UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: carlymichelle on November 18, 2014, 07:51:30 AM
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in most forums the real no changing their mind mcann supporters seem to be in their 60s or 70s the world was a diffrent place when they were growing up/being a parent then now it makes me wonder my generation ( 30s) are alot more protective of their children and would never dream of leaving their children alone to go out to dinner yet it seems older generations did do it and compare that time to nowdays
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This is a point worth discussing, Carly. Although I think you will find that a large percentage of McCann Sceptics are also in their 60s and 70s.
Not that I expect anyone to admit this.
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Its only us oldies that have time on our hands to waste on here. Younger people mostly have lives to get on with. ?{)(**
Perhaps you could organise a poll of age distribution.
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Its only us oldies that have time on our hands to waste on here. Younger people mostly have lives to get on with. ?{)(**
Perhaps you could organise a poll of age distribution.
Agreed about why a lot of us are here. But did the era affect the attitude of some of us to child care. I am pretty sure it affected mine.
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what i mean in my OP is my parents are in theit late 50s/early 60s and their childhood sounds way diffrent then any of mine and my siblings the teens now and in their 20s are being too shelted IMO but there is a huge diffrence in teen being left home alone and 3 toddlers under 4 most of my generation now are parents ( im not) but they all agree that they would never leave their young children ( toddlers) alone
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remember in older generations there wasnt the technology we have now parents have to be alert more then ever with the internet etc where as when i was in high school year 11/12 the internet was in its infancy
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My children roamed almost wild, as I had done when I was a child. And I was taught how to deal with the odd dirty old man, as were my children.
But there simply didn't appear to be the same dangers that there are now. Although I could be wrong about that. Maybe we just didn't hear about them.
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in most forums the real no changing their mind mcann supporters seem to be in their 60s or 70s the world was a diffrent place when they were growing up/being a parent then now it makes me wonder my generation ( 30s) are alot more protective of their children and would never dream of leaving their children alone to go out to dinner yet it seems older generations did do it and compare that time to nowdays
Some supporters say they did and that many thousands of us did, too.............but perhaps it is motivated by the need to defend the actions of the parents by placing them in a group in order to sanitise their behaviour, rather than single them out.
Supporters seem to generalise, shift goalposts or bring in examples which never quite replicate Madeleine`s situation....(or the situation in which she found herself!)
I`ve yet to read an example of anyone leaving toddlers under 5 in an unlocked ground floor apartment ultimately open to a public street and popping back every half hour to check without actually looking to see that the child is still in her bed......
(Anybody admit to doing that?)
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Although there have always been heinous crimes àgainst children I think present attitudes have been formed against the background of the actions of Hindley and Brady.
Parents became aware of the evil of which the 'ordinary' people next door might be capable ... and the freedoms enjoyed by previous generations of children were curtailed ... the adventures children copied and enjoyed ... Swallows and Amazons and Five go to Kirrin Island became too dangerous for the peace of mind of their parents.
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My children roamed almost wild, as I had done when I was a child. And I was taught how to deal with the odd dirty old man, as were my children.
But there simply didn't appear to be the same dangers that there are now. Although I could be wrong about that. Maybe we just didn't hear about them.
I think you are right about that - child fiddling always went on, but the media did not have the same obsessive appetite for reporting it and so parents were more relaxed about giving their children some freedom, but I don't believe that that extended to leaving children under 5 unattended for any length of time.
However, times change and no doubt everyone would be horrified if a mother left her baby outside in a pram, as happened regularly when I was a child.
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I think you are right about that - child fiddling always went on, but the media did not have the same obsessive appetite for reporting it and so parents were more relaxed about giving their children some freedom, but I don't believe that that extended to leaving children under 5 unattended for any length of time.
However, times change and no doubt everyone would be horrified if a mother left her baby outside in a pram, as happened regularly when I was a child.
Gosh. I frequently left my babies in the garden in a pram. Everybody did. Fresh air that the baby wasn't going to get indoors.
And as I have already said, I did leave them asleep in bed for short periods, and I certainly wasn't alone in that. We did pay attention to possible hazards, and made sure that there weren't any. Abductors never came into the realms of my thinking.
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In reality, abduction and child murder was probably as rare 50 years ago as it is now - we just hear about it a lot more these days.
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Although there have always been heinous crimes àgainst children I think present attitudes have been formed against the background of the actions of Hindley and Brady.
Parents became aware of the evil of which the 'ordinary' people next door might be capable ... and the freedoms enjoyed by previous generations of children were curtailed ... the adventures children copied and enjoyed ... Swallows and Amazons and Five go to Kirrin Island became too dangerous for the peace of mind of their parents.
I was out of the Country when Hindley and Brady were caught, so I never got the full force of that.
Mine were off for most of the day catching tadpoles, or whatever else interested them.
I used to collect Jam Jars because you got paid for those.
No way did any of mine let their own children have so much fun. They wouldn't even let me buy my grandchildren Air Rifles, although all three of mine had one of those.
I just made sure that they learned to shoot straight, at a target. Of course. That was one piece of parental supervision that I did enjoy
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In reality, abduction and child murder was probably as rare 50 years ago as it is now - we just hear about it a lot more these days.
This is almost certainly true. But what price perpetually confining children? Is this such a good thing?
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In reality, abduction and child murder was probably as rare 50 years ago as it is now - we just hear about it a lot more these days.
thats what i mean jassi social media ( should have) made todays parents more alert nowdays of the dangerr of leaving young children alone and the mcanns are smart ) being doctors) why did they not think their children were in danger) they would have been internet and social media savy no matter where maddie is or what did happen there are no excuses that the mcanns can make to justify their actions that holiday and IMO people shouldnt justify it either it is 2014 not the 1950s or the 1960s and this was in 2007
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thats what i mean jassi social media ( should have) made todays parents more alert nowdays of the dangerr of leaving young children alone and the mcanns are smart ) being doctors) why did they not think their children were in danger) they would have been internet and social media savy no matter where maddie is or what did happen there are no excuses that the mcanns can make to justify their actions that holiday and IMO people shouldnt justify it either it is 2014 not the 1950s or the 1960s and this was in 2007
How were Social Media suppose to alert The McCanns to possible dangers in a sleepy Portuguese Fishing Village? Dangers that rarely occur.
