Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on November 09, 2014, 01:09:25 PM
Title: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 09, 2014, 01:09:25 PM
Why was NB not shot in bed? Why would JB not deal with his greatest obstacle in order of priority? Why would JB shoot/maim June a petite woman of perhaps a slightly anxious disposition before shooting/maiming NB a powerfully built man who was military trained? NB was shot well away from the bed while he was standing. JB was considered a marksman so he would have been more than capable of successful head shots. He could then have fired other random shots to make it appear amateurish/frenzied.
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Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on November 09, 2014, 02:35:46 PM
It's a small kitchen, Hols. Sat in his favourite chair next to the AGA facing the worktop, how could he miss anyone let alone Sheila loading a magazine and walking off with the Anschutz.
"Where are you off to, Sheila?" Oh, it's alright, dad... I'm just going upstairs to try out Jeremy's new rifle!"
Why was NB not shot in bed? Why would JB not deal with his greatest obstacle in order of priority? Why would JB shoot/maim June a petite woman of perhaps a slightly anxious disposition before shooting/maiming NB a powerfully built man who was military trained? NB was shot well away from the bed while he was standing. JB was considered a marksman so he would have been more than capable of successful head shots. He could then have fired other random shots to make it appear amateurish/frenzied.
You've asked that question umpteen times before! It was a fast moving situation as you said and JB wasn't bothered who the first victim was. That's why mother was shot first, because she was the nearest accesible person to the assailant entering the bedroom, possibly in semi-darkness and the reason why Nevill had the nous when he realised what was happening to quickly jump out of bed before the killer managed to get any shots at him.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 10, 2014, 08:05:54 PM
It's a small kitchen, Hols. Sat in his favourite chair next to the AGA facing the worktop, how could he miss anyone let alone Sheila loading a magazine and walking off with the Anschutz.
"Where are you off to, Sheila?" Oh, it's alright, dad... I'm just going upstairs to try out Jeremy's new rifle!"
You've asked that question umpteen times before! It was a fast moving situation as you said and JB wasn't bothered who the first victim was. That's why mother was shot first, because she was the nearest accesible person to the assailant entering the bedroom, possibly in semi-darkness and the reason why Nevill had the nous when he realised what was happening to quickly jump out of bed before the killer managed to get any shots at him.
If NB had his face to the wall ie standing over the kitchen units while talking with JB on the phone he might have been unaware of what was going on behind him. SC might have either found the mag loaded, or loaded it herself, prior to NB entering the kitchen.
I would like to view the bedroom photo (one with blood staining to bedding) with the bullet location and layout. I am unable to locate the bedroom photo and would be grateful if someone could help.
This is another with the hatched area showing where the bullets were probably fired from...
*&(+(+ Myster
Some of the bullet locations are marked by numbers. Others by what looks like a bullet. And the two slightly outside the bedroom by a squiggle? I assume some are fragments since the number in the diagram added with those elsewhere would exceed the total used?
I don't understand, if JB burst into the main bedroom via the door leading to the stairs/June's side and shot June in bed with NB fleeing his bed before he was shot, NB would need to walk into the direct line of fire/JB's path to exit the bedroom unless NB fled out the main bedroom into the box room but then this wouldn't account for the bullet wounds/location NB received June's side of the bed? &%+((£
Do we know if any of the internal doors were lockable and if so which ones?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on November 10, 2014, 10:30:26 PM
Some of the bullet locations are marked by numbers. Others by what looks like a bullet. And the two slightly outside the bedroom by a squiggle? I assume some are fragments since the number in the diagram added with those elsewhere would exceed the total used?
I don't understand, if JB burst into the main bedroom via the door leading to the stairs/June's side and shot June in bed with NB fleeing his bed before he was shot, NB would need to walk into the direct line of fire/JB's path to exit the bedroom unless NB fled out the main bedroom into the box room but then this wouldn't account for the bullet wounds/location NB received June's side of the bed? &%+((£
Do we know if any of the internal doors were lockable and if so which ones?
I assume the solid black ones are bullets minus the brass shells, and the rest are shell casings. There seem to be two number DRH7's, which stumped me when I took the screenshot off a Youtube video and probably why my arrow cursor is pointing to it.
Nevill might have pushed the assailant out of the way to get through the main bedroom door on his rush downstairs to the kitchen.
There could have been a lock on this door but whether it was secured is anyone's guess. Do people usually lock their bedroom doors, or leave them loose in case of fire? There was one on the Box Room door but without a key, although this is a later photo than the crime scene ones...
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 11, 2014, 05:25:32 PM
I assume the solid black ones are bullets minus the brass shells, and the rest are shell casings. There seem to be two number DRH7's, which stumped me when I took the screenshot off a Youtube video and probably why my arrow cursor is pointing to it.
Nevill might have pushed the assailant out of the way to get through the main bedroom door on his rush downstairs to the kitchen.
There could have been a lock on this door but whether it was secured is anyone's guess. Do people usually lock their bedroom doors, or leave them loose in case of fire? There was one on the Box Room door but without a key, although this is a later photo than the crime scene ones...
I dont think the bedroom soc is compatible with JB entering through the main bedroom door and shooting June and NB in that room. If I consider the guilty scenario of JB (considered a marksman) entering the main bedroom via the landing and first shooting June in Bed with NB fleeing his bed before any shots were fired, how did NB end up in the doorway as per the bullet location? Imo the innocent scenario of SC and NB in the kitchen, with NB distracted by making a call to JB, and SC moving upstairs to shoot June from the foot of the bed with NB dropping the phone, running upstairs and arriving at the entrance of the main bedroom appears more compatible with the soc/bullet location?
I'm unable to make out the wording in the shaded area. Think it might say position of shooter? If it does this would surely seem about right given the angle of shots /wounds and bullet location? I'm unable to work out how NB could flee his bed and get past JB without receiving any shots on NB's side of the bedroom.
I know there's N,E,S,W somewhere, but if I consider the head of the bed is N with June's side/main entrance is E, NB's side is W and the foot of the bed is S. The bullets were all found N/NE (excl SC's). It makes no sense to me how NB could move from W to S to E to NE and only receive shots in the NE zone.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on November 11, 2014, 08:13:27 PM
I dont think the bedroom soc is compatible with JB entering through the main bedroom door and shooting June and NB in that room. If I consider the guilty scenario of JB (considered a marksman) entering the main bedroom via the landing and first shooting June in Bed with NB fleeing his bed before any shots were fired, how did NB end up in the doorway as per the bullet location? Imo the innocent scenario of SC and NB in the kitchen, with NB distracted by making a call to JB, and SC moving upstairs to shoot June from the foot of the bed with NB dropping the phone, running upstairs and arriving at the entrance of the main bedroom appears more compatible with the soc/bullet location?
I'm unable to make out the wording in the shaded area. Think it might say position of shooter? If it does this would surely seem about right given the angle of shots /wounds and bullet location? I'm unable to work out how NB could flee his bed and get past JB without receiving any shots on NB's side of the bedroom.
I know there's N,E,S,W somewhere, but if I consider the head of the bed is N with June's side/main entrance is E, NB's side is W and the foot of the bed is S. The bullets were all found N/NE (excl SC's). It makes no sense to me how NB could move from W to S to E to NE and only receive shots in the NE zone.
The Anschutz ejects used shells from the right hand side exit hole, so the obvious place where shooter fired from is the hatched area where most of the shells ended up on the carpet, which is what it more or less says on the diagram. I worked out exactly what it did read once, but don't remember the exact wording.
I can't understand why you don't see how simple the answer is. The attacker's intention was to kill everybody with head shots while they were asleep (it worked successfully with the twins). Nevill was too sharp - his mouth wounds might have been received while in bed, although there is no evidence of blood on his pillow or bedclothes on his side of the bed. Maybe he got up too quickly for any to have dripped there, and only started to bleed profusely once he had got out of bed. Or he was shot while standing at his side of the bed, possibly near the end and facing towards the main doorway.
A plan specially made for you... (http://i.imgur.com/PzlDdKN.jpg?1)
Nevill didn't necessarily receive any shots in the NE zone... June was wandering about occupying that area after being shot anyway. The killer is thought to havestood in the hatched area and fired from there roughly westwards towards Nevill on his side of the bed. If Nevill was desperate to escape his attacker then he probably pushed his way past JB to get away from the onslaught. He might even have received the defence wounds to his forearm in the bedroom (rather than in the kitchen) before shoving his opponent out of the way. There was a bullet casing found on the stairs which probably accounted for the arm wound Nevill received on his way downstairs.
According to your theory, if Nevill came into the bedroom from the landing, then in order to receive the wounds to his mouth he must have moved fully into the room in the region of his own bedside and turned round to face his attacker. But the more likely scenario is that as soon as Nevill realised that Sheila had hold of a weapon, he would attempt was to disarm her, rather than waste time phoning his son or the police.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 12, 2014, 04:16:38 PM
The Anschutz ejects used shells from the right hand side exit hole, so the obvious place where shooter fired from is the hatched area where most of the shells ended up on the carpet, which is what it more or less says on the diagram. I worked out exactly what it did read once, but don't remember the exact wording.
I can't understand why you don't see how simple the answer is. The attacker's intention was to kill everybody with head shots while they were asleep (it worked successfully with the twins). Nevill was too sharp - his mouth wounds might have been received while in bed, although there is no evidence of blood on his pillow or bedclothes on his side of the bed. Maybe he got up too quickly for any to have dripped there, and only started to bleed profusely once he had got out of bed. Or he was shot while standing at his side of the bed, possibly near the end and facing towards the main doorway.
A plan specially made for you... (http://i.imgur.com/PzlDdKN.jpg?1)
Nevill didn't necessarily receive any shots in the NE zone... June was wandering about occupying that area after being shot anyway. The killer is thought to havestood in the hatched area and fired from there roughly westwards towards Nevill on his side of the bed. If Nevill was desperate to escape his attacker then he probably pushed his way past JB to get away from the onslaught. He might even have received the defence wounds to his forearm in the bedroom (rather than in the kitchen) before shoving his opponent out of the way. There was a bullet casing found on the stairs which probably accounted for the arm wound Nevill received on his way downstairs.
According to your theory, if Nevill came into the bedroom from the landing, then in order to receive the wounds to his mouth he must have moved fully into the room in the region of his own bedside and turned round to face his attacker. But the more likely scenario is that as soon as Nevill realised that Sheila had hold of a weapon, he would attempt was to disarm her, rather than waste time phoning his son or the police.
Thank you Myster.
I just cant get my head round JB, a marksman, letting NB escape from his side of the bed opposite to where JB was standing in the main entrance/hatched area. I think the pathologist was of the opinion that NB received the two facial shots and arm shot in the bedroom and shoulder shot (grazing) on the stairs with the four head shots in the kitchen. This doesn't exactly tie up with the bullet location as only three bullets were found in the kitchen?
It worked successfully with the twins as it appears (I hope) they were asleep and knew nothing of the unfolding horror. They did not leave their beds that's for certain. June and NB left their bed. NB's side the covers appear as though he sort of pulled them back over ? Whereas June's side they are not pulled back over just left back. I firmly believe that if JB caught NB and June unaware he would have fired successful head shots to both while their heads were on the pillow. He surely would have shot NB first.
It is said there was a bright moon on the night hence JB could see his way back clearly on the bike/sea wall. This being the case and assuming the curtains in the main bedroom didn't have black out lining ? then there would have been enough light for JB to see to get in headshots?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on November 12, 2014, 06:46:12 PM
I go with the pathologist... four headshots in the kitchen delivered in two groups, resulting in two wounds close together to the top right-hand side of the head and two similar ones just above the right ear, most likely while NB's head was resting in the scuttle, i.e. lower than the killer and his rifle. Three shell cases found on the kitchen floor under the table and the myth/speculation/truth that the fourth might have been carried upstairs on the sole of a policeman's boot. Could even have rolled its way under the Welsh-Dresser and/or was swept up unseen and lost in all the floor dirt and broken glass, then disposed of by the clean-up crew.
