UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on March 26, 2014, 11:19:32 PM
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It has been reported in the MSM that five owners of apartments at the Ocean Club Resort in Praia da Luz have failed to come forward and cooperate with police.
The question is now being asked as to why would these people not want to assist in a missing child enquiry.
One has always to remember that there were Brits out there with much to hide for reasons other than are connected with Madeleine McCann. Undeclared income from rentals being one of them 8(0(*
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It has been reported in the MSM that five owners of apartments at the Ocean Club Resort in Praia da Luz have failed to come forward and cooperate with police.
The question is now being asked as to why would these people not want to assist in a missing child enquiry.
One has always to remember that there were Brits out there with much to hide for reasons other than are connected with Madeleine McCann. Undeclared income from rentals being one of them 8(0(*
There are many reasons that people may be afraid to come forward now, John's example being one of them. Extramarital affairs, people afraid because they know they should've come forward earlier etc. To be honest every new sighting or piece of info is rubbished automatically with the witness often being called a fantasist /liar etc. I personally would come forward but I would imagine there are people who are reluctant. If I did come forward I wouldn't fancy any armchair detectives googling my name/address, stalking my home etc. and my life dissected on forums.
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There are many reasons that people may be afraid to come forward now, John's example being one of them. Extramarital affairs, people afraid because they know they should've come forward earlier etc. To be honest every new sighting or piece of info is rubbished automatically with the witness often being called a fantasist /liar etc. I personally would come forward but I would imagine there are people who are reluctant. If I did come forward I wouldn't fancy any armchair detectives googling my name/address, stalking my home etc. and my life dissected on forums.
Such reluctance is understandable when consideration is given to past events and makes the release of the highly confidential information contained in the PJ files into the public domain all the more bizarre and reprehensible.
The un-redacted files initially contained names and addresses, photographs of witnesses and witness statements made in confidence to the police.
Just another ‘unique’ in the Madeleine McCann case and another paradox in the ‘secrecy’ laws of Portugal.
Such a breach, would justifiably lead a potential witness to be very reluctant to come forward in the knowledge that his/her confidentiality might be compromised, and this is a situation which should never have been allowed to happen.
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There are many reasons that people may be afraid to come forward now, John's example being one of them. Extramarital affairs, people afraid because they know they should've come forward earlier etc. To be honest every new sighting or piece of info is rubbished automatically with the witness often being called a fantasist /liar etc. I personally would come forward but I would imagine there are people who are reluctant. If I did come forward I wouldn't fancy any armchair detectives googling my name/address, stalking my home etc. and my life dissected on forums.
8@??)(
Also the fear of the PJ would not help.
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8@??)(
Also the fear of the PJ would not help.
They could always turn themselves into Mrs Murat. 8(0(*
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There are many reasons that people may be afraid to come forward now, John's example being one of them. Extramarital affairs, people afraid because they know they should've come forward earlier etc. To be honest every new sighting or piece of info is rubbished automatically with the witness often being called a fantasist /liar etc. I personally would come forward but I would imagine there are people who are reluctant. If I did come forward I wouldn't fancy any armchair detectives googling my name/address, stalking my home etc. and my life dissected on forums.
That's because all of the sightings, with one exception, have been a load of complete horse shit.
Unless of course you believe it is likely that Maddie has been doing a world tour since 2007.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/my-names-maddie-they-took-me-from-my-holiday-mccanns-fury-over-the-sightings-and-cctv-footage-police-kept-secret-6909318.html
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That's because all of the sightings, with one exception, have been a load of complete horse shit.
Precisely.
SY are clutching at straws, so we can see a regular stream of nonsense coming from them.
Has it not occurred to other people these residents have already been investigated ?
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Precisely.
SY are clutching at straws, so we can see a regular stream of nonsense coming from them.
Has it not occurred to other people these residents have already been investigated ?
So their details will be in the files
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So their details will be in the files
That would seem logical as people in the apartments would have been interviewed at the time.
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That would seem logical as people in the apartments would have been interviewed at the time.
So why cant SY get their names from the files...because they are not there... they haven't been interviewed
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So why cant SY get their names from the files...because they are not there... they haven't been interviewed
Maybe their statements got lost, along with that note Kate left in reception.
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Maybe their statements got lost, along with that note Kate left in reception.
seems stephens got it wrong
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seems stephens got it wrong
Seems the Mirror is chatting shit again.
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Perhaps the information wouldn't be generally available if it were deemed at the time to be irrelevant
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So why cant SY get their names from the files...because they are not there... they haven't been interviewed
How would you know who they are davel ???
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Seems the Mirror is chatting shit again.