And incidentally were not mentioned by The Ocean Club or The PJ.
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Some supporters say they did and that many thousands of us did, too.............but perhaps it is motivated by the need to defend the actions of the parents by placing them in a group in order to sanitise their behaviour, rather than single them out.
Supporters seem to generalise, shift goalposts or bring in examples which never quite replicate Madeleine`s situation....(or the situation in which she found herself!)
I`ve yet to read an example of anyone leaving toddlers under 5 in an unlocked ground floor apartment ultimately open to a public street and popping back every half hour to check without actually looking to see that the child is still in her bed......
(Anybody admit to doing that?)
I agree.
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in most forums the real no changing their mind mcann supporters seem to be in their 60s or 70s the world was a diffrent place when they were growing up/being a parent then now it makes me wonder my generation ( 30s) are alot more protective of their children and would never dream of leaving their children alone to go out to dinner yet it seems older generations did do it and compare that time to nowdays
I am 63. My mum is 91. Neither of us support the McCanns in leaving their children.
I personally dont know ANYONE who would leave or has left their children for 30 minutes on their own in an apartment whilst they went out to eat and drink....
No one, i dont quite know where people get this image from.
Was it Butlins? Where people went to a gated secure community and had door listeners who would check on the children regularly? Maybe so, but we never went to Butlins.
My child hood was with my family, we simply NEVER went anywhere without my mum and dad, thats the first thing, we were a family and did everything together.
When my children were young, I always had a baby sitter if we went out in the evening, we would never have left our children on their own not for a minute. You just didnt do it......
I just dont get where it comes from? The McCanns are middle aged and perhaps its more middle age people who do this, but certainly not in my day nor in my mothers. Our families were precious. We would never have gone on holiday with the children and left them in an apartment simple, and when i took my children on holiday we all went out in the evening together for our meal or stayed in self catering.
Thats all i have to say on the matter. I just think its abhorrent anyone could leave children in an apartment on their own whilst they went out to eat and drink...........
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I am 63. My mum is 91. Neither of us support the McCanns in leaving their children.
I personally dont know ANYONE who would leave or has left their children for 30 minutes on their own in an apartment whilst they went out to eat and drink....
No one, i dont quite know where people get this image from.
Was it Butlins? Where people went to a gated secure community and had door listeners who would check on the children regularly? Maybe so, but we never went to Butlins.
My child hood was with my family, we simply NEVER went anywhere without my mum and dad, thats the first thing, we were a family and did everything together.
When my children were young, I always had a baby sitter if we went out in the evening, we would never have left our children on their own not for a minute. You just didnt do it......
I just dont get where it comes from? The McCanns are middle aged and perhaps its more middle age people who do this, but certainly not in my day nor in my mothers. Our families were precious. We would never have gone on holiday with the children and left them in an apartment simple, and when i took my children on holiday we all went out in the evening together for our meal or stayed in self catering.
Thats all i have to say on the matter. I just think its abhorrent anyone could leave children in an apartment on their own whilst they went out to eat and drink...........
exactly so who do mcann supporters excuse the mcanns actions and say everybody did it/does it when clearly they dont??
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exactly so who do mcann supporters excuse the mcanns actions and say everybody did it/does it when clearly they dont??
Clearly, some of us did, Carly. Including your own parents.
Sadly, I thought that you had come up with a good Topic point that was worth discussing. Clearly, I was wrong. You have now taken your own Topic Off Topic.
Could we now get back to discussing the attitudes to child care of an older generation?
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in most forums the real no changing their mind mcann supporters seem to be in their 60s or 70s the world was a diffrent place when they were growing up/being a parent then now it makes me wonder my generation ( 30s) are alot more protective of their children and would never dream of leaving their children alone to go out to dinner yet it seems older generations did do it and compare that time to nowdays
I understood that the op related particularly to leaving children alone to go out to dinner............not to air rifles, tadpole fishing and prams in the garden.
It was taken off topic but not by Carlymichelle.
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I understood that the op related particularly to leaving children alone to go out to dinner............not to air rifles, tadpole fishing and prams in the garden.
It was taken off topic but not by Carlymichelle.
My posts were about attitudes. Not about yet more McCann bashing. The OP was about attitudes. It could have been good.
Read the OP.
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I understood that the op related particularly to leaving children alone to go out to dinner............not to air rifles, tadpole fishing and prams in the garden.
It was taken off topic but not by Carlymichelle.
A bit of a narrow topic in that case.
It could be more interesting to widen it and to examine generational difference in attitude to childcare
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I have left children in a locked apartment 25 years ago but would not do it now. remember mark warner were still advertising their baby listening service AFTER Maddie was abducted so it proves parents were leaving children
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A bit of a narrow topic in that case.
It could be more interesting to widen it and to examine generational difference in attitude to childcare
Thank you, Jassi. That's what I thought it was about. And could be interesting because I have thought about it.
What I did in the 1960s is not necessarily what I would do now.
They often tell me what they got up to when I gave them so much freedom. Shock, Horror. This could be why they were so boring with their own children.
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Thank you, Jassi. That's what I thought it was about. And could be interesting because I have thought about it.
What I did in the 1960s is not necessarily what I would do now.
They often tell me what they got up to when I gave them so much freedom. Shock, Horror. This could be why they were so boring with their own children.
social media the internet and 24/7 television has changed the world even when i was a child there wasnt 24 hour news or 24 hour tv like now
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I have left children in a locked apartment 25 years ago but would not do it now. remember mark warner were still advertising their baby listening service AFTER Maddie was abducted so it proves parents were leaving children
I know we have no way of knowing, but I wonder just how many people at MW left their children alone and unattended in the evening while they went out. Obviously the McCann group did, but did any other family do the same that week
Not many, I would imagine.