Bed clothes on Nevill's side could have been tidied up by JB while he was carefully arranging SC's body on the floor. In the same way he might have straightened the clothes on Sheila's bed to make it look as if it hadn't been slept in and she'd been wandering about in the night.
Sometimes things don't go according to plan, Holls. You might be a perfectionist, such as wanting to know distances down to the last millimetre (dare I mention OCD?). JB not necessarily so. His pumping adrenaline and nerves on edge might have played a part in wanting to get the whole thing over as quickly as possible, June being the nearest and easier target as he entered.
Depends on where the moon was in the sky and whether there was cloud cover during the incident. Possibly a warm early August night with the curtains drawn open so perhaps not totally dark inside. If the downstairs hall light or the landing light was turned on during the night (say for the twins' or Sheila's benefit) some stray light might have filtered its way into the bedroom aiding his vision as he opened the door.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on November 12, 2014, 10:01:01 PM
June Bamber was first shot as she sat in bed. After she was shot she fell back on her pillows before managing to get out of bed where she was shot again, this time fatally. Her body was found where she fell between the bed and the bedroom door. See official crimescene depiction below.
(http://i.imgur.com/pNkdjFU.png?1)
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2014, 12:54:08 PM
Untrue Holly. June was first shot as she sat in bed. After she was shot she fell back on her pillows before managing to get out of bed where she was shot again, this time fatally. Her body was found where she fell between the bed and the bedroom door. See official crimescene depiction below.
(http://i.imgur.com/pNkdjFU.png?1)
Yes sorry I didn't mean to imply that June died in bed but I do think she was severely disabled before getting out of bed and taking a step or two in the bedroom until she collapsed? She received the following shots:
Head x 2 - Dr V said these were the most serious and would probably have caused death quite rapidly, Chest x 2 - also serious but relatively longer to effect a fatal outcome Abdomen x 1 - " " " Arm x 1 - probably caused in an attempt to protect against firestorm Leg x 1 - " " "
Is it known from the pathological evidence which shots June received in bed and the order of all 7?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on November 13, 2014, 01:18:47 PM
There's an anomaly with the above CS plan and the two casings found on the landing and stairs (DRH13 & 14) which it says were associated with June during a "Second" episode, probably when the killer returned to make sure she was dead. So if this is accurate, Nevill must have received all his wounds (other than the four in the kitchen) within the bedroom, rather than a further one to his shoulder as he was going downstairs.
I don't understand why there are two DRH7 casings and two DRH35 bullets(?). Brass shell casings don't usually break apart when ejected, do they?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2014, 04:57:20 PM
There's an anomaly with the above CS plan and the two casings found on the landing and stairs (DRH13 & 14) which it says were associated with June during a "Second" episode, probably when the killer returned to make sure she was dead. So if this is accurate, Nevill must have received all his wounds (other than the four in the kitchen) within the bedroom, rather than a further one to his shoulder as he was going downstairs.
I don't understand why there are two DRH7 casings and two DRH35 bullets(?). Brass shell casings don't usually break apart when ejected, do they?
I must confess this is not an aspect of the case I am familiar with so please don't shoot me down in flames if I say something daft! I assume that the pathologist removes all bullets and fragments and they are identified by some sort of scan/xray? And if he was unable to remove complete or partial bullets he would state such?
Why is the style of numbering on 13 and 14 slightly different? Does this denote another room?
We know for sure June received 7 gunshot wounds and NB 8 gunshot wounds. Dr V recovered 4 whole bullets from June and 7 whole bullets and 1 fragment from NB. A total of 12 cases are shown in CS diagram (excl SC) and 3 further cases were found in the kitchen. I think maybe 35 and 7 have been transposed and should represent a bullet and case for each of 35 and 7? One of the bullets found in the bedroom must represent the bulk of the bullet that NB received which fragmented? In any event it cannot be correct that bullet 5,9, 35 and 35 are attributed to June since she was shot 7 times and Dr V recovered 4 whole bullets? (I guess 35 could have fragmented as it exited/ricocheted and 7 could represent the case and the bulk of the bullet that NB received which fragmented?). Like many WHF case related documents they are of poor quality in terms of accuracy and clarity.
DRH 13 and 15 have a question mark by them so I guess the author was unsure?
I have always found the pathology report ambiguous in that I don't find it entirely conclusive that NB received the four head shots in the kitchen? Dr V seems to leave it open for that interpretation?
NB's blood type/group was found on wallpaper in the hall near the kitchen door? I assume this was caused by NB brushing against the wall?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on November 13, 2014, 07:15:52 PM
I must confess this is not an aspect of the case I am familiar with so please don't shoot me down in flames if I say something daft! I assume that the pathologist removes all bullets and fragments and they are identified by some sort of scan/xray? And if he was unable to remove complete or partial bullets he would state such?
You're way too bright a flame to be extinguished so easily! (just like one of those birthday cake candles that are impossible to blow out).
Obviously hidden bullets and fragments are recorded by X-ray before PM begins, as in the case of SC's neck radiograph, the only one available to us, so others must have been taken. It's normal to state if any can't be removed, but again I've not seen any reference to this in the pathology reports.
We know for sure June received 7 gunshot wounds and NB 8 gunshot wounds. Dr V recovered 4 whole bullets from June and 7 whole bullets and 1 fragment from NB. A total of 12 cases are shown in CS diagram (excl SC) and 3 further cases were found in the kitchen. I think maybe 35 and 7 have been transposed and should represent a bullet and case for each of 35 and 7? One of the bullets found in the bedroom must represent the bulk of the bullet that NB received which fragmented? In any event it cannot be correct that bullet 5,9, 35 and 35 are attributed to June since she was shot 7 times and Dr V recovered 4 whole bullets? (I guess 35 could have fragmented as it exited/ricocheted and 7 could represent the case and the bulk of the bullet that NB received which fragmented?). Like many WHF case related documents they are of poor quality in terms of accuracy and clarity.
The dual numbering of 7 and 35 doesn't make sense to me. The later diagram is probably more accurate after the police had thought through and revised the number and positions of bullets and cases. The end result is the same - Nevill Bamber was first shot in the bedroom before making his way to the kitchen.
DRH 13 and 15 have a question mark by them so I guess the author was unsure?
You mean DRH 13 & 14? "from doorway?" can be interpreted in different ways. If it just refers to 14 it could mean that 14 found its way down to the stair half-landing "from the doorway"... or if it refers to both 13 & 14 then it could mean that the bullets were fired from the landing doorway rather than from within the hatched bedroom area.
I have always found the pathology report ambiguous in that I don't find it entirely conclusive that NB received the four head shots in the kitchen? Dr V seems to leave it open for that interpretation?
I think Vanezis is quite specific that all four head wounds 1, 2, 3 and 4 were received downstairs... see attached pathology sheets.
NB's blood type/group was found on wallpaper in the hall near the kitchen door? I assume this was caused by NB brushing against the wall?
Don't know how large this stain was or how high up on the wall, but it might have come from blood sprayed from the mouth wounds, or dripping from his left arm or shoulder wound.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on November 14, 2014, 11:13:37 AM
It has always been my understanding that DRH 7 and DRH 35 were matched casings/bullets used to shoot Junes in bed. The referencing being two bullets DRH 35 and their respective casings DRH 7.
Casings DRH 39 are also referenced as a pair. In total I count 25 casings with the victims sustaining 25 wounds as follows:
Nevill shot 8 times June shot 7 times Daniel shot 5 times Nicholas shot 3 times Sheila shot twice
I agree with your observation above re the assignment of the bullets Myster. June sustained three exits wounds thus DRH 35 times 2 and DRH 9. DRH 5 must therefore relate to Nevill who had only one exit wound.
I also cannot see how casings DRH 13 and DRH 14 could possibly relate to June so can only relate to Nevill as do DRH 3, DRH 4 and DRH 43. That thus accounts for all 12 casings associated with Nevill and June in and near the bedroom. Add the three further casings from the kitchen gives a total of 15 casings which equates to Nevill being shot 8 times and June 7 times.
Now my brain is sore so off for a frigging coffee!
(http://i.imgur.com/pNkdjFU.png?1)
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 14, 2014, 05:26:31 PM
The Anschutz ejects used shells from the right hand side exit hole, so the obvious place where shooter fired from is the hatched area where most of the shells ended up on the carpet, which is what it more or less says on the diagram. I worked out exactly what it did read once, but don't remember the exact wording.
I can't understand why you don't see how simple the answer is. The attacker's intention was to kill everybody with head shots while they were asleep (it worked successfully with the twins). Nevill was too sharp - his mouth wounds might have been received while in bed, although there is no evidence of blood on his pillow or bedclothes on his side of the bed. Maybe he got up too quickly for any to have dripped there, and only started to bleed profusely once he had got out of bed.Or he was shot while standing at his side of the bed, possibly near the end and facing towards the main doorway.
A plan specially made for you... (http://i.imgur.com/PzlDdKN.jpg?1)
Nevill didn't necessarily receive any shots in the NE zone... June was wandering about occupying that area after being shot anyway. The killer is thought to havestood in the hatched area and fired from there roughly westwards towards Nevill on his side of the bed. If Nevill was desperate to escape his attacker then he probably pushed his way past JB to get away from the onslaught. He might even have received the defence wounds to his forearm in the bedroom (rather than in the kitchen) before shoving his opponent out of the way. There was a bullet casing found on the stairs which probably accounted for the arm wound Nevill received on his way downstairs.
According to your theory, if Nevill came into the bedroom from the landing, then in order to receive the wounds to his mouth he must have moved fully into the room in the region of his own bedside and turned round to face his attacker. But the more likely scenario is that as soon as Nevill realised that Sheila had hold of a weapon, he would attempt was to disarm her, rather than waste time phoning his son or the police.
The pathological evidence states the blood loss from NB's face wounds would be substantial as the area contains a rich blood supply. Therefore I am surprised that none of NB's blood was found on the tested samples of the bedroom carpet if he received gunshot wounds while in bed or anywhere near his side of the bed/foot of bed.
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber. Wallpaper from the hallway to the left-hand side of the kitchen door was found, on examination, to be stained with human blood consistent with the blood grouping shared by Nevill Bamber and the twin boys. Since the boys seem to have been shot in their beds, it is a clear inference that this was Mr. Bamber's blood.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on November 14, 2014, 07:23:01 PM
The pathological evidence states the blood loss from NB's face wounds would be substantial as the area contains a rich blood supply. Therefore I am surprised that none of NB's blood was found on the tested samples of the bedroom carpet if he received gunshot wounds while in bed or anywhere near his side of the bed/foot of bed.
57. Five carpet samples taken from the main bedroom were examined and found to bear numerous spots of dripped blood. These were tested and found to match the blood groupings of June Bamber. Wallpaper from the hallway to the left-hand side of the kitchen door was found, on examination, to be stained with human blood consistent with the blood grouping shared by Nevill Bamber and the twin boys. Since the boys seem to have been shot in their beds, it is a clear inference that this was Mr. Bamber's blood.
I expect Nevill's first reaction to being shot in the mouth was to put his hand(s) to the wound to stem the blood flow, some of it being swallowed and some soaking into his pyjama top. So in the few seconds when he was trying to escape none dripped onto the carpet, whereas June wandered around the room for longer hence her blood being present. There might even have been other parts of the carpet (underneath Sheila for example) or the bedclothes which did have his blood but weren't analysed, because Jeremy Bamber was crafty enough to sign a disposal agreement to have the effects burned before the police had second thoughts on the murder/suicide theory.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on November 17, 2014, 05:11:23 PM
You can clearly see in the above diag where the ejected shells in the bedroom all ended up proving that the gunman was standing in the bedroom somewhere between the door and the end of the bed.
