Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.

[Anna]

"Partially" meaning anything other than lying flat.  It's easy to see from the awkwardness of her head in the photos that her head was slightly elevated by the cabinet.

Could she have wedged the gun on the side of the bed and then under her neck, to enable the reach, with her body tilted to the right. Which side did she have a hand resting on her shoulder....out of the way?

[Passer-by]

Could she have wedged the gun on the side of the bed and then under her neck, to enable the reach, with her body tilted to the right. Which side did she have a hand resting on her shoulder....out of the way?

It's not resting out of the way:  it will have been holding the end of the rifle to her throat, then slipped away.  My theory fits the bloodstains, I've just checked the whole upper-body photo (which I'm not going to repost as this is pretty ghoulish as we approach the actual hour of the anniversary) and her body will only have been very slightly raised at the head end. 

If Nevill can run up and down stairs having been shot in the head, this woman can, undoubtedly, reposition the gun she is still holding and take a second shot.

The casing landed where it should have. 

My theory fits the crime scene:  it doesn't have lots of things which may have been here, there, or somewhere else.

[Holly Goodhead]

What is more, if we go with the obvious - that she

• Was lying down - because that's how she was found
  Had the gun resting partially on its left side on her body - because that's how it was found
  Had the bullet casing land slightly forward to her right
  

It is clear that even if it wasn't cadaveric spasm it could still have been a poor first shot immediately followed by a second successful one right after -  both hands would have been grasping the gun, the left on the barrel, the right on the trigger, so it wouldn't have gone anywhere.

It's not resting out of the way:  it will have been holding the end of the rifle to her throat, then slipped away.  My theory fits the bloodstains, I've just checked the whole upper-body photo (which I'm not going to repost as this is pretty ghoulish as we approach the actual hour of the anniversary) and her body will only have been very slightly raised at the head end. 

If Nevill can run up and down stairs having been shot in the head, this woman can, undoubtedly, reposition the gun she is still holding and take a second shot.

The casing landed where it should have. 

My theory fits the crime scene:  it doesn't have lots of things which may have been here, there, or somewhere else.

I'm not really sure what point you're endeavouring to make Passer-by?  Dr V has always stated he is unable to confirm murder or suicide?  And as far as I'm aware that is still his current position from a pathological perspective.  At the time he said along the lines that he was a little uncomfortable with the two gunshot wounds to SC although he could find nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory and had experienced 3/4 suicides with more than one gunshot wound in the past.  He did not see the victims at the SoC but numerous photos were taken and 4 officers were present during PM to brief him.  There was obviously nothing glaringly obvious to contradict the murder/suicide theory.  I guess as Dr V was unable to say one way or another he has allowed other aspects of the investigation to prevail.  In this case the pathological evidence just adds to the mystery and speculation.  I can't see how anything further can be advanced here?

[Passer-by]

By the bullet casing which projectiles right being on SC's left - it throws a different light on who was holding the gun because it was being held the other way up for suicide than it would be for murder.

[Holly Goodhead]

By the bullet casing which projectiles right being on SC's left - it throws a different light on who was holding the gun because it was being held the other way up for suicide than it would be for murder.

Yes good points.  I thought you were querying the two gunshot wounds. 

[Passer-by]

I'm not really sure what point you're endeavouring to make Passer-by?  Dr V has always stated he is unable to confirm murder or suicide?  And as far as I'm aware that is still his current position from a pathological perspective.  At the time he said along the lines that he was a little uncomfortable with the two gunshot wounds to SC although he could find nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory and had experienced 3/4 suicides with more than one gunshot wound in the past.  He did not see the victims at the SoC but numerous photos were taken and 4 officers were present during PM to brief him.  There was obviously nothing glaringly obvious to contradict the murder/suicide theory.  I guess as Dr V was unable to say one way or another he has allowed other aspects of the investigation to prevail.  In this case the pathological evidence just adds to the mystery and speculation.  I can't see how anything further can be advanced here?