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I have left children in a locked apartment 25 years ago but would not do it now. remember mark warner were still advertising their baby listening service AFTER Maddie was abducted so it proves parents were leaving children
Nowadays parents also use 'state of the art' baby alarms on holiday when they go out. Not a good idea IMO - as surely the very fact that you have a baby alarm on your table is also advertising the fact that your child is sleeping alone elsewhere in the hotel.
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social media the internet and 24/7 television has changed the world even when i was a child there wasnt 24 hour news or 24 hour tv like now
So this has changed perceptions somewhat. Although not necessarily for the better. But I doubt that anyone posting here would now do what we did then.
It is another time. That was the point of The OP, as I saw it. Tadpoles and all. Who never had fun collecting tadpoles and watching them leaping about all over the bathroom floor?
And No, I never flushed them down the lavatory. I made the little horrors take them back. More danger, no doubt.
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I'm sure they could design them so that they look like a mobile phone. ?{)(**
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So this has changed perceptions somewhat. Although not necessarily for the better. But I doubt that anyone posting here would now do what we did then.
It is another time. That was the point of The OP, as I saw it. Tadpoles and all. Who never had fun collecting tadpoles and watching them leaping about all over the bathroom floor?
And No, I never flushed them down the lavatory. I made the little horrors take them back. More danger, no doubt.
Presumably they would be a bit older than pre-school, though.
I remember when I was about 8, I would regularly take a penny bus ride ( about 4 mile) over to Walney Island with a few friends and swim in the Irish Sea, not an adult in sight, let alone attendance. Mind you, this was back in the 50's.
Don't think it would happen these days.
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I know we have no way of knowing, but I wonder just how many people at MW left their children alone and unattended in the evening while they went out. Obviously the McCann group did, but did any other family do the same that week
Not many, I would imagine.
We don't know, but what we do know (via Charlotte Pennington) is that Madeleine was not the first child to go missing on that complex - and - (whatever the circumstances) - to be gone long enough for MW to have to activate their Search Procedures.
Thankfully those children were found.
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here in australia in the 1960s 3 children vanished and were never found again the beaumount children they were allowed to go on a bus to the beach aged 4 6 and 9 australia from what i have been told was way diffrent back then but as that case proved even then it proved to be a tragic mistake by those parents the parents are still alive and have always tried to find out what really did happen to them
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We don't know, but what we do know (via Charlotte Pennington) is that Madeleine was not the first child to go missing on that complex - and - (whatever the circumstances) - to be gone long enough for MW to have to activate their Search Procedures.
Thankfully those children were found.
Presumably nothing to indicate that this was other than a simply case of wandering off/getting lost.
It has not been reported that other children had been abducted from the site, so it unlikely that they were.
As Pennington had only been there 5 minutes (figuratively) how would she know?
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My posts were about attitudes. Not about yet more McCann bashing. The OP was about attitudes. It could have been good.
Read the OP.
Fair enough..........You are right regarding the op.
Sorry.
I felt it was unfair to pick someone up for perceived "McCann bashing" when the subject relates directly to "parenting attitudes" which in part led to the situation Madeleine found herself in alone in that unlocked apartment at night.
I felt that the "generation gap" aspect of the topic was manipulated, with the ultimate aim of linking the behaviour of other parents with that of the McCanns in order to make so called "critics" feel unfair for singling them out.
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Presumably they would be a bit older than pre-school, though.
I remember when I was about 8, I would regularly take a penny bus ride ( about 4 mile) over to Walney Island with a few friends and swim in the Irish Sea, not an adult in sight, let alone attendance. Mind you, this was back in the 50's.
Don't think it would happen these days.
I did leave them unattended for brief periods when they were babies, asleep in bed.
And then I went to Singapore where my four year old son often bogged off down to the Kampong alone. But the Chinese would never have allowed any harm to come to any child. And I had zilch control over him anyway. Brave little horror story he was.
Back in UK they were just used to going off on their own.
Happy memories for some of us, it seems. I once fell off a rope swing over The River Brent, and not an adult in sight. And I pulled my baby brother out of The Feeder before he drowned. It was life as we knew it.
Sadly, it isn't like that now. The disappearance of Madeleine changed all that.
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Fair enough..........You are right regarding the op.
Sorry.
I felt it was unfair to pick someone up for perceived "McCann bashing" when the subject relates directly to "parenting attitudes" which in part led to the situation Madeleine found herself in alone in that unlocked apartment at night.
I felt that the "generation gap" aspect of the topic was manipulated, with the ultimate aim of linking the behaviour of other parents with that of the McCanns in order to make so called "critics" feel unfair for singling them out.
Carly chose The Topic Title. And I thought it was good.
But thanks for the apology, although there was no need.
There is a difference in attitude. Not always to be mocked, no matter who. I never mind opinions.
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in most forums the real no changing their mind mcann supporters seem to be in their 60s or 70s the world was a diffrent place when they were growing up/being a parent then now it makes me wonder my generation ( 30s) are alot more protective of their children and would never dream of leaving their children alone to go out to dinner yet it seems older generations did do it and compare that time to nowdays
The world has changed a lot in the last few decades Carly. Neighbours once knew each other and had time for each other but not now.
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I did leave them unattended for brief periods when they were babies, asleep in bed.
And then I went to Singapore where my four year old son often bogged off down to the Kampong alone. But the Chinese would never have allowed any harm to come to any child. And I had zilch control over him anyway. Brave little horror story he was.
Back in UK they were just used to going off on their own.
Happy memories for some of us, it seems. I once fell off a rope swing over The River Brent, and not an adult in sight. And I pulled my baby brother out of The Feeder before he drowned. It was life as we knew it.
Sadly, it isn't like that now. The disappearance of Madeleine changed all that.
Ah yes, happy days, when child abuse was an activity where the whole family could join in @)(++(*
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I once lived in a little cottage on the edge of a Sussex village and could leave our doors open all the time but I can't see them doing that any more. Times change and unfortunately for the worse.
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Common sense should indicate that leaving children of that age unattended, while you are off the premises, socialising with friends is not a good idea - full stop.