I don't believe for a moment that Jeremy was able to get into the bedroom and shoot Neville as he lay in bed. In fact, I would be surprised if someone like Nevill Bamber didn't lock his bedroom door at night as a further security measure against intruders but I don't recall having seen any mention of this in any statements. If the door was locked then Neville had to open it from the inside as there is no evidence of it being forced. When he opened it he would have been faced by a rifle wielding Jeremy. It is my belief that he was shot at close range at least twice before Jeremy turned the gun on June as she lay or sat up in bed. Bamber would have been shocked to find that two bullets were not enough to kill so emptied his magazine into his parents forcing him to retreat and seek additional ammunition from downstairs.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 18, 2014, 04:48:15 PM
You can clearly see in the above diag where the ejected shells in the bedroom all ended up proving that the gunman was standing in the bedroom somewhere between the door and the end of the bed.
I don't believe for a moment that Jeremy was able to get into the bedroom and shoot Neville as he lay in bed. In fact, I would be surprised if someone like Nevill Bamber didn't lock his bedroom door at night as a further security measure against intruders but I don't recall having seen any mention of this in any statements. If the door was locked then Neville had to open out from the inside as there is no evidence of it being forced. When he opened it he would have been faced by a rifle wielding Jeremy. It is my belief that he was shot at close range at least twice before Jeremy turned the gun on June as she lay or sat up in bed. Bamber would have been shocked to find that two bullets were not enough to kill so emptied his magazine into his parents forcing him to seek additional ammunition from downstairs.
Is there any evidence showing June's position when she received the shots in bed?
Carpet samples taken from the bedroom only show June's blood type/group. Why was none of NB's found? Were any blood trails found from the bedroom to the kitchen? And if yes why were carpet samples not taken from these locations? NB's blood type/group was found on wallpaper between the hall and kitchen? Was any of NB's blood type/group found on the kitchen floor other than around his final resting place? 8(8-))
It seems unlikely that JB/SC entered the main bedroom via the twins' room/box room?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: scipio_usmc on November 20, 2014, 11:50:31 PM
Why was NB not shot in bed? Why would JB not deal with his greatest obstacle in order of priority? Why would JB shoot/maim June a petite woman of perhaps a slightly anxious disposition before shooting/maiming NB a powerfully built man who was military trained? NB was shot well away from the bed while he was standing. JB was considered a marksman so he would have been more than capable of successful head shots. He could then have fired other random shots to make it appear amateurish/frenzied.
How could he claim Nevill phoned him if both were shot and killed in bed? He needed Nevill out of bed to be able to pretend Nevill made a phone call to him. The phone call was integral to his plan so integral he told Julie in advance about such. The pretend call from Nevill was both his alibi and also a significant part of his effort to frame Sheila.
Saying Nevill called him would not be credible if Nevill had been killed in bed. It still ended up not being credible because he shot Nevill upstairs before he made it downstairs to the kitchen but Jeremy didn't realize they would figure out he was shot upstairs first.
As for what you choose to believe regarding Neivll making the call:
Hearing gunshots would not prompt him to hang the phone up and hang up the phone or just drop the phone and go check it out. He would not take the time to hang the phone up and then take it off the hook so no one can call the house while he goes to check.
In the meantime he would have had no reason to call Jeremy. You ignore that time and again.
1) Why would he leave Sheila alone so she could go threaten June and the boys and why would June stay in bed?
2) If he felt Sheila needed to be disarmed why would he not do it himself? Why would he call Jeremy who would take 15 or more minutes to arrive instead of doing it himself? He was stronger than Jeremy and bigger than Jeremy and of course much stronge rand bigger than Sheila. Why would he want a weaker person who woudl take a while to get there to do it instead of doing it himself? With time of the essence you do it yourself.
3) If he was too scared to disarm her himself without any weapons why wouldn't he grab one of the weapons available in the kitchen to use to confront her with? The kitchen had knives, pokers, guns and other weapons. If extremely worried tyou grab a gun that is the ultimate weapon to use to confront someone with a gun.
4) Jeremy did not get along with Sheila and would have made matters worse not calm her down
5) Jeremy had an answering machine and the phone was on a different floor than his bedroom so Nevill would have gotten an answering machine and had to hope Jeremy would wake up, go to his answering machine, listen to the message and call back.
6) If Jeremy actually received such a call why would he initially do nothing then call Julie? SOmeone actually receiving such a call would phone 999 or rush right over not do nothing and then when finally deciding to do something to call Julie. Worse he lied and insisted he immediately called police though we know for sure he called Julie first. Why did he lie about calling police first? Quite clearly because he knew that gave away the fact he received no such call and Julie's testimony makes that clear.
You also ignore all the evidence that proves Sheial can't have killed anyone and thus there would be no reaosn for Nevill to make a call saying SHeila was running around with a gun.
But as they say ignorance is bliss and since you can make up any nonsense you feel like you don't really care about what the evidence shows...
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on November 21, 2014, 01:02:15 AM
I agree that the fake telephone call by Nevill was part of the plan but I think Jeremy had to stop Nevill leaving the bedroom otherwise as Holly stated earlier he was a threat to the entire scheme. No doubt Jeremy conceived a plan whereby Nevill went down to the kitchen, made the call before returning to the bedroom where a deranged Sheila shot him. This plan backfired (sorry about pun) because Jeremy seriously underestimated the stopping power of the .22 rifle.
Nevill wasn't shot in bed because he was alerted to an intruder in the house, an alert which most probably was made by June Bambers dog Crispy. The bedroom door would have been barred from the inside so when Nevill realised he had no phone in the bedroom he realised he needed to get to the kitchen in order to summon help. He was shot several times just inside the bedroom after opening the door, the shooter then turned his attention to June who was still in bed at this stage and shot her several times.
Nevill somehow managed to stumble down the stairs and ended up in the kitchen. What isn't known is whether the shooter went down to the kitchen to get more ammunition and was followed by Nevill or whether the shooter followed Neville down the stairs before fighting with him in the kitchen. An empty shell casing was found at the bottom of the stairs but there is no way of knowing for sure how it got there.
The basic sequence of events can easily be determined, the shootings in the master bedroom followed by the fight with Neville in the kitchen followed by what only can be considered as his execution thereafter by three further shots to his head.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on November 21, 2014, 03:10:55 AM
I don't believe there was any way Sheila could have threatened Nevill with the rifle as he could have disarmed her very easily. Even if she got off one shot he could still have overpowered her by force.
And all the while we are asked to believe that June lay in bed paralysed by fear. I don't think so. &%&£(+
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 21, 2014, 12:32:16 PM
I don't believe there was any way Sheila could have threatened Nevill with the rifle as he could have disarmed her very easily. Even if she got off one shot he could still have overpowered her by force.
And all the while we are asked to believe that June lay in bed paralysed by fear. I don't think so. &%&£(+
I don't believe June lay in bed paralysed by fear. I think the shots she received whilst in bed rendered her severely disabled so much that all she was capable of doing was leaving her bed, taking a couple of steps and collapsing on the floor 8(8-))
When NB appeared at the bedroom door, having left the kitchen/phone call to JB, the shots he received to his face and arm rendered him severely disabled too so much that all he was capable of doing was retreating to the kitchen where he was effectively a sitting duck 8(8-))
I think some hold stereotypical images of females being incapable of serious violence and aggression. I am reminded of the cases of Tracie Andrews and Jayne Andrews. Both murdered their partners who were young, fit, healthy, strong and athletic males. Tracie Andrews stabbed her partner, Lee Harvey, 30 - 40 times with a penknife. Why didn't he overpower her? Jayne Andrews clubbed her partner, Thomas Cressman, with a cricket bat and stabbed him. Why didn't he overpower her?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: abs on November 23, 2014, 10:33:23 PM
In one of the two crime scene photos I have of June, there is a clear barefoot footprint in the carpet. I don´t like to post the entire photo, it is graphic. Here it is cropped. I could post a link, but don´t want to do that without permission.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 24, 2014, 08:36:45 AM
In one of the two crime scene photos I have of June, there is a clear barefoot footprint in the carpet. I don´t like to post the entire photo, it is graphic. Here it is cropped. I could post a link, but don´t want to do that without permission.
Ummm. Yes around the toe area but no at the arch which appears to be too much at an angle? It reminds me of a footprint in wet sand that sort of moves?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 05, 2015, 12:02:45 PM
There was no phone call from Nevill to the police that morning... the only one they received was from Jeremy Bamber.
Most of the shell casings were found on the floor of the master bedroom, so Nevill was shot and wounded there, not on the stairs lower down than his assailant.
The casings were in the bedroom, indicating the gun was fired in the bedroom, not whether Nevill was standing in it or in the doorway.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 05, 2015, 12:14:30 PM
There was no phone call from Nevill to the police that morning... the only one they received was from Jeremy Bamber.
Most of the shell casings were found on the floor of the master bedroom, so Nevill was shot and wounded there, not on the stairs lower down than his assailant.
If NB was shot and wounded in the bedroom why wasnt any of his blood found on the carpet or bedding? The two gunshot wounds he sustained to his face contained a rich supply of blood hence Dr V said there would be heavy blood loss internally and externally.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 05, 2015, 12:38:53 PM
If NB was shot and wounded in the bedroom why wasnt any of his blood found on the carpet or bedding? The two gunshot wounds he sustained to his face contained a rich supply of blood hence Dr V said there would be heavy blood loss internally and externally.
Quite: ever seen how much blood comes from just a nosebleed?!
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 05, 2015, 12:42:11 PM
Thanks for that Holly: so ignoring the 2 by Sheila, there were 10 bullet casings found in the bedroom and 2 outside the door/on the stairs (and I think from another diagram another one on the landing)?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on August 05, 2015, 12:56:07 PM
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 05, 2015, 02:13:49 PM
Thank you for the links Myster. I've read a lot of your discussions when doing google searches prior to joining, but can never find them again now I've joined the forum.
As Holly points out though, the blood group on the socks indicates it was June's blood not Nevills - and I think the least likely scenario is that JB would shoot June before Nevill. I think if Bamber did it either he would dispatch the twins first as the morally most horrific (so easier whilst asleep) or Nevill as his greatest adversary who might thwart him, or Sheila because she needed one clean shot without a fight. It seems to me that in the bedroom June was shot before Nevill, and was shot so badly that if Nevill had been present he would have, at the very least, thrown his body over hers: I don't think he would have left her incapacitated with the murderer undoubtedly going to finish her off whilst he was trying to escape to the phone.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 01:32:19 AM
Thank you Myster: the drawings are certainly helpful as well.
As a point of interest, if the casings fly right and possibly forwards the two found near Sheila should be under the bed if someone else shot her. In order to lie down and shoot oneself one might find it very awkward balancing the gun the 'normal' way up and either lie it on its side (forcing the casings either into her or up in the air - the latter making them land on or near her body) or more likely hold it upside down with the butt steadied between the legs and squeeze the trigger with the right thumb, pushing away from the head - which would fire the casings to Sheila's right, where they were found.
A murderer would have to show extraordinary presence of mind to work that one out and shoot her with gun held upside down, or even to think of repositioning the casings.
I feel quite chuffed with that: I'd just put the Black Cap on for Bamber, but I think that's good enough for a temporary reprieve (until you doubtless explain something to confound it ;-) )
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2015, 06:23:46 PM
Thank you for the links Myster. I've read a lot of your discussions when doing google searches prior to joining, but can never find them again now I've joined the forum.
As Holly points out though, the blood group on the socks indicates it was June's blood not Nevills - and I think the least likely scenario is that JB would shoot June before Nevill. I think if Bamber did it either he would dispatch the twins first as the morally most horrific (so easier whilst asleep) or Nevill as his greatest adversary who might thwart him, or Sheila because she needed one clean shot without a fight. It seems to me that in the bedroom June was shot before Nevill, and was shot so badly that if Nevill had been present he would have, at the very least, thrown his body over hers: I don't think he would have left her incapacitated with the murderer undoubtedly going to finish her off whilst he was trying to escape to the phone.