The photos show SC's body was moved between photos:  there are two similar ones but in each her hand was slightly different, as was the gun in relation to her head (and in another crime scene photo the gun was leaning against the wall) and also, rather importantly, in one of them someone had pulled her nightie down slightly (probably to preserve her modesty) which straightened out the bloodstain up near her armpit - which makes it look like she was injured whilst sitting up.  Did Dr V see BOTH these photos when making his assessment?  Modern practice is to examine all the spatter marks in situ.  By the time her body reached him EP had made a right mess of it inside a body bag and it had blood all over it, making it far harder for him to commit to an opinion.  His opinion is just on where the bullets entered:  it is someone else's job to piece that info together with the rest of the crime scene and look at things like the bullet casings to understand where the shot was fired from etc.

[Holly Goodhead]

The photos show SC's body was moved between photos:  there are two similar ones but in each her hand was slightly different, as was the gun in relation to her head (and in another crime scene photo the gun was leaning against the wall) and also, rather importantly, in one of them someone had pulled her nightie down slightly (probably to preserve her modesty) which straightened out the bloodstain up near her armpit - which makes it look like she was injured whilst sitting up.  Did Dr V see BOTH these photos when making his assessment?  Modern practice is to examine all the spatter marks in situ.  By the time her body reached him EP had made a right mess of it inside a body bag and it had blood all over it, making it far harder for him to commit to an opinion.  His opinion is just on where the bullets entered:  it is someone else's job to piece that info together with the rest of the crime scene and look at things like the bullet casings to understand where the shot was fired from etc.

This might help:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6386.msg257609#msg257609

I thought blood staining would fall under the province of a pathologist with the bullet casings the province of ballistics and SoC?  They surely overlap though?  I think its the norm now to have a multi-disciplinary approach?  It seems to me that each expert has done his or her little bit and none of it is worked together to create a bigger picture?  I wouldn't mind betting that much of CAL's book will come as a complete revelation to many! 

[Passer-by]

This might help:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6386.msg257609#msg257609

I thought blood staining would fall under the province of a pathologist with the bullet casings the province of ballistics and SoC?  They surely overlap though?  I think its the norm now to have a multi-disciplinary approach?  It seems to me that each expert has done his or her little bit and none of it is worked together to create a bigger picture?  I wouldn't mind betting that much of CAL's book will come as a complete revelation to many!

Quite:  I don't think it was just EP that was shockingly inept - practically everyone else was as well.  I understand that the ballistics department was so inundated with mass-murders in rural England that day it decided it couldn't afford to make a ballistics expert available for this one?!

But most shocking of all, given the ineptitude of everyone else, was JB's legal team for not dismissing some of the evidence out of hand.  The moderator, for example:  it stands out like a sore thumb that there was risk of cross contamination and the people who found it benefitted from JB going down - that should have been easy to kick into the long grass:  they should have thrown it wide open, establish what percentage of the population the blood group applied to, raised the contamination, the fact the police didn't find it, etc. Instead they effectively validate it by coming up with conpletely barking excuses about how it could have got there if Sheila had got up like Lazerus and indulged in a bit of tidying and some ju-ju Magic cleansing ritual, making JB's defence look like a bowl of Frootloops short of breakfast.

[Holly Goodhead]

Quite:  I don't think it was just EP that was shockingly inept - practically everyone else was as well.  I understand that the ballistics department was so inundated with mass-murders in rural England that day it decided it couldn't afford to make a ballistics expert available for this one?!

But most shocking of all, given the ineptitude of everyone else, was JB's legal team for not dismissing some of the evidence out of hand.  The moderator, for example:  it stands out like a sore thumb that there was risk of cross contamination and the people who found it benefitted from JB going down - that should have been easy to kick into the long grass:  they should have thrown it wide open, establish what percentage of the population the blood group applied to, raised the contamination, the fact the police didn't find it, etc. Instead they effectively validate it by coming up with conpletely barking excuses about how it could have got there if Sheila had got up like Lazerus and indulged in a bit of tidying and some ju-ju Magic cleansing ritual, making JB's defence look like a bowl of Frootloops short of breakfast.

Yes I totally agree especially with regard to JB's defence.  I have often wondered if Geoffrey Rivlin QC is on the ASD and the case with it all its complex relationships was just lost on him  &%+((£  He left advocacy shortly after the WHF case and took on a full-time role as judge.  Is this the norm or did WHF take the wind out of his sails?  I keep meaning to read his book 'Understanding The Law'.  Apparently it makes an interesting read for the lay person. 