I totally agree, if they were intent upon keeping the children in the apartment in the evening and didn't want a stranger to babysit them they should have taken it in turns to socialise. Parenting brings with it a huge responsibility and a duty of care. Unfortunately, some parents on holiday leave their brains behind at check-in when they go abroad.
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Ah yes, happy days, when child abuse was an activity where the whole family could join in @)(++(*
Trust you to spoil it. I shall leave your post to stand.
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I totally agree, if they were intent upon keeping the children in the apartment in the evening and didn't want a stranger to babysit them they should have taken it in turns to socialise. Parenting brings with it a huge responsibility and a duty of care. Unfortunately, some parents on holiday leave their brains behind at check-in when they go abroad.
So no deliberate intent.
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So no deliberate intent.
How can you say that?
No one forced them to act as they did and it was obviously a deliberate act to leave them alone, particularly in light of the crying incident on an earlier night.
I'll accept that the outcome was not intended.
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How can you say that?
No one forced them to act as they did and it was obviously a deliberate act to leave them alone, particularly in light of the crying incident on an earlier night.
I'll accept that the outcome was not intended.
Thank You.
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Getting back on topic I don't see any generation gap as many of the posters on both sides are of a similar age
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Getting back on topic I don't see any generation gap as many of the posters on both sides are of a similar age
Probably you are right, but ten or fifteen years can make a difference in attitude. And I suspect that I go back a bit longer than most.
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in most forums the real no changing their mind mcann supporters seem to be in their 60s or 70s the world was a diffrent place when they were growing up/being a parent then now it makes me wonder my generation ( 30s) are alot more protective of their children and would never dream of leaving their children alone to go out to dinner yet it seems older generations did do it and compare that time to nowdays
I am one of the older bunch and do not accept that kids were left on their own as a matter of routine in the 50s onward to the 80s, as some might like to suggest. Leaving kids on their own is a risky thing to do at anytime and the guideline as I recall even back in the 50s was 12 and younger should have adult attendance in the home. The risk of abduction or indecent assault has not increased but the perception has increased due to media exposure. Back in my younger day we were all too well aware of who had a "funny uncle" and had the golden rules of "never turn your back on a cubmaster/choirmaster/ football coach/watch out for games mistresses at girls schools and girl guide leaders" [delete as appropriate].
What has changed is the degree of "interference" by the state and the attitude toward basic standards.
"I behaved like a prat and someone suffered but I didn't break the law so it's OK"; "OK so the kid wound up dead but my department always achieved its targets so up yours" and so on ad nauseam.
Put your own interpretation on it.
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I did leave them unattended for brief periods when they were babies, asleep in bed.
And then I went to Singapore where my four year old son often bogged off down to the Kampong alone. But the Chinese would never have allowed any harm to come to any child. And I had zilch control over him anyway. Brave little horror story he was.
Back in UK they were just used to going off on their own.
Happy memories for some of us, it seems. I once fell off a rope swing over The River Brent, and not an adult in sight. And I pulled my baby brother out of The Feeder before he drowned. It was life as we knew it.
Sadly, it isn't like that now. The disappearance of Madeleine changed all that.
Tell me Eleanor was it as much a surprise to you as it is to me that your children actually survived to adulthood ?
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How can you say that?
No one forced them to act as they did and it was obviously a deliberate act to leave them alone, particularly in light of the crying incident on an earlier night.
I'll accept that the outcome was not intended.
On the face of it, the title of the thread gave the opportunity for a little 'out of the box' thinking and discussion ... but that was perhaps expecting the impossible ... it is obviously just another opportunity to slag off Madeline's parents for some.
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Why should one pass up an opportunity to state the obvious ? ?{)(**
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I am one of the older bunch and do not accept that kids were left on their own as a matter of routine in the 50s onward to the 80s, as some might like to suggest. Leaving kids on their own is a risky thing to do at anytime and the guideline as I recall even back in the 50s was 12 and younger should have adult attendance in the home. The risk of abduction or indecent assault has not increased but the perception has increased due to media exposure. Back in my younger day we were all too well aware of who had a "funny uncle" and had the golden rules of "never turn your back on a cubmaster/choirmaster/ football coach/watch out for games mistresses at girls schools and girl guide leaders" [delete as appropriate].
What has changed is the degree of "interference" by the state and the attitude toward basic standards.
"I behaved like a prat and someone suffered but I didn't break the law so it's OK"; "OK so the kid wound up dead but my department always achieved its targets so up yours" and so on ad nauseam.
Put your own interpretation on it.
Good heavens. I was a Cub Mistress, and nothing funny went on in my pack. Except my mother thought The Cub Master was after me. He wasn't, but that's how racy it got. Poor man. He was just doing his bit.
Not me, I hasten to add.
Jeezuz. You don't half have to be careful about what you say.
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Good heavens. I was a Cub Mistress, and nothing funny went on in my pack. Except my mother thought The Cub Master was after me. He wasn't, but that's how racy it got. Poor man. He was just doing his bit.
Not me, I hasten to add.
Jeezuz. You don't half have to be careful about what you say.
No doubt he just wanted you to admire his woggle.
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Tell me Eleanor was it as much a surprise to you as it is to me that your children actually survived to adulthood ?
Oh, absolutely. I would go so far as to say it was a miracle. But tough little toads they all were. Like their mother.
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Presumably they would be a bit older than pre-school, though.
I remember when I was about 8, I would regularly take a penny bus ride ( about 4 mile) over to Walney Island with a few friends and swim in the Irish Sea, not an adult in sight, let alone attendance. Mind you, this was back in the 50's.
Don't think it would happen these days.
Blimey you're. quite old. I honestly imagined from you're previous posts that you were in your early 20s.
Did your freedom as a child adversely affect you do you think? Would you call for the parents of children allowed this sort of freedom today to be prosecuted?
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No doubt he just wanted you to admire his woggle.
I had my own woggle. Thank you very much. Dib dib dib. But watch out for the dob.
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Are you one of them dave ?
and tell me how many doctors leave their children unattended ?
Did you ?