I don't see the twins being shot first. Dr Vanezis was of the opinion that all eight bullets were fired at the same time. They appeared to be in an arc on one twin. Why would JB take the risk of alerting his dad if asleep or dozing in bed, by the noise of eight shots resounding around the upstairs rooms, especially if he was the one most likely to provide the greatest resistance. I think the first thing Nevill would do is to jump out of bed in an effort to grab the rifle and stop the onslaught, not become a passive victim himself. It's a matter of self-preservation.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2015, 06:51:23 PM
Thank you Myster: the drawings are certainly helpful as well.
As a point of interest, if the casings fly right and possibly forwards the two found near Sheila should be under the bed if someone else shot her. In order to lie down and shoot oneself one might find it very awkward balancing the gun the 'normal' way up and either lie it on its side (forcing the casings either into her or up in the air - the latter making them land on or near her body) or more likely hold it upside down with the butt steadied between the legs and squeeze the trigger with the right thumb, pushing away from the head - which would fire the casings to Sheila's right, where they were found.
A murderer would have to show extraordinary presence of mind to work that one out and shoot her with gun held upside down, or even to think of repositioning the casings.
I feel quite chuffed with that: I'd just put the Black Cap on for Bamber, but I think that's good enough for a temporary reprieve (until you doubtless explain something to confound it ;-) )
The casings need not have flown under the bed. The mattress sides shielded the space below to an extent and could easily take the inertia away from and deflect the two casings back, if that was where they hit. Bamber might have fiddled with their position as well.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on August 06, 2015, 07:30:04 PM
There is something which has always bothered me in relation to the spread of the empty bullet casings and with Passer-by asking a related question recently I have additional thoughts on this.
Referring to the forensics photo below, my original view was that the empty shell casings lying by Junes side of the bed were from the bullets which killed her and that the ones just inside the door related to Nevill. The forensic science report was effectively saying the same thing.
But! ...and this is a big but. If the .22 Anschutz ejected shell casings to the right then assuming the killer stood just inside the door to shoot Nevill, then the ejected casings would have been sent towards June.
Similarly, when Jeremy shot June, the ejected casings would have been directed towards the door.
(http://i.imgur.com/pNkdjFU.png?1)
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on August 06, 2015, 07:32:07 PM
This raises a very interesting point in relation to Sheila because if she had been shot where she was found the shell casings would have ended up on the bed and NOT on the floor either side of her head??
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 07:35:35 PM
Thanks for re-threading this John!
Myster possibility is infinite!
But if she was lying down and the shot staged, the casing would have flown low down and more likely to have fallen between the bed and the body if they had hit the bed: either they were going at such a velocity they would have embedded in it, or more likely only having light momentum in the first place (the shots didn't even exit the victims' bodies) the bed would have completely absorbed the energy and they would have dropped. I see the bed was a divan with padded/upholstered sides, so unlikely to ricochet.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 07:39:54 PM
This raises a very interesting point in relation to Sheila because if she had been shot where she was found the shell casing would have ended up on the bed and NOT on the floor either side of her head??
Exactly.
But the pooling of her blood and the stains on her nightshirt strongly suggest she was shot where she lay. If she had been shot elsewhere and moved to the side of the bed the amount of blood she was leaking there'd have been a hell of a mess and a trail of blood left behind on the carpet.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 07:43:24 PM
There is something which has always bothered me in relation to the spread of the empty bullet casings and with Passer-by asking a related question recently I have additional thoughts on this.
Referring to the forensics photo below, my original view was that the empty shell casings lying by Junes side of the bed were from the bullets which killed her and that the ones just inside the door related to Nevill. The forensic science report was effectively saying the same thing.
But! ...and this is a big but. If the .22 Anschutz ejected shell casings to the right then assuming the killer stood just inside the door to shoot Nevill, then the ejected casings would have been sent towards June.
Similarly, when Jeremy shot June, the ejected casings would have been directed towards the door.
(http://i.imgur.com/pNkdjFU.png?1)
I partly agree, except I don't see how June left so much blood on the bed and Nevill didn't. I think Sheila was shot from the door by someone moving forward to the end of the bed as they shot (hence bullet up the inside of the leg) but I think the casings bottom right were fired when they were standing in the room but firing from the end of the bed through the door at Nevill. I think the killer returned later for a couple of last shots to make sure June was dead after the shock of Nevill taking so much more than they'd expected.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 07:50:04 PM
This might be a better place to repost the link about suicide ballistic advice, in particular double-shot suicide.
Although less common, it's common enough. Causes included the suicidee flinching on the first shot and making a mess of it so having a second go and also muscle-spasm which is actually sufficient to keep the finger pulling on the trigger long enough and hard enough for a second shot to be fired after the person is dead, but this tends to mostly happen with .22 automatic rifles because they are so much easier to fire.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 07:56:40 PM
PS I'm pretty certain in the other picture of where the casings were found both next to SC were over to her right?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2015, 08:28:04 PM
This raises a very interesting point in relation to Sheila because if she had been shot where she was found the shell casings would have ended up on the bed and NOT on the floor either side of her head??
Bamber was crouched/kneeling holding the rifle horizontal, level with the mattress side(s), and pointing at Sheila who was sitting upright. The first shot tracks straight through her neck to fracture the fourth vertebra. The shell casing hits the mattress side (maybe the bedside cabinet as well) and bounces off landing on her right-side (DRH1). Sheila falls back. Bamber, still crouched fires again, this time with the rifle nearly parallel with her body so that the bullet travels directly into the brain. Shell casing again hits the mattress side but is cushioned more than the first and lands in the corner on Sheila's left-side (DRH2).
I rest my case. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on August 06, 2015, 08:32:14 PM
Bamber was crouched/kneeling holding the rifle horizontal, level with the mattress side(s), and pointing at Sheila who was sitting upright. The first shot tracks straight through her neck to fracture the fourth vertebra. The shell casing hits the mattress side (maybe the bedside cabinet as well) and bounces off landing on her right-side (DRH1). Sheila falls back. Bamber, still crouched fires again, this time with the rifle nearly parallel with her body so that the bullet travels directly into the brain. Shell casing again hits the mattress side but is cushioned more than the first and lands in the corner on Sheila's left-side (DRH2).
I rest my case. 8((()*/
Its all possible certainly, I don't think we will ever know for sure.
Mystery, do you agree about the casings found near June?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 09:22:06 PM
Bamber was crouched/kneeling holding the rifle horizontal, level with the mattress side(s), and pointing at Sheila who was sitting upright. The first shot tracks straight through her neck to fracture the fourth vertebra. The shell casing hits the mattress side (maybe the bedside cabinet as well) and bounces off landing on her right-side (DRH1). Sheila falls back. Bamber, still crouched fires again, this time with the rifle nearly parallel with her body so that the bullet travels directly into the brain. Shell casing again hits the mattress side but is cushioned more than the first and lands in the corner on Sheila's left-side (DRH2).
I rest my case. 8((()*/
Not at all: one of the theories I put forward was that the gun could have been on its side to be comfortable to fire - as it is in the photographs. Then the casings would have ejected up into the air and down. If he was staging it and she was co-operating I don't think he'd have her on the floor by the bed, he'd have her by June or in the bed, or in her own bed. The place she was found was too odd for a staged murder, but had the randomness of spontaneity and fits with the fact that bible lived in that bedside table, and presumably she wanted to read it.
I can't believe SC sat still for all that either, it has so much less probability than her doing it herself. To take that further, right-handed people tend to shoot themselves on the right hand side of their body, left-handed on the left - SC's wounds are to the right side of her throat: another small detail a murderer wouldn't have thought if. And female suicides tend more to shooting in the neck rather than the mouth or temple, which both disfigure the face.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 09:26:52 PM
You mean this one? DRH1 is well away from where it should have ended up unless Sheila was first shot nearer the bottom of the bed.
(http://i.imgur.com/au6sYl2.jpg)
Thank you, yes: actually DRH1 is where it should be for a suicide.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 10:03:14 PM
Tappity-tap: you're all ignoring my double-shot suicides . . .
"A fairly common problem is the apparently suicide that has fired two shots into the head. Even in the case of instantaneous death and destruction of the basal ganglia, double head shots are possible in suicides. There is a phenomenon called "cadarvic spasm" which is an intense non-specific, uncontrolled contraction of the muscles of the limbs immediately after death. This is quite capable of causing a second pulling of the trigger after death."
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2015, 10:19:56 PM
Not at all: one of the theories I put forward was that the gun could have been on its side to be comfortable to fire - as it is in the photographs. Then the casings would have ejected up into the air and down. If he was staging it and she was co-operating I don't think he'd have her on the floor by the bed, he'd have her by June or in the bed, or in her own bed. The place she was found was too odd for a staged murder, but had the randomness of spontaneity and fits with the fact that bible lived in that bedside table, and presumably she wanted to read it.
I can't believe SC sat still for all that either, it has so much less probability than her doing it herself. To take that further, right-handed people tend to shoot themselves on the right hand side of their body, left-handed on the left - SC's wounds are to the right side of her throat: another small detail a murderer wouldn't have thought if. And female suicides tend more to shooting in the neck rather than the mouth or temple, which both disfigure the face.
Maybe she was crouched by the side of the bed hiding from her brother when she heard him come back upstairs from his fight with Nevill in the kitchen, and that's where he found her. She was drowsy from the Haloperidol treatment and compliant. She might even have fainted as the first neck shot was fired.
If Paul Harrison, and Bamber's flights of fantasy are to be believed then she got him to shoot her away from the twins, because she didn't want them to see her die.
The bible wasn't in Nevill's bedside table either. June kept it on her own side. 40-15
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2015, 10:28:35 PM
Tappity-tap: you're all ignoring my double-shot suicides . . .
"A fairly common problem is the apparently suicide that has fired two shots into the head. Even in the case of instantaneous death and destruction of the basal ganglia, double head shots are possible in suicides. There is a phenomenon called "cadarvic spasm" which is an intense non-specific, uncontrolled contraction of the muscles of the limbs immediately after death. This is quite capable of causing a second pulling of the trigger after death."
After the first neck shot the rifle would have dropped away from her body because she fell backwards and would have had to reach out for it again to realign for the second shot. She wasn't killed by the first shot, hence cadaveric spasm doesn't come into play.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 10:39:12 PM
After the first neck shot the rifle would have dropped away from her body because she fell backwards and would have had to reach out for it again to realign for the second shot. She wasn't killed by the first shot, hence cadaveric spasm doesn't come into play.
What's all this 'falling backwards'? She was clearly lying straight out on the floor with her head slightly supported by the bedside cabinet. No falling backwards, no need to realign the next shot. After what I just posted about cadaver spasm you can't state which was the first shot 8)-)))
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 10:47:37 PM
What is more, if we go with the obvious - that she
Was lying down - because that's how she was found Had the gun resting partially on its left side on her body - because that's how it was found Had the bullet casing land slightly forward to her right
It is clear that even if it wasn't cadaveric spasm it could still have been a poor first shot immediately followed by a second successful one right after - both hands would have been grasping the gun, the left on the barrel, the right on the trigger, so it wouldn't have gone anywhere.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 10:49:06 PM
It's suicide.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2015, 11:01:55 PM
What's all this 'falling backwards'? She was clearly lying straight out on the floor with her head slightly supported by the bedside cabinet. No falling backwards, no need to realign the next shot. After what I just posted about cadaver spasm you can't state which was the first shot 8)-)))
To clarify... she was sitting upright and her upper body fell backwards after the searing impact of the first bullet, the rifle being held almost perpendicular to her neck as Vanezis states. This pierced her jugular and shattered the vertebra, but did not kill her outright (left wound)*. The rifle would then need realigning almost parallel to her body for the bullet to travel through the hard palate straight up into the brain causing instant death (right wound)*.
The Land of Nod beckons.
