume that the legal defn of kidnapping does NOT assume a ransom being asked for
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You don't need a ransom for kidnapping. As an example your neighbour could call round to borrow a cup of sugar, if you refuse to let let them leave your property then that can be defined (legally) as kidnap.
For abduction I think you would need to go to your neighbours and physically move them to another area. If you kept them in that area then you would be guilty of both abduction and kidnap.
N
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You don't need a ransom for kidnapping. As an example your neighbour could call round to borrow a cup of sugar, if you refuse to let let them leave your property then that can be defined (legally) as kidnap.
For abduction I think you would need to go to your neighbours and physically move them to another area. If you kept them in that area then you would be guilty of both abduction and kidnap.
N
isn't that classed as imprisonment ... >@@(*&)
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hmm, yes imprisonment does fit that description better.
In fact, kidnapping was being looked at in 2011 as the definition was unclear:
Professor David Ormerod, the Law Commissioner leading on the project, says:
“The definition of kidnapping is both vague and arbitrary but the penalties can be high. Reform is needed to clarify the nature of kidnapping for the courts and allow practitioners to deal effectively and proportionately with the range of criminality. Our aim is to clarify the definition and boundaries of kidnapping and to ensure that these forms of wrongdoing can be prosecuted with confidence.”
http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/news/1686.htm
So, it looks like a hard distinction to make between abduction and kidnap really
N
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hmm, yes imprisonment does fit that description better.
In fact, kidnapping was being looked at in 2011 as the definition was unclear:
Professor David Ormerod, the Law Commissioner leading on the project, says:
“The definition of kidnapping is both vague and arbitrary but the penalties can be high. Reform is needed to clarify the nature of kidnapping for the courts and allow practitioners to deal effectively and proportionately with the range of criminality. Our aim is to clarify the definition and boundaries of kidnapping and to ensure that these forms of wrongdoing can be prosecuted with confidence.”
http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/news/1686.htm
So, it looks like a hard distinction to make between abduction and kidnap really
N
So basically ....pats wrong
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Former Scotland Yard Commander Roy Ramm supposed it was a carefully planned "kidnap" !
Former Scotland Yard Commander John O'Connor supposed Madeleine was abducted by a predatory paedophile !
Kidnap by definition requires a ransom request ! Why would ex-Commander Ramm claim Madeleine was "kidnapped" ?
No it doesnt
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Kidnap versus Abduction.
Key Difference: Abduction is when someone uses deceit or force in order to take a person or a child away from their home or relatives. Kidnapping is taking away or forcefully transporting a person against their will and holding them in false imprisonment, a confinement without legal authority. The kidnapping is usually done for a motive or for ransom.
There are various different words in the English language that can be interchanged and seem very similar. Abduction and kidnapping are two of these words that seem similar in nature, however have distinct differences. These terms are used interchangeably these days, but they differ in terms of laws.
Abduction is when someone uses deceit or force in order to take a person or a child away from their home or relatives. The abductors do not reveal their motive for taking away the person or the child. Merriam Webster defines ‘abduction’ as, “to seize and take away (as a person) by force.” In legal definition, the victim knows or has some sort of relation with the abductor. The victim can be a minor or an adult.
The most common cases of abduction are seen in divorce cases, where one parent is given the sole custody of a child. The person who abducts is not holding the person for profit or any monetary gain from the victim. The laws for abduction crimes vary from state to state and country to country, depending on the severity of the crime.
Kidnapping is taking away or forcefully transporting a person against their will and holding them in false imprisonment, a confinement without legal authority. The kidnapping is usually done for a motive or for ransom. ‘Kidnapping’ is defined as, “to seize and detain or carry away by unlawful force or fraud and often with a demand for ransom.”
Kidnapping involves taking a person from their family forcefully without their consent with the motive of holding the person as a hostage and earning a profit from their family. The kidnapping could be for a number of reasons such as getting monetary reward, or getting some sort of benefit from the person. In the United States, if a person that is kidnapped is taking across state lines, it is considered as a federal law. In order states, the charges range from paying a fine to confinement, depending on the severity of the crime.
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Still no source for the original quote you posted davel !
Did you quote it out of context perchance ?
http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/docs/cp200_kidnapping_consultation.pdf
its near the start of this document
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I thought "new threads" had to be approved by Admin/Mods ?
I really can't see a point to this thread.
Madeleine is gone -Stolen, Abducted, Kidnapped, Nicked it doesn't matter which term you use.
What matters is Madeleine being found and the people responsible caught and punished.
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And you have proof of this ! Where exactly ?
Weren't we discussing the Thread Title....at least I was. Maybe you need to re read your OP.
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I thought "new threads" had to be approved by Admin/Mods ?
I really can't see a point to this thread.
Madeleine is gone -Stolen, Abducted, Kidnapped, Nicked it doesn't matter which term you use.
What matters is Madeleine being found and the people responsible caught and punished.
8((()*/
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That's a CONSULTATION paper, read point 1.6 !
and it gives the current legal definition of kidnap..raed 1.7
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We were and then you introduced the somewhat incendiary quote - "Madeleine is gone -Stolen, Abducted, Kidnapped, Nicked it doesn't matter which term you use."
For which I asked for your proof !
Madeleine is gone- Stolen,Abducted,Kidnapped, Nicked. it doesn't matter which term you use.
Pat could you tell me which part of that ^^^^^^ is incendiary?
in•cen•di•ar•y (ɪnˈsɛn diˌɛr i)
adj., n., pl. -ar•ies. adj.
1. used or adapted for setting property on fire: incendiary bombs.
2. of or pertaining to the criminal setting on fire of property.
3. tending to arouse strife, sedition, etc.; inflammatory: incendiary speeches.
n.
4. a person who deliberately sets fire to property.
5. a device containing napalm, thermite, or the like, that burns with an intense heat.
6. a person who stirs up strife
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If my memory serves me right, in Portugal, abduction and kidnap appear in the same article of the law - sequestro e rapto - the differentiation is made by the results and/or the means used to make it happen.
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Your inability to understand the written word speaks volumes !
Now, once again, where is the proof of your assertions ?
he doesnt have have any proof or evidence, just the assertion......which was nothing to do with trying to differentiate between what abducted and kidnapped meant which was the topic of the post......
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Your inability to understand the written word speaks volumes !
Now, once again, where is the proof of your assertions ?
No, you just haven't replied as to which part of " Madeleine is gone- Stolen, Abducted, Kidnapped, Nicked. it doesn't matter which term you use." you consider incendiary.
My "assertions" tally with her parents, Andy Redwood of the Metropolitan Police, and the new team Investigating and Abduction from Oporto.