Par for the course with the UK press in this case.
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Backtracking slightly - have SY themselves said that they are interested in these owners, or is it media manipulation and hype?
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Backtracking slightly - have SY themselves said that they are interested in these owners, or is it media manipulation and hype?
No, it's a Mirror article from 'a source', So that'll be Clarence Mitchell then.
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No, it's a Mirror article from 'a source', So that'll be Clarence Mitchell then.
Ah the 'pink' one.
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No, it's a Mirror article from 'a source', So that'll be Clarence Mitchell then.
Thank you -'nuff said, then
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It has been reported in the MSM that five owners of apartments at the Ocean Club Resort in Praia da Luz have failed to come forward and cooperate with police.
The question is now being asked as to why would these people not want to assist in a missing child enquiry.
One has always to remember that there were Brits out there with much to hide for reasons other than are connected with Madeleine McCann. Undeclared income from rentals being one of them 8(0(*
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/taxman-targets-illegal-rentals/31253
Taxman targets illegal rentals
Estimates point to around 300 million euros being diverted away from the state’s depleted coffers in unpaid taxes.
It is believed that tax inspectors will be hitting the streets this summer of popular coastline resorts with a view to establishing whether holiday homes are duly licensed and registered with tax offices. Similarly, apartments let to students in university cities will also be targeted by inspectors. This is anticipated to take place before the summer break as authorities bid to catch perpetrators in the act of withholding taxes.
According to an official report issued by the Finance Ministry through its Fraud and Special Actions Squad, this renewed effort comes after “numerous situations concerning the omission of facts or undeclared values were detected” in random checks on apartments commonly thought to be second homes or investment properties.
The squad has this week also received instructions and specific targets which inspectors have been requested to visit in the coming months.
The Finance Ministry further revealed that it has already “verified the existence of several fiscal irregularities which immediately resulted in the correction of unpaid taxes and the opening of a case file and the lodging of charges against offenders.”
Home owners found guilty of evading taxes payable on rental income could face hefty fines in addition to coughing up for outstanding amounts. Depending on the nature of the tax evasion, non-compliant landlords could also be asked to answer criminal charges in court.
It is believed authorities will particularly frown on owners of properties used for holiday lets but who have benefited from tax breaks due to the use for which the property has been registered at Finanças tax offices.
While not disclosing the manner in which the taxman intends executing this operation, the office of Finance Minister Maria Luís Albuquerque did say that “inspections by tax authorities will be intensified through the reinforcement of human, operational, legal and technological resources.”
The objective will be then to “control, detect, correct and penalise infringements in this particular field.”
Reports this week indicated that up to 400,000 homes could currently be being used as rental properties without their owners paying the required taxes.
The Finance Ministry said the underlying principle behind this new onslaught on non-obliging taxpayers is the “foundation of this current Government’s fiscal policy which is intended to ensure social equity in times of austerity while also impeding situations of abuse and unfair competition.”
While it is thought that around 300 million euros is being lost in unpaid taxes each year, the amount exchanging hands between tenants and landlords of unregistered properties in Portugal is calculated to be around one billion euros per annum.
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Suppose there was a violent burglary in your street ... a serious crime
And suppose you were in bed, fast asleep at the time and saw and heard nothing
What would you do ?
Would go to the police station the next day to 'present' yourself, saying that although you heard and saw nothing, and that although you have absolutely nothing of value to tell the police, you thought they might want to know who you are ?
If people have not 'come forward' in this case, the most obvious explanation is that they have nothing of significance to say
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Suppose there was a violent burglary in your street ... a serious crime
And suppose you were in bed, fast asleep at the time and saw and heard nothing
What would you do ?
Would go to the police station the next day to 'present' yourself, saying that although you heard and saw nothing, and that although you have absolutely nothing of value to tell the police, you thought they might want to know who you are ?
If people have not 'come forward' in this case, the most obvious explanation is that they have nothing of significance to say
Using the example you quote, icabod, I would be astounded if the police didn't doorstep me in the process of investigating a violent crime.
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Using the example you quote, icabod, I would be astounded if the police didn't doorstep me in the process of investigating a violent crime.
And what if they didn't 'doorstep' you ... would you contact the police to tell them you had nothing to tell them ?