*photograph view
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on August 06, 2015, 11:03:26 PM
... and it's Murder with a capital M.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 06, 2015, 11:22:58 PM
CAL P195:
"Vanezis declared in court that having taken into account the pattern of bloodstaining, 'both injuries were produced while she was slightly on her right side and partially sitting up.'
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 11:31:17 PM
"Vanezis declared in court that having taken into account the pattern of bloodstaining, 'both injuries were produced while she was slightly on her right side and partially sitting up.'
"Partially" meaning anything other than lying flat. It's easy to see from the awkwardness of her head in the photos that her head was slightly elevated by the cabinet.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Anna on August 06, 2015, 11:40:03 PM
"Partially" meaning anything other than lying flat. It's easy to see from the awkwardness of her head in the photos that her head was slightly elevated by the cabinet.
Could she have wedged the gun on the side of the bed and then under her neck, to enable the reach, with her body tilted to the right. Which side did she have a hand resting on her shoulder....out of the way?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 06, 2015, 11:50:57 PM
Could she have wedged the gun on the side of the bed and then under her neck, to enable the reach, with her body tilted to the right. Which side did she have a hand resting on her shoulder....out of the way?
It's not resting out of the way: it will have been holding the end of the rifle to her throat, then slipped away. My theory fits the bloodstains, I've just checked the whole upper-body photo (which I'm not going to repost as this is pretty ghoulish as we approach the actual hour of the anniversary) and her body will only have been very slightly raised at the head end.
If Nevill can run up and down stairs having been shot in the head, this woman can, undoubtedly, reposition the gun she is still holding and take a second shot.
The casing landed where it should have.
My theory fits the crime scene: it doesn't have lots of things which may have been here, there, or somewhere else.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 07, 2015, 12:56:40 PM
What is more, if we go with the obvious - that she
Was lying down - because that's how she was found Had the gun resting partially on its left side on her body - because that's how it was found Had the bullet casing land slightly forward to her right
It is clear that even if it wasn't cadaveric spasm it could still have been a poor first shot immediately followed by a second successful one right after - both hands would have been grasping the gun, the left on the barrel, the right on the trigger, so it wouldn't have gone anywhere.
It's not resting out of the way: it will have been holding the end of the rifle to her throat, then slipped away. My theory fits the bloodstains, I've just checked the whole upper-body photo (which I'm not going to repost as this is pretty ghoulish as we approach the actual hour of the anniversary) and her body will only have been very slightly raised at the head end.
If Nevill can run up and down stairs having been shot in the head, this woman can, undoubtedly, reposition the gun she is still holding and take a second shot.
The casing landed where it should have.
My theory fits the crime scene: it doesn't have lots of things which may have been here, there, or somewhere else.
I'm not really sure what point you're endeavouring to make Passer-by? Dr V has always stated he is unable to confirm murder or suicide? And as far as I'm aware that is still his current position from a pathological perspective. At the time he said along the lines that he was a little uncomfortable with the two gunshot wounds to SC although he could find nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory and had experienced 3/4 suicides with more than one gunshot wound in the past. He did not see the victims at the SoC but numerous photos were taken and 4 officers were present during PM to brief him. There was obviously nothing glaringly obvious to contradict the murder/suicide theory. I guess as Dr V was unable to say one way or another he has allowed other aspects of the investigation to prevail. In this case the pathological evidence just adds to the mystery and speculation. I can't see how anything further can be advanced here?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 07, 2015, 01:03:08 PM
By the bullet casing which projectiles right being on SC's left - it throws a different light on who was holding the gun because it was being held the other way up for suicide than it would be for murder.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 07, 2015, 01:20:09 PM
By the bullet casing which projectiles right being on SC's left - it throws a different light on who was holding the gun because it was being held the other way up for suicide than it would be for murder.
Yes good points. I thought you were querying the two gunshot wounds.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 07, 2015, 01:22:02 PM
I'm not really sure what point you're endeavouring to make Passer-by? Dr V has always stated he is unable to confirm murder or suicide? And as far as I'm aware that is still his current position from a pathological perspective. At the time he said along the lines that he was a little uncomfortable with the two gunshot wounds to SC although he could find nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory and had experienced 3/4 suicides with more than one gunshot wound in the past. He did not see the victims at the SoC but numerous photos were taken and 4 officers were present during PM to brief him. There was obviously nothing glaringly obvious to contradict the murder/suicide theory. I guess as Dr V was unable to say one way or another he has allowed other aspects of the investigation to prevail. In this case the pathological evidence just adds to the mystery and speculation. I can't see how anything further can be advanced here?
The photos show SC's body was moved between photos: there are two similar ones but in each her hand was slightly different, as was the gun in relation to her head (and in another crime scene photo the gun was leaning against the wall) and also, rather importantly, in one of them someone had pulled her nightie down slightly (probably to preserve her modesty) which straightened out the bloodstain up near her armpit - which makes it look like she was injured whilst sitting up. Did Dr V see BOTH these photos when making his assessment? Modern practice is to examine all the spatter marks in situ. By the time her body reached him EP had made a right mess of it inside a body bag and it had blood all over it, making it far harder for him to commit to an opinion. His opinion is just on where the bullets entered: it is someone else's job to piece that info together with the rest of the crime scene and look at things like the bullet casings to understand where the shot was fired from etc.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 07, 2015, 01:50:29 PM
The photos show SC's body was moved between photos: there are two similar ones but in each her hand was slightly different, as was the gun in relation to her head (and in another crime scene photo the gun was leaning against the wall) and also, rather importantly, in one of them someone had pulled her nightie down slightly (probably to preserve her modesty) which straightened out the bloodstain up near her armpit - which makes it look like she was injured whilst sitting up. Did Dr V see BOTH these photos when making his assessment? Modern practice is to examine all the spatter marks in situ. By the time her body reached him EP had made a right mess of it inside a body bag and it had blood all over it, making it far harder for him to commit to an opinion. His opinion is just on where the bullets entered: it is someone else's job to piece that info together with the rest of the crime scene and look at things like the bullet casings to understand where the shot was fired from etc.
I thought blood staining would fall under the province of a pathologist with the bullet casings the province of ballistics and SoC? They surely overlap though? I think its the norm now to have a multi-disciplinary approach? It seems to me that each expert has done his or her little bit and none of it is worked together to create a bigger picture? I wouldn't mind betting that much of CAL's book will come as a complete revelation to many!
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 07, 2015, 02:04:17 PM
I thought blood staining would fall under the province of a pathologist with the bullet casings the province of ballistics and SoC? They surely overlap though? I think its the norm now to have a multi-disciplinary approach? It seems to me that each expert has done his or her little bit and none of it is worked together to create a bigger picture? I wouldn't mind betting that much of CAL's book will come as a complete revelation to many!
Quite: I don't think it was just EP that was shockingly inept - practically everyone else was as well. I understand that the ballistics department was so inundated with mass-murders in rural England that day it decided it couldn't afford to make a ballistics expert available for this one?!
But most shocking of all, given the ineptitude of everyone else, was JB's legal team for not dismissing some of the evidence out of hand. The moderator, for example: it stands out like a sore thumb that there was risk of cross contamination and the people who found it benefitted from JB going down - that should have been easy to kick into the long grass: they should have thrown it wide open, establish what percentage of the population the blood group applied to, raised the contamination, the fact the police didn't find it, etc. Instead they effectively validate it by coming up with conpletely barking excuses about how it could have got there if Sheila had got up like Lazerus and indulged in a bit of tidying and some ju-ju Magic cleansing ritual, making JB's defence look like a bowl of Frootloops short of breakfast.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 07, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
Quite: I don't think it was just EP that was shockingly inept - practically everyone else was as well. I understand that the ballistics department was so inundated with mass-murders in rural England that day it decided it couldn't afford to make a ballistics expert available for this one?!
But most shocking of all, given the ineptitude of everyone else, was JB's legal team for not dismissing some of the evidence out of hand. The moderator, for example: it stands out like a sore thumb that there was risk of cross contamination and the people who found it benefitted from JB going down - that should have been easy to kick into the long grass: they should have thrown it wide open, establish what percentage of the population the blood group applied to, raised the contamination, the fact the police didn't find it, etc. Instead they effectively validate it by coming up with conpletely barking excuses about how it could have got there if Sheila had got up like Lazerus and indulged in a bit of tidying and some ju-ju Magic cleansing ritual, making JB's defence look like a bowl of Frootloops short of breakfast.
Yes I totally agree especially with regard to JB's defence. I have often wondered if Geoffrey Rivlin QC is on the ASD and the case with it all its complex relationships was just lost on him &%+((£ He left advocacy shortly after the WHF case and took on a full-time role as judge. Is this the norm or did WHF take the wind out of his sails? I keep meaning to read his book 'Understanding The Law'. Apparently it makes an interesting read for the lay person.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 07, 2015, 02:23:58 PM
He's a lawyer: it goes with the territory. I say that as a nit-picking ex-legal secretary ;-)
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on August 20, 2015, 01:09:10 AM
So just reviewing the bullet casings again.
It makes no sense that Jeremy fired loads of shots into Sheila's half of the bed and none into Nevill's. The person he most needed to incapacitate was Nevill. What is more, it is clear the killer was standing either in the doorway or at the foot of the bed with the gun pointed at June, thus leaving themselves exposed to counter attack by Nevill on their left hand side - but instead he got past and ran downstairs. If Nevill had been been in bed, Bamber would have at least alternated who he shot instead of pumping 8 into June and none into Nevill.
So Nevill can't have been in bed?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on August 31, 2015, 10:32:44 PM
It makes no sense that Jeremy fired loads of shots into Sheila's half of the bed and none into Nevill's. The person he most needed to incapacitate was Nevill. What is more, it is clear the killer was standing either in the doorway or at the foot of the bed with the gun pointed at June, thus leaving themselves exposed to counter attack by Nevill on their left hand side - but instead he got past and ran downstairs. If Nevill had been been in bed, Bamber would have at least alternated who he shot instead of pumping 8 into June and none into Nevill.
So Nevill can't have been in bed?
We can never be sure of what actually occurred short of a full reveal by Jeremy Bamber. However, Nevill was most probably shot as he retreated from the bedroom door or as he approached it. Either way he would have been forced to retreat back into the bedroom while the shooter attacked June.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on September 01, 2015, 03:24:14 AM
We can never be sure of what actually occurred short of a full reveal by Jeremy Bamber. However, Nevill was most probably shot as he retreated from the bedroom door or as he approached it. Either way he would have been forced to retreat back into the bedroom while the shooter attacked June.
At least one of the bullets went up inside June's leg: this indicates she was shot whilst her assassin stood at the end of the bed, because if she had been shot from the door the bullet would have passed through her leg not up it. This indicates that the cases ejected right and slightly forwards and that therefore cases further to the right of the door must have resulted from shots fired through to the landing. Therefore Neville cannot have been shot whilst he was in the bedroom, he must have been shot trying to enter it - which means he was awake and in another part of the house, which pours cold water on the idea Bamber entered via a window and wore a wet suit.
Further evidence for how the casings ejected can be seen by looking at the stationery bodies of the children and how the casings fell near them - clearly forwards and slightly right.
Interesting to note that casing no 35 split in 2 but did not kill June, and that June was able to get herself out of bed and to the door - because something similar happened to Sheila yet everyone assumed she would have died instantly.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: John on September 01, 2015, 12:02:24 PM
According to the ballistics report, bullet DRH5 and casing DRH13 were associated with June so had to have been fired from within the bedroom.
Looking at the attachment above, had any shots been directed towards the landing there would have been casings found beside the chair.
The sketch indicates 'Area From Which Shots Could Be Fired', I see no reason to dispute this.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on September 01, 2015, 06:54:47 PM
It makes no sense that Jeremy fired loads of shots into Sheila's half of the bed and none into Nevill's. The person he most needed to incapacitate was Nevill. What is more, it is clear the killer was standing either in the doorway or at the foot of the bed with the gun pointed at June, thus leaving themselves exposed to counter attack by Nevill on their left hand side - but instead he got past and ran downstairs. If Nevill had been been in bed, Bamber would have at least alternated who he shot instead of pumping 8 into June and none into Nevill.
