Was Madeleine either abducted or kidnapped ?

[Opposing Pat]

Former Scotland Yard Commander Roy Ramm supposed it was a carefully planned "kidnap" !

Former Scotland Yard Commander John O'Connor supposed Madeleine was abducted by a predatory paedophile !

Kidnap by definition requires a ransom request ! Why would ex-Commander Ramm claim Madeleine was "kidnapped" ?

[Mr Gray]

Former Scotland Yard Commander Roy Ramm supposed it was a carefully planned "kidnap" !

Former Scotland Yard Commander John O'Connor supposed Madeleine was abducted by a predatory paedophile !

Kidnap by definition requires a ransom request ! Why would ex-Commander Ramm claim Madeleine was "kidnapped" ?

 I think you need to check your dictionary again

[Mr Gray]

Definition of the offence
1.9 Kidnapping is defined at common law as the taking or carrying away of one
person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or
carried away and without lawful excuse. It must involve an attack on or loss of
that person’s liberty.12

[jassi]

As a side issue, was the word 'abduction' regularly used by people  pre-McCann ?

I know the word is not recent, but feel many of  us would use kidnapped or taken, rather than abducted, which sounds more a legal term than normal usage in speech.

Not trying to make any particular point, just curious.

[Redblossom]

I dont thnk there is too much difference..people use the terms interchangeably......but kidnapped tends to refer to people taken for a reason connected to the family/organisation for a ransom, and or a grudge, revenge, parental/familial dispute, politics....abducted is a more general word for stealing/taking for any number of reasons

Thats how I understand it anyway

[jassi]

That's how I understand it as well.
I merely wondered if the word was in general everyday usage by laypersons or whether people would have been more likely to say 'taken', as indeed Kate did on at least one occasion.

Now, of course, everyone uses the word.

[Redblossom]

That's how I understand it as well.
I merely wondered if the word was in general everyday usage by laypersons or whether people would have been more likely to say 'taken', as indeed Kate did on at least one occasion.

Now, of course, everyone uses the word.

I dont think abducted is a lay term...more police/legal/media

[colombosstogey]

Former Scotland Yard Commander Roy Ramm supposed it was a carefully planned "kidnap" !

Former Scotland Yard Commander John O'Connor supposed Madeleine was abducted by a predatory paedophile !

Kidnap by definition requires a ransom request ! Why would ex-Commander Ramm claim Madeleine was "kidnapped" ?

Personally I think they mean the same.

Abduction or kidnapping by strangers (from outside the family, natural or legal guardians) who steal a child for criminal purposes which may include:

• extortion, to elicit a ransom from the guardians for the child's return
  illegal adoption, a stranger steals a child with the intent to rear the child as their own or to sell to a prospective adoptive parent
  human trafficking, a stranger steals a child with the intent to exploit the child themselves or by trade in a list of possible abuses including slavery, forced labor, sexual abuse, or even illegal organ trading
  murder

[colombosstogey]

You may be right colombosstogey, I may have been reading too much into what was said by ex-Commander Ramm.

Do you think she was abducted/kidnapped?

I put a scenario on the open door thread.

I think she could have been but several things dont make sense to me i wish they did.

Either way she is missing poor lamb.x

[Mr Gray]

Definition of the offence
1.9 Kidnapping is defined at common law as the taking or carrying away of one
person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or
carried away and without lawful excuse. It must involve an attack on or loss of
that person’s liberty.12

I will check later..it is a govt legal site

 The legal defn of kidnapping does not necessarily include a ransom

[Mr Gray]

I can assure you pat you are 100% wrong to assume that the legal defn of kidnapping does NOT assume a ransom being asked for

[BigFatBlonde]

You don't need a ransom for kidnapping. As an example your neighbour could call round to borrow a cup of sugar, if you refuse to let let them leave your property then that can be defined (legally) as kidnap.

For abduction I think you would need to go to your neighbours and physically move them to another area. If you kept them in that area then you would be guilty of both abduction and kidnap.

N

[Benita]

You don't need a ransom for kidnapping. As an example your neighbour could call round to borrow a cup of sugar, if you refuse to let let them leave your property then that can be defined (legally) as kidnap.

For abduction I think you would need to go to your neighbours and physically move them to another area. If you kept them in that area then you would be guilty of both abduction and kidnap.

N

isn't that classed as imprisonment  ... >@@(*&)

[BigFatBlonde]

hmm, yes imprisonment does fit that description better.

In fact, kidnapping was being looked at in 2011 as the definition was unclear:

Professor David Ormerod, the Law Commissioner leading on the project, says:

“The definition of kidnapping is both vague and arbitrary but the penalties can be high. Reform is needed to clarify the nature of kidnapping for the courts and allow practitioners to deal effectively and proportionately with the range of criminality. Our aim is to clarify the definition and boundaries of kidnapping and to ensure that these forms of wrongdoing can be prosecuted with confidence.”

http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/news/1686.htm

So, it looks like a hard distinction to make between abduction and kidnap really

N

[Mr Gray]

hmm, yes imprisonment does fit that description better.

In fact, kidnapping was being looked at in 2011 as the definition was unclear:

Professor David Ormerod, the Law Commissioner leading on the project, says:

“The definition of kidnapping is both vague and arbitrary but the penalties can be high. Reform is needed to clarify the nature of kidnapping for the courts and allow practitioners to deal effectively and proportionately with the range of criminality. Our aim is to clarify the definition and boundaries of kidnapping and to ensure that these forms of wrongdoing can be prosecuted with confidence.”

http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/news/1686.htm

So, it looks like a hard distinction to make between abduction and kidnap really

N

So basically ....pats wrong