The point I am making is that it is silly to presume that anyone who was in PDL that week, and has not 'presented' themselves to the police, must have some kind of 'dark motive' for doing so
Lets assume, for instance, that you or I were in PDL that week on a family holiday
Lets assume that we did not recall ever even having seen the McCann family
Lets assume that we spent our time with our kids doing the kind of things most young families do on a beach holiday abroad ... paddling in the sea ... collecting shells on the beach ... building sandcastles ... playing beach cricket/tennis with plastic bats ... you know the kind of thing
Lets assume we spent all our time with our families and never did 'adult pass-times' like tennis lessons or sailing, and lets assume we had our evening meals in our apartments with our kids and then stayed there after they'd gone to bed
It's fair to say that in those circumstances you or I would probably never have crossed paths with the McCann family, who were having an entirely different kind of holiday
Now lets assume you and I returned home with our families, never having crossed paths with the McCanns
We'd have nothing of significance or value to tell the police would we ? ... there would be no purpose to us contacting them, would there ?
I believe those people who have not 'come forward' are likely to have the same reasoning ... they simply don't have anything of significance to say
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And what if they didn't 'doorstep' you ... would you contact the police to tell them you had nothing to tell them ?
The point I am making is that it is silly to presume that anyone who was in PDL that week, and has not 'presented' themselves to the police, must have some kind of 'dark motive' for doing so
Lets assume, for instance, that you or I were in PDL that week on a family holiday
Lets assume that we did not recall ever even having seen the McCann family
Lets assume that we spent our time with our kids doing the kind of things most young families do on a beach holiday abroad ... paddling in the sea ... collecting shells on the beach ... building sandcastles ... playing beach cricket/tennis with plastic bats ... you know the kind of thing
Lets assume we spent all our time with our families and never did 'adult pass-times' like tennis lessons or sailing, and lets assume we had our evening meals in our apartments with our kids and then stayed there after they'd gone to bed
It's fair to say that in those circumstances you or I would probably never have crossed paths with the McCann family, who were having an entirely different kind of holiday
Now lets assume you and I returned home with our families, never having crossed paths with the McCanns
We'd have nothing of significance or value to tell the police would we ? ... there would be no purpose to us contacting them, would there ?
I believe those people who have not 'come forward' are likely to have the same reasoning ... they simply don't have anything of significance to say
there was an interesting case in the UK about 10 years ago invoving a murder of a young women. The police had no leadsapart from dna from the scene. They decided to ask every male in a certain area...about 20,000 men, to voluntarily take a dna test......this resulted in the perpetrator being caught when he tried to avoid giving a sample when almost everyone else did
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And what if they didn't 'doorstep' you ... would you contact the police to tell them you had nothing to tell them ?
The point I am making is that it is silly to presume that anyone who was in PDL that week, and has not 'presented' themselves to the police, must have some kind of 'dark motive' for doing so
Lets assume, for instance, that you or I were in PDL that week on a family holiday
Lets assume that we did not recall ever even having seen the McCann family
Lets assume that we spent our time with our kids doing the kind of things most young families do on a beach holiday abroad ... paddling in the sea ... collecting shells on the beach ... building sandcastles ... playing beach cricket/tennis with plastic bats ... you know the kind of thing
Lets assume we spent all our time with our families and never did 'adult pass-times' like tennis lessons or sailing, and lets assume we had our evening meals in our apartments with our kids and then stayed there after they'd gone to bed
It's fair to say that in those circumstances you or I would probably never have crossed paths with the McCann family, who were having an entirely different kind of holiday
Now lets assume you and I returned home with our families, never having crossed paths with the McCanns
We'd have nothing of significance or value to tell the police would we ? ... there would be no purpose to us contacting them, would there ?
I believe those people who have not 'come forward' are likely to have the same reasoning ... they simply don't have anything of significance to say
Lets not assume anything.
Too many people make assumptions regarding this case and you are continuing in that vein.
The fact is that the Police, be that the PJ or SY know more about this case than you or I.
When a person comes forward even if they do not believe that they have anything valuable to tell the police, or indeed anything at all of any significance to offer, the police can ask questions which prompt memories that the person did not know were connected to the events.
You seem to forget that the police when asking for information, stress that they want to talk to all potential witnesses to a crime/event even those who do not believe that they saw anything relevant. Do you really assume they do that simply to waste time?
Everyone who was in PDL that week saw hundreds of people and even if they did not see the McCanns they may well have seen the people (or even BE the people) that the Police are trying to eliminate from their inquiries.
Your assumptions are the perfect example of how not to conduct an inquiry. Thankfully the detectives of SY and the PJ are not as amateurish in their outlook as you clearly are.
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Lets not assume anything.
Too many people make assumptions regarding this case and you are continuing in that vein.
The fact is that the Police, be that the PJ or SY know more about this case than you or I.
When a person comes forward even if they do not believe that they have anything valuable to tell the police, or indeed anything at all of any significance to offer, the police can ask questions which prompt memories that the person did not know were connected to the events.