So Nevill can't have been in bed?
The rifle was a semi-auto, so bullets were fired in quick succession - "bang, bang, bang, bang, bang"... five into June's body as she lay in bed, or maybe "bang, bang"... as she lay with her head on the pillow, then "bang, bang, bang"... three more as she struggled to get up. Then "bang, bang, bang, bang"... four shots at Nevill as he was getting up and out of bed to retaliate or escape the onslaught. But as you say, Bamber might have alternated all those nine shots between the two victims.
After the fight in the kitchen, he returned upstairs to finish off June with two more head shots as she lay in the doorway, hence DRH 13 and DRH 14 casings assigned to her ending up on the landing and down the first flight of stairs.
Rapid firing of an Anschutz 525...
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on September 01, 2015, 08:57:57 PM
The rifle was a semi-auto, so bullets were fired in quick succession - "bang, bang, bang, bang, bang"... five into June's body as she lay in bed, or maybe "bang, bang"... as she lay with her head on the pillow, then "bang, bang, bang"... three more as she struggled to get up. Then "bang, bang, bang, bang"... four shots at Nevill as he was getting up and out of bed to retaliate or escape the onslaught. But as you say, Bamber might have alternated all those nine shots between the two victims.
After the fight in the kitchen, he returned upstairs to finish off June with two more head shots as she lay in the doorway, hence DRH 13 and DRH 14 casings assigned to her ending up on the landing and down the first flight of stairs.
Rapid firing of an Anschutz 525...
Yes, if they were both lying in bed I would expect a rational murderer to kick off with shooting Nevill in the head, then June, then Nevill again - but there are no bullet casings in the western half of the room. Which is a bit surprising, given the ones on/in/under the bed are associated with June. Coupled with the fact there is none of Nevil's blood in the room I find it hard to believe he was in it.
We can look at how the casings fell for the Twins, who weren't moving, to see that they tend to fall forwards and slightly right. On that basis I can't see how DRH14 can have been fired from anywhere other than someone advancing along the corridor from the twin's room, or from within the doorway of the box room facing north back to that corridor: neither could be as a result of shooting Sheila.
I'm trying to get my head around there being 14 shots upstairs for June and Nevill on one diagram, and 11 on the other: does anyone know the provenance of these 2 diagrams? The one with sketches of the bodies looks more authentic, but appears to obfuscate matters by counting 2 halves of one casing -DRH7 - twice under the list of "10 Cartridge Cases (to Ralph and June) 'First' Episode", yet not including DRH5, DRH9 or DRH35 in that list, even whilst stating they are clearly associated with June.
The numbers don't add up, and the location of the casings is strange: it seems possible to me there could have been more shots fired but they didn't find all the casings.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on September 01, 2015, 09:15:17 PM
How could he claim Nevill phoned him if both were shot and killed in bed? He needed Nevill out of bed to be able to pretend Nevill made a phone call to him. The phone call was integral to his plan so integral he told Julie in advance about such. The pretend call from Nevill was both his alibi and also a significant part of his effort to frame Sheila.
Saying Nevill called him would not be credible if Nevill had been killed in bed. It still ended up not being credible because he shot Nevill upstairs before he made it downstairs to the kitchen but Jeremy didn't realize they would figure out he was shot upstairs first.
As for what you choose to believe regarding Neivll making the call:
Hearing gunshots would not prompt him to hang the phone up and hang up the phone or just drop the phone and go check it out. He would not take the time to hang the phone up and then take it off the hook so no one can call the house while he goes to check.
In the meantime he would have had no reason to call Jeremy. You ignore that time and again.
1) Why would he leave Sheila alone so she could go threaten June and the boys and why would June stay in bed?
2) If he felt Sheila needed to be disarmed why would he not do it himself? Why would he call Jeremy who would take 15 or more minutes to arrive instead of doing it himself? He was stronger than Jeremy and bigger than Jeremy and of course much stronge rand bigger than Sheila. Why would he want a weaker person who woudl take a while to get there to do it instead of doing it himself? With time of the essence you do it yourself.
3) If he was too scared to disarm her himself without any weapons why wouldn't he grab one of the weapons available in the kitchen to use to confront her with? The kitchen had knives, pokers, guns and other weapons. If extremely worried tyou grab a gun that is the ultimate weapon to use to confront someone with a gun.
4) Jeremy did not get along with Sheila and would have made matters worse not calm her down
5) Jeremy had an answering machine and the phone was on a different floor than his bedroom so Nevill would have gotten an answering machine and had to hope Jeremy would wake up, go to his answering machine, listen to the message and call back.
6) If Jeremy actually received such a call why would he initially do nothing then call Julie? SOmeone actually receiving such a call would phone 999 or rush right over not do nothing and then when finally deciding to do something to call Julie. Worse he lied and insisted he immediately called police though we know for sure he called Julie first. Why did he lie about calling police first? Quite clearly because he knew that gave away the fact he received no such call and Julie's testimony makes that clear.
You also ignore all the evidence that proves Sheial can't have killed anyone and thus there would be no reaosn for Nevill to make a call saying SHeila was running around with a gun.
But as they say ignorance is bliss and since you can make up any nonsense you feel like you don't really care about what the evidence shows...
Just as a post-script: if Nevill phoning Bamber was integral to the plan so Nevill had to be up and about, and people who believe Bamber is guilty reckon he hid the phone downstairs necessitating Nevill to rush down to the kitchen to get to the phone, all Bamber would have needed to do was plug the bedroom phone back in by the bed and put the 'hidden' phone into the kitchen socket after everyone was dead. As he's busy staging Sheila's body with a gun with her fingerprint on it, and he has allegedly been planning this for months, I'd have thought he would have staged Nevill's body with a telephone next to it, off the hook, gripped by his bloodied hand if it was part of his alibi.
This is one of the main problems I have with this: if Bamber cold bloodedly planned this for weeks - and the prosecution does rely on lots of pre-planning with a bicycle, wetsuit, gloves, phones etc - he would unequivocally have shot his father first. He used the gun and was a good shot: he will have known it would not necessarily kill his father, his greatest adversary. And if his alibi hung on his father phoning him, he would have left his father melodramatically clutching a phone.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: puglove on September 01, 2015, 10:38:50 PM
Just as a post-script: if Nevill phoning Bamber was integral to the plan so Nevill had to be up and about, and people who believe Bamber is guilty reckon he hid the phone downstairs necessitating Nevill to rush down to the kitchen to get to the phone, all Bamber would have needed to do was plug the bedroom phone back in by the bed and put the 'hidden' phone into the kitchen socket after everyone was dead. As he's busy staging Sheila's body with a gun with her fingerprint on it, and he has allegedly been planning this for months, I'd have thought he would have staged Nevill's body with a telephone next to it, off the hook, gripped by his bloodied hand if it was part of his alibi.
This is one of the main problems I have with this: if Bamber cold bloodedly planned this for weeks - and the prosecution does rely on lots of pre-planning with a bicycle, wetsuit, gloves, phones etc - he would unequivocally have shot his father first. He used the gun and was a good shot: he will have known it would not necessarily kill his father, his greatest adversary. And if his alibi hung on his father phoning him, he would have left his father melodramatically clutching a phone.
I think that Bamber intended to shoot both Ralph and June in their bed but I wonder if, just as he overestimated the power of the gun, he also underestimated how quickly Ralph would wake and react? Maybe Ralph leapt up (or even rolled and fell out of bed) and tried to rush him before Bamber could get a bead on him?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 01, 2015, 11:03:34 PM
Yes, if they were both lying in bed I would expect a rational murderer to kick off with shooting Nevill in the head, then June, then Nevill again - but there are no bullet casings in the western half of the room. Which is a bit surprising, given the ones on/in/under the bed are associated with June. Coupled with the fact there is none of Nevil's blood in the room I find it hard to believe he was in it.
We can look at how the casings fell for the Twins, who weren't moving, to see that they tend to fall forwards and slightly right. On that basis I can't see how DRH14 can have been fired from anywhere other than someone advancing along the corridor from the twin's room, or from within the doorway of the box room facing north back to that corridor: neither could be as a result of shooting Sheila.
I'm trying to get my head around there being 14 shots upstairs for June and Nevill on one diagram, and 11 on the other: does anyone know the provenance of these 2 diagrams? The one with sketches of the bodies looks more authentic, but appears to obfuscate matters by counting 2 halves of one casing -DRH7 - twice under the list of "10 Cartridge Cases (to Ralph and June) 'First' Episode", yet not including DRH5, DRH9 or DRH35 in that list, even whilst stating they are clearly associated with June.
The numbers don't add up, and the location of the casings is strange: it seems possible to me there could have been more shots fired but they didn't find all the casings.
Have you read DC Hammersley's trial transcript? He goes through the casings.
I think that Bamber intended to shoot both Ralph and June in their bed but I wonder if, just as he overestimated the power of the gun, he also underestimated how quickly Ralph would wake and react? Maybe Ralph leapt up (or even rolled and fell out of bed) and tried to rush him before Bamber could get a bead on him?
Certainly, which is why I find it odd that all the casings are over between June's body and the wardrobe: what's Nevill doing over there? If I was Bamber I wouldn't have cycled over in the dark, climbed through the window and fumbled around in the dark: I'd have said "Good night every body!" whilst they were at the dining table and then snuck upstairs and hid in that little dressing room between Nevill and the boys: then waited until I could hear Nevill snoring before sliding round the door and slugging several shots in his head point-blank. And I'd have made sure the yap dog accidentally ate slug pellets the day before (I can credit my father-in-law with that plot line - twice! 8(8-)) ) so it didn't give the game away. (For that matter the whole idea he could enter the house and the dog wouldn't alert everyone sits ill given the racket it kicked up for hours afterwards)
He would shoot Nevill first. If he could shoot a sleeping child sucking their thumb he'd have had no problem shooting a child running around screaming, and the children didn't have to be anywhere in particular at all for the purposes of the story that Sheila had gone berserk.
So what's Nevill doing over by the wardrobe? If the shooter was over by the door and Nevill had thrown himself over June and then slid between the bed and the wardrobe he would have been shot in the back and right shoulder, so he can't have done that. Shots to left shoulder/arm and upper chest suggest to me the murderer was aiming at a moving target, possibly the head, but Nevill had his left arm up to defend himself: this is the action I would expect him to take if he ran into the room from the landing over to June. At this point the murderer would not be able to exit to the landing because of Nevill approaching, so would have moved back into the room nearer to Nevill's side of the bed: the bed being in between them would account for Nevill not rushing at the assailant, and the chair by the door would be next to Nevill's left hand, hence he would not have been able to grab it as a weapon. If Nevill had been coming round from his side of the bed to the attacker by the doorway, the attacker could have retreated to the landing, or Nevill would have had to say 'excuse me please!' to squeeze round to be between June and the wardrobe and the attacker would have had no problem getting a close headshot - and the chair would have been immediately near Nevill's right hand whilst his left arm was defending his head and he would have had no problem swinging it into the gun and then the life-or-death struggle would have occurred there, not down in the kitchen.
So I really don't think Nevill was in bed, he must have entered the room and retreated. Which messes with the idea he was fast asleep so didn't hear Bamber climb through a window downstairs - which adds weight to the theory it was Sheila.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: puglove on September 01, 2015, 11:18:37 PM
Certainly, which is why I find it odd that all the casings are over between Sheila's body and the wardrobe: what's Nevill doing over there? If I was Bamber I wouldn't have cycled over in the dark, climbed through the window and fumbled around in the dark: I'd have said "Good night every body!" whilst they were at the dining table and then snuck upstairs and hid in that little dressing room between Nevill and the boys: then waited until I could hear Nevill snoring before sliding round the door and slugging several shots in his head point-blank. And I'd have made sure the yap dog accidentally ate slug pellets the day before (I can credit my father-in-law with that plot line - twice! 8(8-)) ) so it didn't give the game away. (For that matter the whole idea he could enter the house and the dog wouldn't alert everyone sits ill given the racket it kicked up for hours afterwards)
He would shoot Nevill first. If he could shoot a sleeping child sucking their thumb he'd have had no problem shooting a child running around screaming, and the children didn't have to be anywhere in particular at all for the purposes of the story that Sheila had gone berserk.