I've said on many occasions ......in the past I have...but wouldn't do it now...too many strange people about
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Blimey you're. quite old. I honestly imagined from you're previous posts that you were in your early 20s.
Did your freedom as a child adversely affect you do you think? Would you call for the parents of children allowed this sort of freedom today to be prosecuted?
I'm positively ancient ?{)(**
In those days one took such freedom for granted, so we didn't think of it as anything special. I suppose it made me a fairly resiliant person.
I think that once children get to school age they deserve more freedom than they probably receive, but there is a world of difference between, say, a ten year old and one under five.
Perhaps leaving children under ten alone at home should be against the law.
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I wonder what effect on the death or serious injury rate for under 10s there would be if such a law was implemented. Before such laws are implemented there really should be a study done on just how big a problem this is. Judging from the huge antipathy voiced on the net regarding the McCanns decision to leave their kids alone one would assume that it was pretty much only them and their friends who thought it was OK to do it...
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I don't suppose there are that many, but there aren't many child murders or child abductions either, but people get very worked up about it.
Whenever you enact any law, there are arbitrary cut off points, perhaps it should be lower than ten, but certainly not higher, IMO.
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I don't suppose there are that many, but there aren't many child murders or child abductions either, but people get very worked up about it.
Whenever you enact any law, there are arbitrary cut off points, perhaps it should be lower than ten, but certainly not higher, IMO.
I would agree with that. My parents left me aged 10 in charge of a 9 month baby - for several hours in a holiday apartment. Even now I shudder to think what might have happened and I know my mother feels terrible guilt about it now, in light of the McCann abduction. The thing is, they were not bad parents, they were loving and kind and I had a great childhood, but on occasion they were highly irresponsible. I wouldn't call it neglect, just thoughtlessness mixed with a dollop of selfishness, and a smidge of recklessness too.
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Must be a generational thing @)(++(*
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Must be a generational thing @)(++(*
Well, that's On Topic. Good.
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Don't think it has anything to do with opinion as to which side I am on....those who have been to a proper university for example are going to be on the plus side
My sisters reckoned being sent down from Oxbridge was better than a degree from a Redbrick.
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My sisters reckoned being sent down from Oxbridge was better than a degree from a Redbrick.
even people who didnt go to university know it was not acceptible to leave 3 toddlers alone
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Re: is there a generation gap with mcann supporters?
Is there a generation gap with the McCann bashers ?
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Re: is there a generation gap with mcann supporters?
Is there a generation gap with the McCann bashers ?
not at all todays generation know better then to leave 3 toddlers alone admit it did you leave your kids alone?
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not at all todays generation know better then to leave 3 toddlers alone admit it did you leave your kids alone?
no carly I have never left my children alone ever..never even crossed my mind...
what makes you ask if there is a generation gap with McCann supporters ?
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whilst bashing the McCann's ...don't you have anything to talk about other than the McCann's left their children .....?
It does seem pretty fundamental to the case, don't you think ?
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It does seem pretty fundamental to the case, don't you think ?
Is it "only asking questions" though? It's the one fact both sides of the discussion acknowledge and agree on, so any continued focus on the McCanns' so-called neglect is simply for the purpose of McCann-bashing. Is there any point in the next, say, twenty years, when there won't be a litte coven somewhere on the internet pushing up their collective matronly bosom and clucking with disgust about this? I strongly suspect not. For some reason harping on about the McCanns' "neglect" gives a lot of people a lot of pleasure.
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Is it "only asking questions" though? It's the one fact both sides of the discussion acknowledge and agree on, so any continued focus on the McCanns' so-called neglect is simply for the purpose of McCann-bashing. Is there any point in the next, say, twenty years, when there won't be a litte coven somewhere on the internet pushing up their collective matronly bosom and clucking with disgust about this? I strongly suspect not. For some reason harping on about the McCanns' "neglect" gives a lot of people a lot of pleasure.
its not bashing it is the catalyst without the mcanns actions that holiday none of us would be here and maddie would
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Is it "only asking questions" though? It's the one fact both sides of the discussion acknowledge and agree on, so any continued focus on the McCanns' so-called neglect is simply for the purpose of McCann-bashing. Is there any point in the next, say, twenty years, when there won't be a litte coven somewhere on the internet pushing up their collective matronly bosom and clucking with disgust about this? I strongly suspect not. For some reason harping on about the McCanns' "neglect" gives a lot of people a lot of pleasure.
Perhaps, but who are we to deprive anyone of their little pleasures ?
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Perhaps, but who are we to deprive anyone of their little pleasures ?
My "only asking question" would be - why does it give so much pleasure, that it has become a daily pastime for some? Does it not strike you as somewhat unbalanced?
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No more than those who take pleasure from bashing, say, Amaral, or perhaps Grime.
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Is it "only asking questions" though? It's the one fact both sides of the discussion acknowledge and agree on, so any continued focus on the McCanns' so-called neglect is simply for the purpose of McCann-bashing. Is there any point in the next, say, twenty years, when there won't be a litte coven somewhere on the internet pushing up their collective matronly bosom and clucking with disgust about this? I strongly suspect not. For some reason harping on about the McCanns' "neglect" gives a lot of people a lot of pleasure.
IMO It's become the equivalent of a reassuring 'comfort blanket' for some sceptics. As soon as a few valid/ indisputable p.r.o. McCann posts/points are made - they rush off to fetch it. As predictable as day follows night.
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No more than those who take pleasure from bashing, say, Amaral, or perhaps Grime.
I don't know of anyone who bashes Amaral or Grime on a daily basis. There is no comparison IMO.
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Could we get back to The Topic, please.
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No more than those who take pleasure from bashing, say, Amaral, or perhaps Grime.
There is no daily bashing of these individuals that I am aware of, certainly no FB pages or twitter hashtags or forums whose sole purpose is to do lots of "only asking questions" about them.
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I see a lot of them as naive individuals who do not appreciate the evil out there in whatever guise.
There is a vast difference between adults..........(no matter how idealistic or naïve)...........making choices and decisions for themselves and infants dependent upon their parents to make safe choices on their behalf.