You seem to forget that the police when asking for information, stress that they want to talk to all potential witnesses to a crime/event even those who do not believe that they saw anything relevant. Do you really assume they do that simply to waste time?
Everyone who was in PDL that week saw hundreds of people and even if they did not see the McCanns they may well have seen the people (or even BE the people) that the Police are trying to eliminate from their inquiries.
Your assumptions are the perfect example of how not to conduct an inquiry. Thankfully the detectives of SY and the PJ are not as amateurish in their outlook as you clearly are.
I didn't realise that you were a detective, Gilet. I'm an amateur like icabod and probably 99% of the people on here.
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Lets not assume anything.
Too many people make assumptions regarding this case and you are continuing in that vein.
The fact is that the Police, be that the PJ or SY know more about this case than you or I.
When a person comes forward even if they do not believe that they have anything valuable to tell the police, or indeed anything at all of any significance to offer, the police can ask questions which prompt memories that the person did not know were connected to the events.
You seem to forget that the police when asking for information, stress that they want to talk to all potential witnesses to a crime/event even those who do not believe that they saw anything relevant. Do you really assume they do that simply to waste time?
Everyone who was in PDL that week saw hundreds of people and even if they did not see the McCanns they may well have seen the people (or even BE the people) that the Police are trying to eliminate from their inquiries.
Your assumptions are the perfect example of how not to conduct an inquiry. Thankfully the detectives of SY and the PJ are not as amateurish in their outlook as you clearly are.
I believe NSY are in the process of weeding out what is of relevance and what is not.
I find nothing extraordinary in them wanting information on everyone who was in occupation in block five and elsewhere at the relevant time.
In fact I find it extraordinary that the PJ doesn't appear to have done this as a matter of course.
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And what if they didn't 'doorstep' you ... would you contact the police to tell them you had nothing to tell them ?
The point I am making is that it is silly to presume that anyone who was in PDL that week, and has not 'presented' themselves to the police, must have some kind of 'dark motive' for doing so
Lets assume, for instance, that you or I were in PDL that week on a family holiday
Lets assume that we did not recall ever even having seen the McCann family
Lets assume that we spent our time with our kids doing the kind of things most young families do on a beach holiday abroad ... paddling in the sea ... collecting shells on the beach ... building sandcastles ... playing beach cricket/tennis with plastic bats ... you know the kind of thing
Lets assume we spent all our time with our families and never did 'adult pass-times' like tennis lessons or sailing, and lets assume we had our evening meals in our apartments with our kids and then stayed there after they'd gone to bed
It's fair to say that in those circumstances you or I would probably never have crossed paths with the McCann family, who were having an entirely different kind of holiday
Now lets assume you and I returned home with our families, never having crossed paths with the McCanns
We'd have nothing of significance or value to tell the police would we ? ... there would be no purpose to us contacting them, would there ?
I believe those people who have not 'come forward' are likely to have the same reasoning ... they simply don't have anything of significance to say
Why do you assume that the person in PdL who may have vital information that unlocks this case would have had to have crossed paths with the McCanns specifically?
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I didn't realise that you were a detective, Gilet. I'm an amateur like icabod and probably 99% of the people on here.
What a truly pathetic response! I never claimed to be a detective. I compared Icabodcrane's amateur suppositions to the real work of real detectives.
I guess everyone here is an amateur but those who are seeking truth don't waste time inventing suppositions which bear no resemblance to the way real police work.
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I believe NSY are in the process of weeding out what is of relevance and what is not.
I find nothing extraordinary in them wanting information on everyone who was in occupation in block five and elsewhere at the relevant time.
In fact I find it extraordinary that the PJ doesn't appear to have done this as a matter of course.
It is one of many, many aberrations in the work of the PJ.
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It is one of many, many aberrations in the work of the PJ.
That is your opinion, no more, no less.
............and as your compatriot davel is fond of saying, of no value whatsoever.
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What a truly pathetic response! I never claimed to be a detective. I compared Icabodcrane's amateur suppositions to the real work of real detectives.
I guess everyone here is an amateur but those who are seeking truth don't waste time inventing suppositions which bear no resemblance to the way real police work.
Why don't you see if you can manage a post without being, rude, patronising, condescending or insulting. Go on, it can be your own version of Just a Minute.
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That is your opinion, no more, no less.
............and as your compatriot davel is fond of saying, of no value whatsoever.
It is an opinion based on the fact that the PJ clearly did a lousy job and I can offer the evidence for that statement.
Part of the evidence being that they failed to interview everyone who was present in that block that week (or even, possibly, find out who they were).