So what's Nevill doing over by the wardrobe? If the shooter was over by the door and Nevill had thrown himself over June and then slid between the bed and the wardrobe he would have been shot in the back and right shoulder, so he can't have done that. Shots to left shoulder/arm and upper chest suggest to me the murderer was aiming at a moving target, possibly the head, but Nevill had his left arm up to defend himself: this is the action I would expect him to take if he ran into the room from the landing over to June. At this point the murderer would not be able to exit to the landing because of Nevill approaching, so would have moved back into the room nearer to Nevill's side of the bed: the bed being in between them would account for Nevill not rushing at the assailant, and the chair by the door would be next to Nevill's left hand, hence he would not have been able to grab it as a weapon. If Nevill had been coming round from his side of the bed to the attacker by the doorway, the attacker could have retreated to the landing, or Nevill would have had to say 'excuse me please!' to squeeze round to be between June and the wardrobe and the attacker would have had no problem getting a close headshot - and the chair would have been immediately near Nevill's right hand whilst his left arm was defending his head and he would have had no problem swinging it into the gun and then the life-or-death struggle would have occurred there, not down in the kitchen.
So I really don't think Nevill was in bed, he must have entered the room and retreated. Which messes with the idea he was fast asleep so didn't hear Bamber climb through a window downstairs - which adds weight to the theory it was Sheila.
Hmm. Interesting points, there. (She said, a bit patronisingly!)
The only thing I can be sure of, here, is that slug pellets wouldn't knock a dog out that quickly. Not even a hedgehog. But seriously, well done you! B+
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on September 01, 2015, 11:28:18 PM
@)(++(* hop over to the Dewani board if you want a masterclass in patronising me ;-) 8(0(*
PS, about the slug pellets: my father in law managed to leave them lying around the farm where the dog was - twice. Regret Fido was vomiting within minutes on both occasions and snuffed it before the vet arrived the second time. The next dog was never allowed out of the house unaccompanied and my father-in-law assumed the proportions of a cartoon baddie: murder was definitely suspected!
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on September 02, 2015, 01:06:06 PM
Hmm. Interesting points, there. (She said, a bit patronisingly!)
The only thing I can be sure of, here, is that slug pellets wouldn't knock a dog out that quickly. Not even a hedgehog. But seriously, well done you! B+
Oops: I accidentally said between Sheila's body and the wardrobe, when I meant June's (ie June's side of the bed) - edited the OP!
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 02, 2015, 01:24:34 PM
Unfortunately we don't a full transcript of the trial but surely there's at the very least a good argument that NB was not in the bedroom when June was shot? The lack of any blood and casings in the areas to be expected if NB was shot his side of the bed or at the foot of the bed suggest he wasn't in the bedroom other than stood at the doorway facing the entrance to the bedroom ie looking in not out while the perp was within the bedroom and looking out towards the hall.
It seems to me the prosecutions case went largely unchallenged at trial. Some will argue its difficult to counter a strong case from the prosecution. Was it strong or was the defence exceptionally poor?
CAL's book P360: "Vanezis was next to be called. 'It was reasonably straightforward really, from my point of view,' he reflects. 'I had a fair cross-examination from Mr Rivlin, who was a very mild-mannered man, although he asked quite searching questions. Who wants to be represented in court by "a very mild-mannered man"? I would want to smell FEAR!
How can we measure GR's competence as a QC? I guess overall the prosecution wins more times than loses as the case would have to look good on paper to get to court in the first place? Then the % wins amongst defending QC's should be similar based on not guilty? If one defending QC is winning more or losing more than average then that might be down to the ability or lack of ability of the individual QC? Does that make sense? &%+((£
The worrying thing is that GR quit advocacy shortly after the WHF trial to take on the role of a full-time judge. I say worrying as maybe he realised himself after WHF that advocacy wasn't his game? Whereas the prosecuting QC Anthony Arlidge is still at it and he's in his late 70's!
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on September 02, 2015, 03:22:11 PM
I think Bamber's own silk thought he was guilty so didn't defend him well, nor challenge enough evidence. I'm sure most people then would have assumed a suicide can't shoot themselves twice - whereas even the pathologist had experience of it. Then everyone went looking for evidence of a murder and found it, so presented with the moderator suddenly the double-shot suicide looks like murder and round and round it goes.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 02, 2015, 04:09:52 PM
I think Bamber's own silk thought he was guilty so didn't defend him well, nor challenge enough evidence. I'm sure most people then would have assumed a suicide can't shoot themselves twice - whereas even the pathologist had experience of it. Then everyone went looking for evidence of a murder and found it, so presented with the moderator suddenly the double-shot suicide looks like murder and round and round it goes.
What you're saying makes a lot of sense but surely these people are trained to give it their best shot whatever their personal views?
“Everybody asks me that,” says this expert cross-examiner, looking sternly over the top of his half-moon glasses. “The answer is that you don’t know if someone’s guilty. You take instructions from your client. You think: 'Oh no, this sounds really unlikely.’ Then you test it and find out that what he says might actually be true. A jury might believe him. So you give it everything you’ve got.”
I've read that GR thought the case against JB was weak and was surprised when the jury reached a guilty verdict!? GR has since apparently put in many unpaid hours supporting JB I assume from a legal perspective.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Passer-by on September 02, 2015, 04:31:28 PM
What you're saying makes a lot of sense but surely these people are trained to give it their best shot whatever their personal views?
“Everybody asks me that,” says this expert cross-examiner, looking sternly over the top of his half-moon glasses. “The answer is that you don’t know if someone’s guilty. You take instructions from your client. You think: 'Oh no, this sounds really unlikely.’ Then you test it and find out that what he says might actually be true. A jury might believe him. So you give it everything you’ve got.”
I've read that GR thought the case against JB was weak and was surprised when the jury reached a guilty verdict!? GR has since apparently put in many unpaid hours supporting JB I assume from a legal perspective.
I think a lot of them were at the start of their careers and still honing their skills. As for the lawyers: they aren't allowed to defend someone who has given them cause to believe they are guilty - and money is money. I think it's to their credit if some of them still work for him for free, but I don't believe his barrister does? I imagine some of them would like not to draw attention to the case now, as it doesn't do them any credit.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 02, 2015, 05:17:58 PM
I think a lot of them were at the start of their careers and still honing their skills. As for the lawyers: they aren't allowed to defend someone who has given them cause to believe they are guilty - and money is money. I think it's to their credit if some of them still work for him for free, but I don't believe his barrister does? I imagine some of them would like not to draw attention to the case now, as it doesn't do them any credit.
Agreed. I see the defence as being more inept than the police/investigation. In fact I am not sure the police could have done much more given the circumstances ie the fact SC and JB both had a legitimate right to be at WHF and handle all the contents?
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 03, 2015, 02:50:08 PM
So it appears the idea that cartridges eject to the right is a myth.
Not so... there's a thin metal deflector plate just behind of the ejection port of an Anschutz 525 which forces the shell forward and to the right, whereas there wasn't any on that handgun in your link. Which is why they flew all over the place; to the side, backwards and forwards. So I think the hatched area in one of the WHF plans showing where the bullets were most likely fired from is a reasonable assumption.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 03, 2015, 04:00:51 PM
Not so... there's a thin metal deflector plate just behind of the ejection port of an Anschutz 525 which forces the shell forward and to the right, whereas there wasn't any on that handgun in your link. Which is why they flew all over the place; to the side, backwards and forwards. So I think the hatched area in one of the WHF plans showing where the bullets were most likely fired from is a reasonable assumption.
Thanks Myster. I see the little deflector plate might force the spent cartridge along a certain path. I havent read the PDF in detail. It might relate to non-comparable firearms. There are some pie charts and scattergrams at the back showing distribution of cartridges using various weapons (I think).
If you're right about the deflector plate, and on the surface it seems you are, that's potentially good as it will assist any SoC reconstruction.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Myster on December 03, 2015, 04:06:18 PM
Thanks Myster. I see the little deflector plate might force the spent cartridge along a certain path. I havent read the PDF in detail. It might relate to non-comparable firearms. There are some pie charts and scattergrams at the back showing distribution of cartridges using various weapons (I think).
If you're right about the deflector plate, and on the surface it seems you are, that's potentially good as it will assist any SoC reconstruction.
I hope not! ?8)@)-)
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: scipio_usmc on December 07, 2015, 01:17:10 AM
Yes, if they were both lying in bed I would expect a rational murderer to kick off with shooting Nevill in the head, then June, then Nevill again - but there are no bullet casings in the western half of the room. Which is a bit surprising, given the ones on/in/under the bed are associated with June. Coupled with the fact there is none of Nevil's blood in the room I find it hard to believe he was in it.
We can look at how the casings fell for the Twins, who weren't moving, to see that they tend to fall forwards and slightly right. On that basis I can't see how DRH14 can have been fired from anywhere other than someone advancing along the corridor from the twin's room, or from within the doorway of the box room facing north back to that corridor: neither could be as a result of shooting Sheila.
I'm trying to get my head around there being 14 shots upstairs for June and Nevill on one diagram, and 11 on the other: does anyone know the provenance of these 2 diagrams? The one with sketches of the bodies looks more authentic, but appears to obfuscate matters by counting 2 halves of one casing -DRH7 - twice under the list of "10 Cartridge Cases (to Ralph and June) 'First' Episode", yet not including DRH5, DRH9 or DRH35 in that list, even whilst stating they are clearly associated with June.
The numbers don't add up, and the location of the casings is strange: it seems possible to me there could have been more shots fired but they didn't find all the casings.
Shooting at Nevill as he was getting out of bed would result in the the shell casings landing on June's side of the bed they are ejected to the right. When she got up she may have knocked some of the casings off the bed. They also could have ricocheted off the bed. Shooting at June caused the shells to be in the corner or towards the door. It all depends on the exact angle of the shooter. It is quite possible based on the shell distribution for Nevill to have been shot seated on his side of the bed or as he was rising fro his side of the bed. Furthermore the bullet that grazed his was found in the bedroom along with the 4 shells associated with the 4 shots he suffered in the bedroom.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: scipio_usmc on December 07, 2015, 01:37:18 AM
Just as a post-script: if Nevill phoning Bamber was integral to the plan so Nevill had to be up and about, and people who believe Bamber is guilty reckon he hid the phone downstairs necessitating Nevill to rush down to the kitchen to get to the phone, all Bamber would have needed to do was plug the bedroom phone back in by the bed and put the 'hidden' phone into the kitchen socket after everyone was dead. As he's busy staging Sheila's body with a gun with her fingerprint on it, and he has allegedly been planning this for months, I'd have thought he would have staged Nevill's body with a telephone next to it, off the hook, gripped by his bloodied hand if it was part of his alibi.
This is one of the main problems I have with this: if Bamber cold bloodedly planned this for weeks - and the prosecution does rely on lots of pre-planning with a bicycle, wetsuit, gloves, phones etc - he would unequivocally have shot his father first. He used the gun and was a good shot: he will have known it would not necessarily kill his father, his greatest adversary. And if his alibi hung on his father phoning him, he would have left his father melodramatically clutching a phone.
Like all Jeremy supporters you simply make up what you choose to believe and say the hell with the facts and evidence. You decided he would shoot his father first no matter what even though that would give away for sure he lied about receiving a call from his father. He told Julie prior to the murders he planned to say he received a distress call. That means it was not some ad hoc thing he actually planned it out.