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I don't know of anyone who bashes Amaral or Grime on a daily basis. There is no comparison IMO.
I expect you know many who sit on sites set up purely for the purpose of "discussing and researching" people who are in any way critical of the McCanns, though...........as well as Amaral and Grime on a daily basis .
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There is actually a basis of logic and a rationale for casting critical comment on Messrs Grime and Amaral.
The McCanns, like Madeleine, are simply victims of an appalling crime, and the couple are doing all they can to get their daughter back.
None of this would have happened but for the mcanns incompetence in taking care of their own children.
Nothing to do with Grime, Amaral or anyone else.
Just the mccanns.
and as to the crime, it's nature has not yet been proven.
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Is it "only asking questions" though? It's the one fact both sides of the discussion acknowledge and agree on, so any continued focus on the McCanns' so-called neglect is simply for the purpose of McCann-bashing. Is there any point in the next, say, twenty years, when there won't be a litte coven somewhere on the internet pushing up their collective matronly bosom and clucking with disgust about this? I strongly suspect not. For some reason harping on about the McCanns' "neglect" gives a lot of people a lot of pleasure.
An earnest and noble mission to rid the net of all negative comments about the McCanns` parenting...........or do you find a teensy bit of pleasure in what you do?
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None of this would have happened but for the mcanns incompetence in taking care of their own children.
Nothing to do with Grime, Amaral or anyone else.
Just the mccanns.
and as to the crime, it's nature has not yet been proven.
exactly they put the blame on everybody else but maddies parents and why?
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you mcann supporters refuse to listen though without THE mccans lack of childcare they wouldn't be having to look for her now whatever did happen to maddie that night her parents were not there to protect her and mcann supporters refuse to accept that and it makes me wonder why?
The McCanns genuinely believed that being no more than a (comparative) stone's-throw away, while running regular checks, would be enough.
It turned out not to be that way ...
Why endlessly persecute them over that?
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An earnest and noble mission to rid the net of all negative comments about the McCanns` parenting...........or do you find a teensy bit of pleasure in what you do?
people will always be horrfied abput the mcanns lack of parenting and imo it is a class/older generation issue if a a women in poverty did what they did she would be in jail and have her kids taken off her
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The McCanns genuinely believed that being no more than a (comparative) stone's-throw away, while running regular checks, would be enough.
It turned out not to be that way ...
Why endlessly persecute them over that?
because it led to maddie vanishing off the face of the earth you NEVER ever take risks with babies like they did so yes people do blame the mcanns and rightly so
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There is actually a basis of logic and a rationale for casting critical comment on Messrs Grime and Amaral.
The McCanns, like Madeleine, are simply victims of an appalling crime, and the couple are doing all they can to get their daughter back.
I expect you feel that using terms like "logic and a rationale for casting critical comment" makes abusing and ridiculing other people sound so much better.
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The McCanns genuinely believed that being no more than a (comparative) stone's-throw away, while running regular checks, would be enough.
It turned out not to be that way ...
Why endlessly persecute them over that?
How do you know what they thought ?
So in your book leaving children by themselves in insecure accommodation is acceptable ?
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I expect you feel that using terms like "logic and a rationale for casting critical comment" makes abusing and ridiculing other people sound so much better.
i still stand by my OP older generation parents dont understand todays parenting and IMO they dont understand that in todays world what the mcanns did will never be accepted
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I expect you know many who sit on sites set up purely for the purpose of "discussing and researching" people who are in any way critical of the McCanns, though...........as well as Amaral and Grime on a daily basis .
I was talking about this forum. However IMO the sites which I think you are referring to only came into existence because people were (and still are) so appalled at the sustained cruel attacks made on the family of a missing child.
It's also a fact that scores of damaging myths have been - and still are in circulation - and are still used regularly against the McCanns on sceptic sites as if they were true.
Even on this forum we recently had a poster expressing her profound disgust at the McCanns as a result of seeing a piccie of them both sitting at a table with a huge amount of cash in front of them. As you know - the photo was a fake - deliberately circulated to have the precise effect that it did have on that poster.
Why would anyone object to those myths being exposed as just that....... i.e. Lies.?
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exactly they put the blame on everybody else but maddies parents and why?
It's the modern ethos.
Blame everyone else for your own incompetence.
and the mccanns having being doing that for over 7 years.
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An earnest and noble mission to rid the net of all negative comments about the McCanns` parenting...........or do you find a teensy bit of pleasure in what you do?
I am not on a mission to rid the net of all negative comments but I confess I do gain a deal of personal satisfaction in challenging some of the ludicrous ideas and spite-filled tripe spewed by some people (not limited to McCann bashers btw, but across several groups of [ censored word ]s). It's not very admirable I confess, but then perhaps not as bad as spending all day, every day for seven years "only asking questions" about the parents of a missing child.
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I am not on a mission to rid the net of all negative comments but I confess I do gain a deal of personal satisfaction in challenging some of the ludicrous ideas and spite-filled tripe spewed by some people (not limited to McCann bashers btw, but across several groups of [ censored word ]s). It's not very admirable I confess, but then perhaps not as bad as spending all day, every day for seven years "only asking questions" about the parents of a missing child.
who wouldnt be missing without her parents actions you dont seem to understand why that upsets so many people her own parents left her and she vanished and yet w e are supposed to have a love fest about the mcanns sorry but that isnt how the world works and if things dont go the mcanns way they sue people it make them look petty and cheap and not once have they ever told the world for parents not to do it instead they make people feel sorry for them while other children are ignored
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I was talking about this forum. However IMO the sites which I think you are referring to only came into existence because people were (and still are) so appalled at the sustained cruel attacks made on the family of a missing child.
It's also a fact that scores of damaging myths have been - and still are in circulation - and are still used regularly against the McCanns on sceptic sites as if they were true.
Even on this forum we recently had a poster expressing her profound disgust at the McCanns as a result of seeing a piccie of them both sitting at a table with a huge amount of cash in front of them. As you know - the photo was a fake - deliberately circulated to have the precise effect that it did have on that poster.