Till you can explain that clear aberration then people will obviously wonder why you obviously support such bad policing.
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Why don't you see if you can manage a post without being, rude, patronising, condescending or insulting. Go on, it can be your own version of Just a Minute.
The post of yours to which I responded was clearly intended to be rude, condescending and insulting. I simply responded in kind.
Now why, instead of commenting on the very valid points I made to Icabodcrane, did you pretend in your post that I had claimed to be a detective? Were you just lying or had you not understood the post I made. or perhaps not even bothered to read it?
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That's because all of the sightings, with one exception, have been a load of complete horse shit.
Unless of course you believe it is likely that Maddie has been doing a world tour since 2007.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/my-names-maddie-they-took-me-from-my-holiday-mccanns-fury-over-the-sightings-and-cctv-footage-police-kept-secret-6909318.html
Your opinion only. What proof do you have to say that?
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In the publication "SOL" on 15/09/2007 ( http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html ) is an example from the mouth of a local resident of exactly why some some innocent people were reticent to get involved by talking to PJ:
"We didn't want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with ..."
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Maybe these people who don't want to cooperate are the guilty ones???
I think I read somewhere recently that in a case in France a whole town is considered suspect..
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Maybe these people who don't want to cooperate are the guilty ones???
I think I read somewhere recently that in a case in France a whole town is considered suspect..
If this is what you're thinking of, it wasn't a whole town, but all the males associated with a school who were invited to provide a DNA swab.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/french-school-rape-dna-testing?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
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In the publication "SOL" on 15/09/2007 ( http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html ) is an example from the mouth of a local resident of exactly why some some innocent people were reticent to get involved by talking to PJ:
"We didn't want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with ..."
That report in a Portuguese paper, not an English one, is a very sad reflection on Portugal in my opinion.
It shows that a main focus for locals was not on the child or what happened to her but on the local economy and what effect the disappearance had had on that.
And there are already people who fear the long-term consequences of the case, which the village will suffer: “With time, the English will stop coming here”, Jorge Silva, a cook, foresees, and he explains: “We’ll be remembered for a bad thing”.
It shows too, a very worrying relationship between the PJ and the local population. Talking to the police is clearly not seen as the right thing to do.
“We didn’t want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with Luis, Robert Murat’s friend. After the police talked to him, he never got himself another pool to clean”, Silvia remembers.
But worst of all, in my view, it highights an odd confusion among the locals about the situation. This is the feeling as expressed in the article:
“We have a bigger fear of people. We had never heard anything about missing children around here. After this case, we started to be afraid”, Celia Rodrigues says, while she irons at the local laundry shop. “My son, who is 11, is still frightened when a stranger looks at him”, she adds. And even at school, Silvia Silva continues, “if someone stops and looks into the playground area… It’s complicated! We suspect everything and everyone”.
But even with such fear present there does not seem in the article to be any belief in the possibility of catching an offender, of solving the case, of trusting the PJ to do the job they were supposed to be doing back in 2007. And we can hardly be surprised looking back as the locals possibly knew from bitter experience what kind of job the PJ were doing. Now we know that they failed even to interview those living closest to the site of the disappearance we can fully understand the reluctance locals had to trust the PJ.
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That report in a Portuguese paper, not an English one, is a very sad reflection on Portugal in my opinion.
It shows that a main focus for locals was not on the child or what happened to her but on the local economy and what effect the disappearance had had on that.
It shows too, a very worrying relationship between the PJ and the local population. Talking to the police is clearly not seen as the right thing to do.
But worst of all, in my view, it highights an odd confusion among the locals about the situation. This is the feeling as expressed in the article:
But even with such fear present there does not seem in the article to be any belief in the possibility of catching an offender, of solving the case, of trusting the PJ to do the job they were supposed to be doing back in 2007. And we can hardly be surprised looking back as the locals possibly knew from bitter experience what kind of job the PJ were doing. Now we know that they failed even to interview those living closest to the site of the disappearance we can fully understand the reluctance locals had to trust the PJ.
To get back on topic.
There are perfectly good reasons why people may not have come forward in those quotes above.
The very actions of the PJ. Their known and observed incompetence in the case. Their inability to understand evidence and the tendency they had to make rash and incorrect conclusions about the evidence are all good reasons why people might not wish to present themselves to the PJ.
Perhaps people actually expected the police to have approached them? After all, when a child goes missing you would think that the police would interview those living within a hundred yards or so of the site of the disappearance. Not in this case, though. Such failings do not inspire confidence in a police force do they?