[Passer-by]

He's a lawyer:  it goes with the territory.  I say that as a nit-picking ex-legal secretary ;-)

[Passer-by]

So just reviewing the bullet casings again.

It makes no sense that Jeremy fired loads of shots into Sheila's half of the bed and none into Nevill's.  The person he most needed to incapacitate was Nevill.  What is more, it is clear the killer was standing either in the doorway or at the foot of the bed with the gun pointed at June, thus leaving themselves exposed to counter attack by Nevill on their left hand side - but instead he got past and ran downstairs.  If Nevill had been been in bed,  Bamber would have at least alternated who he shot instead of pumping 8 into June and none into Nevill.

So Nevill can't have been in bed?

[John]

So just reviewing the bullet casings again.

It makes no sense that Jeremy fired loads of shots into Sheila's half of the bed and none into Nevill's.  The person he most needed to incapacitate was Nevill.  What is more, it is clear the killer was standing either in the doorway or at the foot of the bed with the gun pointed at June, thus leaving themselves exposed to counter attack by Nevill on their left hand side - but instead he got past and ran downstairs.  If Nevill had been been in bed,  Bamber would have at least alternated who he shot instead of pumping 8 into June and none into Nevill.

So Nevill can't have been in bed?

We can never be sure of what actually occurred short of a full reveal by Jeremy Bamber.  However, Nevill was most probably shot as he retreated from the bedroom door or as he approached it.  Either way he would have been forced to retreat back into the bedroom while the shooter attacked June.

[Passer-by]

We can never be sure of what actually occurred short of a full reveal by Jeremy Bamber.  However, Nevill was most probably shot as he retreated from the bedroom door or as he approached it.  Either way he would have been forced to retreat back into the bedroom while the shooter attacked June.

At least one of the bullets went up inside June's leg:  this indicates she was shot whilst her assassin stood at the end of the bed, because if she had been shot from the door the bullet would have passed through her leg not up it.  This indicates that the cases ejected right and slightly forwards and that therefore cases further to the right of the door must have resulted from shots fired through to the landing.  Therefore Neville cannot have been shot whilst he was in the bedroom, he must have been shot trying to enter it - which means he was awake and in another part of the house, which pours cold water on the idea Bamber entered via a window and wore a wet suit.

Further evidence for how the casings ejected can be seen by looking at the stationery bodies of the children and how the casings fell near them - clearly forwards and slightly right.

Interesting to note that casing no 35 split in 2 but did not kill June, and that June was able to get herself out of bed and to the door - because something similar happened to Sheila yet everyone assumed she would have died instantly.

[John]

According to the ballistics report, bullet DRH5 and casing DRH13 were associated with June so had to have been fired from within the bedroom.

Looking at the attachment above, had any shots been directed towards the landing there would have been casings found beside the chair.

The sketch indicates 'Area From Which Shots Could Be Fired', I see no reason to dispute this.

[Myster]

So just reviewing the bullet casings again.

It makes no sense that Jeremy fired loads of shots into Sheila's half of the bed and none into Nevill's.  The person he most needed to incapacitate was Nevill.  What is more, it is clear the killer was standing either in the doorway or at the foot of the bed with the gun pointed at June, thus leaving themselves exposed to counter attack by Nevill on their left hand side - but instead he got past and ran downstairs.  If Nevill had been been in bed,  Bamber would have at least alternated who he shot instead of pumping 8 into June and none into Nevill.

So Nevill can't have been in bed?

The rifle was a semi-auto, so bullets were fired in quick succession - "bang, bang, bang, bang, bang"... five into June's body as she lay in bed, or maybe "bang, bang"... as she lay with her head on the pillow, then "bang, bang, bang"... three more as she struggled to get up. Then "bang, bang, bang, bang"... four shots at Nevill as he was getting up and out of bed to retaliate or escape the onslaught. But as you say, Bamber might have alternated all those nine shots between the two victims.

After the fight in the kitchen, he returned upstairs to finish off June with two more head shots as she lay in the doorway, hence DRH 13 and DRH 14 casings assigned to her ending up on the landing and down the first flight of stairs.

Rapid firing of an Anschutz 525...