Why would anyone object to those myths being exposed as just that....... i.e. Lies.?
IMO...... To some the support of the McCanns and so called "myth-busting" is used as an excuse or front to indulge in what they enjoy as a group ...........the ridicule and abuse of other people.
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i still stand by my OP older generation parents dont understand todays parenting and IMO they dont understand that in todays world what the mcanns did will never be accepted
I'm afraid as long as the Baby Listening Services are still on offer - and parents can see no danger in relying on Baby Alarms when on holiday - then people will continue to leave their children asleep whilst the go elsewhere for dinner.
And IMO it is probably the 'younger' parents who will do that. As you get older you come to realise from life experience that ...... 'nasty things only happen to other people'.... isn't true. And that to everyone who doesn't know of your existence - you ARE those 'other people'.
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I was talking about this forum. However IMO the sites which I think you are referring to only came into existence because people were (and still are) so appalled at the sustained cruel attacks made on the family of a missing child.
It's also a fact that scores of damaging myths have been - and still are in circulation - and are still used regularly against the McCanns on sceptic sites as if they were true.
Even on this forum we recently had a poster expressing her profound disgust at the McCanns as a result of seeing a piccie of them both sitting at a table with a huge amount of cash in front of them. As you know - the photo was a fake - deliberately circulated to have the precise effect that it did have on that poster.
Why would anyone object to those myths being exposed as just that....... i.e. Lies.?
There is a 'myths exposed' board already on the forum, feel free to add further myths as new topics.
www.http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=58.0
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I was talking about this forum. However IMO the sites which I think you are referring to only came into existence because people were (and still are) so appalled at the sustained cruel attacks made on the family of a missing child.
It's also a fact that scores of damaging myths have been - and still are in circulation - and are still used regularly against the McCanns on sceptic sites as if they were true.
Even on this forum we recently had a poster expressing her profound disgust at the McCanns as a result of seeing a piccie of them both sitting at a table with a huge amount of cash in front of them. As you know - the photo was a fake - deliberately circulated to have the precise effect that it did have on that poster.
Why would anyone object to those myths being exposed as just that....... i.e. Lies.?
We know about this already.
Are you trying for a sympathy vote again ?
Have there been any insulting images of Amaral on the internet, or the Portuguese to do with this case ?
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I'm afraid as long as the Baby Listening Services are still on offer - and parents can see no danger in relying on Baby Alarms when on holiday - then people will continue to leave their children asleep whilst the go elsewhere for dinner.
And IMO it is probably the 'younger' parents who will do that. As you get older you come to realise from life experience that ...... 'nasty things only happen to other people'.... isn't true. And that to everyone who doesn't know of your existence - you ARE those 'other people'.
The listening service wasn`t offered by Mark Warner`s though as the site was not considered secure, was it?................and Madeleine`s parents didn`t use a baby alarm either.
To continually link them with other families is disingenuous imo. Their "service" seemed somewhat unique and is the one during which a child exposed to it is now missing.
I do not see it as a generational thing.
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I expect you feel that using terms like "logic and a rationale for casting critical comment" makes abusing and ridiculing other people sound so much better.
I have never abused or ridiculed the McCanns.
It must be a generation gap thing.
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I have never abused or ridiculed the McCanns.
It must be a generation gap thing.
It's not a generation gap thing, it's to do with whether or not you were brought up to respect others, to have manners and decorum, to give people the benefit of the doubt, to not be unpleasantly judgmental about others, not to spread lies and gossip about others. IMO.
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I have never abused or ridiculed the McCanns.
It must be a generation gap thing.
Of course you haven't, you're on here to defend them.
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I would agree with Carew that we who pass comments on this case are all to a greater or lesser extent obsessed, it's just the objection and manifestation of the obsession that differs. I, for example, am not obsessed by the fact that the McCanns left their kids unattended. Some people however are so obsessed by this fact that they like to exercise their obsession every day for years and years and years. I don't think it's particularly doing themselves or anyone else any favours, but each to their own I suppose.
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The listening service wasn`t offered by Mark Warner`s though as the site was not considered secure, was it?................and Madeleine`s parents didn`t use a baby alarm either.
To continually link them with other families is disingenuous imo. Their "service" seemed somewhat unique and is the one during which a child exposed to it is now missing.
I do not see it as a generational thing.
The Listening Service was commonplace at holiday resorts for decades. That can only be because there was a demand for it. IMO to pretend the McCanns are the only people to have used the same method is far more disingenuous.
One of the reasons they did it was because other members of the group had used it successfully in the past.
IMO people simply don't want to acknowledge the fact that the McCanns are just one family amongst thousands who have used this particular kind of childcare - but only when on holiday.
Is that because 'demonising' just one set of parents, whilst turning a blind eye to the thousands of others who are 'guilty' of doing the same would appear to be more than a tad hypocritical?
Best just to not mention them at all eh? - let alone accuse them of 'neglect'
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I sometimes think that had the McCanns spent some of their campaigning time volunteering to educate, advise and discuss attitudes to child care issues with, maybe, young people...............to actually confront the misgivings people have about their attitude to supervision at night , it might have helped their own situation in terms of public perception.
They may not feel they should need to do this , but in their roles as doctors and parents, their endorsement and advice from experience could have been helpful .........a touch of humility maybe.
I do think that the defensiveness and excuse making, (which often borders on the ridiculous ) from their "supporters" has been counter-productive...........
The McCanns could have done better via education and advice to others themselves, rather than bullying and vilifying any perceived critics by proxy through their "supporters ."
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I sometimes think that had the McCanns spent some of their campaigning time volunteering to educate, advise and discuss attitudes to child care issues with, maybe, young people...............to actually confront the misgivings people have about their attitude to supervision at night , it might have helped their own situation in terms of public perception.
They may not feel they should need to do this , but in their roles as doctors and parents, their endorsement and advice from experience could have been helpful .........a touch of humility maybe.
I do think that the defensiveness and excuse making, (which often borders on the ridiculous ) from their "supporters" has been counter-productive...........