Other reasons why people might not come forward may well relate to the hounding which convicted law-breakers such as Bennett orchestrate whereby anyone who in any way is connected to the case is hounded and in their terms "investigated" or "researched". These so-called investigations by the incompetent buffoons who could not even manage to work out what kind of case Bennett was being tried for last year, may well be the very reason that people won't come forward because online abuse and threats are very likely for anyone connected to the case. Anyone with a family would have to weigh up whether to put them through the kind of online attacks that these people dish out or stay quiet.
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To try to get things back on topic "Why do some people fail to come forward to help?, here is fuller text of a specific example I posted of why some some innocent people were reluctant to get involved by talking to police:
Source: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html , scroll down to Sol 15/09/2007 (the second article of that date, by M. Mateus)
Silvia lives at the apartment block 'Pedras Brancas', which was inspected by the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions.
"On Saturday, around half past midnight, two inspectors from the Judiciaria asked to enter my home. My daughter was four months old back then. They looked at her often, they walked around the bathroom, the kitchen, they even peeked into the laundry basket", she recalls. The reports follow one another on the same subject, because on that night the PJ visited other homes, leaving the inhabitants restless and disturbed. "We didn't want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with Luis, Robert Murat's friend. After the police talked to him, he never got himself another pool to clean", Silvia remembers.
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To try to get things back on topic "Why do some people fail to come forward to help?, here is fuller text of a specific example I posted of why some some innocent people were reluctant to get involved by talking to police:
Source: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html , scroll down to Sol 15/09/2007
Silvia lives at the apartment block 'Pedras Brancas', which was inspected by the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions.
"On Saturday, around half past midnight, two inspectors from the Judiciaria asked to enter my home. My daughter was four months old back then. They looked at her often, they walked around the bathroom, the kitchen, they even peeked into the laundry basket", she recalls. The reports follow one another on the same subject, because on that night the PJ visited other homes, leaving the inhabitants restless and disturbed. "We didn't want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with Luis, Robert Murat's friend. After the police talked to him, he never got himself another pool to clean", Silvia remembers.
There is a real sense of fear in that statement. What is it about contact with the PJ which causes that kind of fear I wonder?
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There is a real sense of fear in that statement. What is it about contact with the PJ which causes that kind of fear I wonder?
IMO the lady was not expressing any fear of the portuguese or british police, but expressing an understandable fear by some residents of being seen to be associated with the case by other residents, and she illustrates this with the example of the effect this had on the business of a totally innocent man.
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By the way, welcome Bruce.
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IMO the lady was not expressing any fear of the portuguese or british police, but expressing an understandable fear by some residents of being seen to be associated with the case by other residents, and she illustrates this with the example of the effect this had on the business of a totally innocent man.
Why should anyone be afraid of being seen talking to the PT police about a missing child?
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Why should anyone be afraid of being seen talking to the PT police about a missing child?
It is a sad fact that in small communities in Latin countries, someone seen chatting with the police is perceived to be an informer. The police are in many areas seen as being the agents of an oppressive government. In Spain for example the national force, the Guardia Civil, are still seen by many as Franco's thugs and are to be avoided at all costs. This does not usually apply to the town police who are viewed as their own.
In Portugal there are three levels of policing.
The PSP. Polícia de Segurança Pública - Public Security Police. Civilian police force who work in larger urban areas.
The GNR. Guarda Nacional Republicana - National Republican Guard. A Gendarmerie who mainly work in rural areas too small to warrant the PSP, and provide a national highway patrol and fiscal guard.
The PJ. Polícia Judiciária - Judicial Police. Overseen by the Public Ministry, they investigate criminal cases.
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There is a real sense of fear in that statement. What is it about contact with the PJ which causes that kind of fear I wonder?
The statement you are refering to does not relate to fear of contact with the police, but, rather, fear of being seen to have contact with the police ( which is quite a different thing )
The inference is that 'bad things' happen to those who assist the police in this case
And there's an element of truth in that, I think ... just look at the way certain witnesses are discredited ( or downright vilified ) on forums and social media for daring to 'cross' the McCanns in any way
The Gaspers ... Martin Grime ... Yvonne Martin ... Mrs Fenn ... Lee Rainbow ... Henri Exton ... ( these off the top of my head, but there are others, of course )
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The statement you are refering to does not relate to fear of contact with the police, but, rather, fear of being seen to have contact with the police ( which is quite a different thing )
The inference is that 'bad things' happen to those who assist the police in this case
And there's an element of truth in that, I think ... just look at the way certain witnesses are discredited ( or downright vilified ) on forums and social media for daring to 'cross' the McCanns in any way
The Gaspers ... Martin Grime ... Yvonne Martin ... Mrs Fenn ... Lee Rainbow ... Henri Exton ... ( these off the top of my head, but there are others, of course )
15/09/07 was just after the McCanns had returned to the UK and all missiles were firing from the PT tabloids. The files hadn't been released by then, so I'm not sure how a simple resident's worry about being seen talking to the police could be related to any of the people whose statements later appeared in the files disseminated throughout the Internet ether.