It doesn't matter if there is a phone in the bedroom or not if Nevill was killed in bed then he couldn't make a distress call to Jeremy. People who died in their sleep don't make distress calls. It would not be credible that his father got back into bed after calling Jeremy would it? He needed to shoot his father as he was sitting on the bed or rising from it in order to stick a phone near him and people to believe his father called.
The 4 shots fired at his father failed to immobilize him. The gun was empty and Jeremy needed more ammo. In all likelihood he ran to the kitchen with Nevill chasing him so that Nevill could try to prevent him from reloading and caught up with him in the kitchen. It seems less likely that Nevill managed to fight his way past him and exited to run to the kitchen to get a shotgun or other weapon.
They had the struggle in the kitchen and Nevill was knocked out hen Jeremy was able to reload and fired 4 more shots killing his father. Why would he stick the bedroom phone back? He took that phone away so that they could not summon help before he killed them. If they heard him entering and summoned help he would be screwed.
Since Nevill made it downstairs he decided to present to take the kitchen phone off the hook and gave the suggestion that Nevill was attacked while he was on the phone with Jeremy thus disconnecting the call and then he fought his killer before being shot dead. DCI Jones fell for this nonsense but the shell casings in the bedroom as well as the bullet that grazed Nevill being found there tell us the attach started in the master bedroom. The killer fired the full magazine into June and Nevill in the bedroom and the gun was empty and the fight happened to try to prevent Jeremy from reloading.
Why do you think the 4 shots int he bedroom was to Nevill's left profile? Either he was sitting on the bed or getting up hence his left profile was facing the shooter. Indeed the trajectory of the shot to his shoulder and face were down trajectories. The only way for that to be the case would be if Nevill was not upright fully when shot in these locations or the killer was standing on a chair or stool which is not at all likely.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: adam on December 07, 2015, 08:25:08 PM
Bamber's aim was to kill everyone in their beds, except Sheila who had to be in thick of the action. But getting her to move to a suitable position would not be hard.
Once everyone was dead, he could just move Neville or even June a little bit, plug the bedroom in and take it off the hook. Then claim the call was made from the main bedroom.
He was seconds away from being successful. Neville waking and moving. Resulting in four horrific but not fatal shots to him.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: scipio_usmc on December 08, 2015, 03:31:21 PM
Bamber's aim was to kill everyone in their beds, except Sheila who had to be in thick of the action. But getting her to move to a suitable position would not be hard.
Once everyone was dead, he could just move Neville or even June a little bit, plug the bedroom in and take it off the hook. Then claim the call was made from the main bedroom.
He was seconds away from being successful. Neville waking and moving. Resulting in four horrific but not fatal shots to him.
Just like they could tell June was shot in bed they would know Nevill had been shot in bed had he been shot in his sleep. Moving bodies doesn't help change things. He planned to say Nevill phoned him and thus didn't try to kill Nevill in his sleep.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: adam on December 08, 2015, 05:38:36 PM
Just like they could tell June was shot in bed they would know Nevill had been shot in bed had he been shot in his sleep. Moving bodies doesn't help change things. He planned to say Nevill phoned him and thus didn't try to kill Nevill in his sleep.
Neville or June only needed to be a few feet from the bed. Bamber could then claim they had been up all night.
What was Bamber's plan with Neville ? He shot him four times around the head area in the main bedroom, so must have been going for the kill.
Having Neville out of bed, injured of not was too risky.
It would have been better to attempt to kill Neville first, then try to control where June fell. But June was shot multiple times with her head on the pillow.
Bamber was going after a double kill.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 11, 2015, 01:49:47 PM
Like all Jeremy supporters you simply make up what you choose to believe and say the hell with the facts and evidence. You decided he would shoot his father first no matter what even though that would give away for sure he lied about receiving a call from his father. He told Julie prior to the murders he planned to say he received a distress call. That means it was not some ad hoc thing he actually planned it out.
It doesn't matter if there is a phone in the bedroom or not if Nevill was killed in bed then he couldn't make a distress call to Jeremy. People who died in their sleep don't make distress calls. It would not be credible that his father got back into bed after calling Jeremy would it? He needed to shoot his father as he was sitting on the bed or rising from it in order to stick a phone near him and people to believe his father called.
The 4 shots fired at his father failed to immobilize him. The gun was empty and Jeremy needed more ammo. In all likelihood he ran to the kitchen with Nevill chasing him so that Nevill could try to prevent him from reloading and caught up with him in the kitchen. It seems less likely that Nevill managed to fight his way past him and exited to run to the kitchen to get a shotgun or other weapon.
They had the struggle in the kitchen and Nevill was knocked out hen Jeremy was able to reload and fired 4 more shots killing his father. Why would he stick the bedroom phone back? He took that phone away so that they could not summon help before he killed them. If they heard him entering and summoned help he would be screwed.
Since Nevill made it downstairs he decided to present to take the kitchen phone off the hook and gave the suggestion that Nevill was attacked while he was on the phone with Jeremy thus disconnecting the call and then he fought his killer before being shot dead. DCI Jones fell for this nonsense but the shell casings in the bedroom as well as the bullet that grazed Nevill being found there tell us the attach started in the master bedroom. The killer fired the full magazine into June and Nevill in the bedroom and the gun was empty and the fight happened to try to prevent Jeremy from reloading.
Why do you think the 4 shots int he bedroom was to Nevill's left profile? Either he was sitting on the bed or getting up hence his left profile was facing the shooter. Indeed the trajectory of the shot to his shoulder and face were down trajectories. The only way for that to be the case would be if Nevill was not upright fully when shot in these locations or the killer was standing on a chair or stool which is not at all likely.
Scipio I believe two casings were found in the landing area?
The trajectory of the facial shots and shot to shoulder were downwards (can't see where the pathologist makes ref to the trajectory of the shot to elbow? I will need to read again carefully). NB was taller than SC and JB but the downward trajectory might be accounted for if the perp was just outside the doorway of the main bedroom and NB below the 2 steps on the landing which immediately precede the doorway to the main bedroom?
A simple response as to why I might be right, wrong or nothing can be determined will suffice thank you.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
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Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 11, 2015, 02:02:03 PM
Scipio I believe two casings were found in the landing area?
The trajectory of the facial shots and shot to shoulder were downwards (can't see where the pathologist makes ref to the trajectory of the shot to elbow? I will need to read again carefully). NB was taller than SC and JB but the downward trajectory might be accounted for if the perp was just outside the doorway of the main bedroom and NB below the 2 steps on the landing which immediately precede the doorway to the main bedroom?
A simple response as to why I might be right, wrong or nothing can be determined will suffice thank you.
Scipio I believe two casings were found in the landing area?
The trajectory of the facial shots and shot to shoulder were downwards (can't see where the pathologist makes ref to the trajectory of the shot to elbow? I will need to read again carefully). NB was taller than SC and JB but the downward trajectory might be accounted for if the perp was just outside the doorway of the main bedroom and NB below the 2 steps on the landing which immediately precede the doorway to the main bedroom?
A simple response as to why I might be right, wrong or nothing can be determined will suffice thank you.
There was 1 casing in the hallway only. It was against the wall. Quite clearly this is the casing that was missing from the kitchen. There is no natural way for it to get there. Someone tracked it upstairs and kicked it off their shoe resulting in it lodging against the wall.
Since Nevill was shot 4 times with the killer facing his left profile this precludes the killer shooting at Nevill's back or shooting Neville while he was facing his killer. The killer was facing his left profile. Quite obviously the killer could not shoot at his left profile in the hallway or on the stairs. Moreover, since the shell exits forward and right it would have shot down the stairs if he was shot while on the stairs or near it.
There were 13 casings in the bedroom- 4 associated with shots to Nevill, 7 associated with shots to June and 2 to Sheila. In addition there were the bullet fragments associated with June's exit wounds and a fragment from the bullet that grazed Nevill.
Title: Re: Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.
Post by: scipio_usmc on December 12, 2015, 08:30:29 AM
Largest fragment from each bullet
Nevill's wounds:
1) PV/8 front of right ear/exit left ear but still in the body 2) PV/9 slightly above wound 1 3) PV/3 top of skull 4) PV/4 top of skull 5) PV/10 (lip) 6) PV/11 (jaw) 7)PV/2 (Shoulder) 8)DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)
Wounds 1-4 were received in the kitchen, wounds 5-8 in the master bedroom. DRH/5 was recovered in the master bedroom.
In the bedroom Nevill was neither facing his killer head on nor had his back to the killer. He had his left profile to the killer.
This arm was in the air when the graze shot occurred. The shot grazed underneath his upper arm then grazed his chest. he bullet went from left to right across his body. The only way for this to happen is his arm to be raised when it is grazed so that the portion hit was adjacent to his chest so that the bullet could continue across his body. The fragment associated with this shot was DRH/5
Shots 6 and 7 were delivered while Nevill was not fully upright. He was either sitting or in the process of rising. We know this because the shots had a downward trajectory. If he was fully upright then in order to hit him in his shoulder and jaw the trajectory would have been up. No one holds a gun above eye level so they can shoot downward. The only possibility other than Nevill not being fully upright would be the killer standing on the chair or something else as he fired which is highly unlikely.
The trajectory of the lip shot is unclear. The chest shot potentially could have been fired while holding the weapon at eye level so it is possible he was upright at that point. The location of DRH/5 suggests it ricocheted off something because there is no natural way for Jeremy to target Nevill and it to land there unless Nevll was standing at the foot of the bed and Jeremy was near the boxroom door. Why would Nevill stand with his left profile facing Jeremy at the foot of the bed instead of running away or running towards him? How would they switch positions anyway so that they would pass one another with Jeremy in the corner and Nevill at the foot? It makes no sense. 22LR ricochets are common. The combination of the shell casing locations, the shots coming to his left profile and the trajectory suggest Nevill was seated on the bed trying to get up as he was being shot. This would help explain why the shots were to his lip and jaw. He was rising so even though Jeremy aimed at his skull by the time the bullets were fired Nevill was higher up and they hit his lower face instead of upper head. And also would explain the graze wound. Hitting moving targets where you want to is a skill. we are taught to predict where a target is moving to and aim for that location. Jeremy is very fortunate that the shot broke Nevill's arm or he would likely have been overpowered by Nevill in the kitchen.
Instead he was able to beat Nevill unconscious then he was able to reload the weapon and fired 4 shots to the head in two batches. He doubletapped the trigger then moved slightly and did it again. 1 and 2 were fired in rapid succession and 3 and 4 in rapid succession. There is no way to know which set was fired first.
June 1) PV/25 between eyes 2) PV/26 above right ear 3) DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow) 4) DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow) 5) PV/24 right upper chest 6) PV/23 lower chest 7) DRH/9 knee (bullet exited into bed)
2,3,4,and 7 were all fired for sure while June was lying in bed. 5 and 6 may have been fired while she was in bed but could have been fired as she was getting out of bed or as soon as she got out of bed. The killer was firing to her right thus standing at the foot of the bed far enough towards Nevill's side to hit her from the right. Based on everything in totality it looks like she made it out of bed when the 2 chest shots were delivered thus the killer had to move further to the left and the casings ended up further towards the door. She walked around the bed then back towards the door and either collapsed or was shoved down. While on the floor the gun was fired between her eyes. The head wound she suffered in bed would not allow her to survive long. It is unlikely she was still alive after the fight in the kitchen. Thus most likely she was already dead at that point and it was simply to make sure she was dead. If the killer had 11 rounds in the weapon at the outset then the killer could have thrown her on the ground and then shot her between the eyes to kill her. But if it was fired after he returned from the kitchen she was in all probability already dead.
Someone tracked a casing from the kitchen to the hallway an it ended up against the wall. Someone must have kicked it off their shoe for it to end up right against the wall. Was it the killer or police? No one knows. some raid team members note seeing the casing but that doesn't preclude another member from depositing it there before they walked the hall.