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15/09/07 was just after the McCanns had returned to the UK and all missiles were firing from the PT tabloids. The files hadn't been released by then, so I'm not sure how a simple resident's worry about being seen talking to the police could be related to any of the people whose statements later appeared in the files disseminated throughout the Internet ether.
You do not accept that witnesses who have presented evidence that raises questions regarding the McCanns have been treated with derision ?
... really ?
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That's because all of the sightings, with one exception, have been a load of complete horse shit.
Unless of course you believe it is likely that Maddie has been doing a world tour since 2007.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/my-names-maddie-they-took-me-from-my-holiday-mccanns-fury-over-the-sightings-and-cctv-footage-police-kept-secret-6909318.html
The thing is you see Wonderfulspam, if someone thinks they saw Madeleine, rather than just go home and not bother to report it, they find they have to report what they think they have seen as otherwise they cannot live with their conscience, wondering if what they saw was indeed Madeleine.
It may seem funny to you to say quote - Unless of course you believe it is likely that Maddie has been doing a world tour unquote, but the fact is, there are fantastic people who are keeping a look out and reporting if they think they have seen her. Good for them I say.
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The thing is you see Wonderfulspam, if someone thinks they saw Madeleine, rather than just go home and not bother to report it, they find they have to report what they think they have seen as otherwise they cannot live with their conscience, wondering if what they saw was indeed Madeleine.
It may seem funny to you to say quote - Unless of course you believe it is likely that Maddie has been doing a world tour unquote, but the fact is, there are fantastic people who are keeping a look out and reporting if they think they have seen her. Good for them I say.
Are you sure you don't mean ' fantasist people'?
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Are you sure you don't mean ' fantasist people'?
No I don't.
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Re "Liecester" IMO peeps should accept that occaisionaly peeps make speling mistakes.
If we pick on innocent spelling errors then the whole section of the forum about this case is null and void because it has a non-existent country in its title and we will have to write off over seventy-eight-thousand posts and start all over again.
Back on topic: For people in UK the best bet IMO for giving info to police is Crimestoppers because they guarantee complete anomnity https://crimestoppers-uk.org/give-information/the-crimestoppers-guarantee/
You will not be asked to reveal your name or any personal details.
Your call will not be recorded.
Crimestoppers have no caller line display, no 1471 facility and have never traced a call.
Online reports are given the same levels of anonymity as phone calls.
We create a report from the information you give us and our specially trained call agents will check that this report contains no information that might identify you, e.g. if the call is about your neighbour, we won't mention this.
Our call agents do not make a note of gender, accents, apparent age or ethnicity of any caller and cannot pass that detail to law enforcement. Even if you give personal details, those will not be passed on.
The only way anybody will know you rang Crimestoppers is if you tell somebody.
Crimestoppers' promise of anonymity has never been broken
But that gives no protection to Portuguese speakers in PDL.
Is there a similar, independent and guaranteed anonymous (portuguese language) phoneline for residents of PDL?
If not won't people worry about coming forward in case their their anomnity is not protected and even eventually their name may appear in released case files?
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Re "Liecester" IMO peeps should accept that occaisionaly peeps make speling mistakes.
If we pick on innocent spelling errors then the whole section of the forum about this case is null and void because it has a non-existent country in its title and we will have to write off over seventy-eight-thousand posts and start all over again.
Back on topic: For people in UK the best bet IMO for giving info to police is Crimestoppers because they guarantee complete anomnity https://crimestoppers-uk.org/give-information/the-crimestoppers-guarantee/
But that gives no protection to Portuguese speakers in PDL.
Is there a similar, independent and guaranteed anonymous (portuguese language) phoneline for residents of PDL?
If not won't people worry about coming forward in case their their anomnity is not protected and even eventually their name may appear in released case files?
I don't believe there is such a reputable organisation in Portugal. Perhaps Anne Guedes could confirm?
And I believe that if their information is used in a case in Portugal then at the conclusion or shelving of that case their details will become available to the press and via them the public.
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To answer the question posed in the thread title - I believe that even if locals had seen something they would not come forward for fear of being dragged in and accused of the crime.
The fact that Mrs Murat - (who lived there and so was well aware of that situation) set up a table for people who were too frightened to approach the PJ to leave information - is proof of that sad state of affairs IMO.
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To answer the question posed in the thread title - I believe that even if locals had seen something they would not come forward for fear of being dragged in and accused of the crime.
The fact that Mrs Murat - (who lived there and so was well aware of that situation) set up a table for people who were too frightened to approach the PJ to leave information - is proof of that sad state of affairs IMO.
I can empathise with that after seeing the wanton violence dished out by other Iberian cops.
(http://i.imgur.com/Pd3Ucrs.jpg?1)
Jenny Murat at her desk seeking help from locals too afraid to approach local police.
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To answer the question posed in the thread title - I believe that even if locals had seen something they would not come forward for fear of being dragged in and accused of the crime ...
If only the UK organisation Crimestoppers could set up a Portuguese language phoneline in PDL.
Run independently by Crimestooppers (with no involvement by SY or PJ or private investigators).
I'm impressed by their promise of complete anomnity and they seem to reliably adhere to it.
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I can empathise with that after seeing the wanton violence dished out by other Iberian cops...
IMO there is no indication of any violence being used by investigators (iberian or northern-european ) on witnesses in this case.
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IMO there is no indication of any violence being used by investigators (iberian or northern-european ) on witnesses in this case.
No physical torture that we know of, agreed.
But then Amaral, the head investigator / co-ordinator knew he was up on charges to do with torture. He had to tread carefully.
Also the eyes of the world were on this case.
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No physical torture that we know of, agreed.
But then Amaral, the head investigator / co-ordinator knew he was up on charges to do with torture. He had to tread carefully.
Also the eyes of the world were on this case.
I have looked through the case to seek any incident of physical violence by police against a witness in this case.
I found only one incident.
Omitting to politely offer a witness a cup of tea or coffee.
A form of torture so cruel that even the Spanish Inquisition could not bring themselves to inflict it.
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I have looked through the case to seek any incident of physical violence by police against a witness in this case.
I found only one incident.
Omitting to politely offer a witness a cup of tea or coffee.
A form of torture so cruel that even the Spanish Inquisition could not bring themselves to inflict it.
@)(++(*
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Sorry. Not one incident. Two incidents.
The second incident of violent torture by police against a witness in this case was actually inflicted in PDL on approx 9th May by a foreign (non-portuguese) police officer. I have seen a documentary about the Spanish Inquisition, seen the awful rack, and the chair, in use, but they pale into luxury compared with this technique: Slightly scaring a witness by making them think they will be driven to Spain
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I have looked through the case to seek any incident of physical violence by police against a witness in this case.
I found only one incident.
Omitting to politely offer a witness a cup of tea or coffee.
A form of torture so cruel that even the Spanish Inquisition could not bring themselves to inflict it.
With the 24/7 international media spotlights on them, they could hardly bash people around as they did in the Cipriano and other cases, could they?
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With the 24/7 international media spotlights on them, they could hardly bash people around as they did in the Cipriano and other cases, could they?
So the PJ can't be trusted because they torture people and the evidence that the PJ routinely torture people is the fact that they didn't in this case because too many people were watching.
8-)(--) 8-)(--)
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So the PJ can't be trusted because they torture people and the evidence that the PJ routinely torture people is the fact that they didn't in this case because too many people were watching.
8-)(--) 8-)(--)
I think they knew they would not get away with it...
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from The Portugal News 20 March 2014
“Looking into the activities of this particular individual was our primary line of investigation”, our police source said, adding: “It is all there in the police case files. You will see when it is made public.”
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3937.msg147890#msg147890
If I thought my confidentiality would be breached if I made a statement in a criminal investigation and every my every word dissected on the internet, I would be appalled.
But I would still consider it my civic duty to come forward with any information I had.
However if I thought I or my family might possibly be targeted by criminals as a result of such publicity I would be very reluctant to come forward and would think very carefully about doing so.
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The fact that long term resident expat Jenny Murat felt it necessary to set up a missing child desk so that anyone with information could pass it on confidentially says much.
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The fact that long term resident expat Jenny Murat felt it necessary to set up a missing child desk so that anyone with information could pass it on confidentially says much.
One doesn't know her motives, but it might partly have been that she thought an English-speaking person might have been more approachable for British tourists that a member of the Portuguese police - at least initially.
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One doesn't know her motives, but it might partly have been that she thought an English-speaking person might have been more approachable for British tourists that a member of the Portuguese police - at least initially.
Jenny did make it clear that many in the village were scared to approach the police and in any event didn't trust them.
As an aside, anyone know if Jenny's book which she was working on was ever published?