The McCanns could have done better via education and advice to others themselves, rather than bullying and vilifying any perceived critics by proxy through their "supporters ."
It's probably fair to say that the McCanns, themselves, would not repeat what they did that night.
But that isn't to say that what they did was wrong.
There are some things you just can't predict.
Abduction is one ...
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It's not a generation gap thing, it's to do with whether or not you were brought up to respect others, to have manners and decorum, to give people the benefit of the doubt, to not be unpleasantly judgmental about others, not to spread lies and gossip about others. IMO.
You wonder how the police managed in those days of bliss?
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No more than those who take pleasure from bashing, say, Amaral, or perhaps Grime.
neither amaral nor grime have suffered the loss the mccanns have...there is an absolute world of difference which seems lost on some people..the very fact you compare
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You wonder how the police managed in those days of bliss?
How the police managed to do what, and what days of bliss are you referring to?
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I sometimes think that had the McCanns spent some of their campaigning time volunteering to educate, advise and discuss attitudes to child care issues with, maybe, young people...............to actually confront the misgivings people have about their attitude to supervision at night , it might have helped their own situation in terms of public perception.
They may not feel they should need to do this , but in their roles as doctors and parents, their endorsement and advice from experience could have been helpful .........a touch of humility maybe.
I do think that the defensiveness and excuse making, (which often borders on the ridiculous ) from their "supporters" has been counter-productive...........
The McCanns could have done better via education and advice to others themselves, rather than bullying and vilifying any perceived critics by proxy through their "supporters ."
Why not berate Sara Payne for not spending some of her campaigning time warning of the dangers of letting children explore the countryside without a responsible adult to supervise them? Jesus...
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Why not berate Sara Payne for not spending some of her campaigning time warning of the dangers of letting children explore the countryside without a responsible adult to supervise them? Jesus...
because her child was not a toddler like maddie 10 and under should NOT be left alone ever
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because her child was not a toddler like maddie 10 and under should NOT be left alone ever
Neither was Sarah tucked up in bed sound asleep.
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neither amaral nor grime have suffered the loss the mccanns have...there is an absolute world of difference which seems lost on some people..the very fact you compare
The mccanns 'loss' is due to their own stupidity and negligence.
Since then other people have copped the blame, INEXCUSABLY.
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Neither was Sarah tucked up in bed sound asleep.
Maddie was tucked up in bed, lying on top of/under the covers, with the covers folded down, or sumink.
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Children tend to be safer tucked up in bed asleep than roaming the countryside whatever age they are. Far more likely to come to harm outdoors unsupervised than whilst asleep in bed. As a parent I know this, but then it doesn't take a genius to work out. But I also know that children thrive when given freedom and opportunity to play out without nagging parents hanging around, hence I do not expect Sara Payne to lecture me about it, nor I'm sure would she. Shit happens that can't be predicted and parents should not be eternally lambasted for their inability to predict the future.
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Children tend to be safer tucked up in bed asleep than roaming the countryside whatever age they are. Far more likely to come to harm outdoors unsupervised than whilst asleep in bed. As a parent I know this, but then it doesn't take a genius to work out. But I also know that children thrive when given freedom and opportunity to play out without nagging parents hanging around, hence I do not expect Sara Payne to lecture me about it, nor I'm sure would she. Shit happens that can't be predicted and parents should not be eternally lambasted for their inability to predict the future.
AND THAT IS WHY YOU MINIMIZE THE RISKS.
and use common sense.
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aged 3 a toddlers brain is just developing why cant people grasp that?? a human has no real memories until the age of 4 or 5 so IF maddie is alive she woould have no memory of the mcanns or the twins yet mcann supporters have this fairytale image of maddie coming back alive and well without a care in the world you have to live in the real world
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AND THAT IS WHY YOU MINIMIZE THE RISKS.
and use common sense.
hence my title generation GAP imo THERE IS A BIG ONE
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Sorry for Hoping. Must be The Generation Gap. Do younger generations have no hope?
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Sorry for Hoping. Must be The Generation Gap. Do younger generations have no hope?
there is hope and there is realistic be honest do you think 7 almost 8 years later maddie is alive and unharmed like the mcanns say she is? in your heart of hearts being totally honest
see the thing is older generations were taught to supress their emotions/opinions our generations were not and older people dont understand
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How the police managed to do what, and what days of bliss are you referring to?
Investigate crime when they had to give people the benefit of the doubt and not be judgemental.
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aged 3 a toddlers brain is just developing why cant people grasp that?? a human has no real memories until the age of 4 or 5 so IF maddie is alive she woould have no memory of the mcanns or the twins yet mcann supporters have this fairytale image of maddie coming back alive and well without a care in the world you have to live in the real world
no one believes that
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Investigate crime when they had to give people the benefit of the doubt and not be judgemental.
Hang on a minute, I think you are doing that conflating thing. I was talking about people as in the general public, not the police whose profession it is to investigate crime. As far as I know it's not part of their investigative remit to "only ask questions" on social media and spreading gossip and lies about people they suspect of crimes.
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It's probably fair to say that the McCanns, themselves, would not repeat what they did that night.
But that isn't to say that what they did was wrong.
There are some things you just can't predict.
Abduction is one ...
You don`t need to admit wrong doing in order to make recommendations and advise.
The McCanns were able to "predict" their child might wake distressed by the fact that that she had done so the night before.
.........Indeed it had been discussed, with the idea mooted that the door be left unlocked in order for Madeleine to get out and find them, rather than find herself locked in.
Perhaps it`s a generational thing..........
Thousands of us with these self-sufficient, independent, unmollycoddled, weeping toddlers like Madeleine, expected to yell across to the restaurant from the balcony or negotiate the environment at night-time to find their parents......
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there is hope and there is realistic be honest do you think 7 almost 8 years later maddie is alive and unharmed like the mcanns say she is? in your heart of hearts being totally honest
see the thing is older generations were taught to supress their emotions/opinions our generations were not and older people dont understand
In my heart of hearts, I most sincerely hope so. What do you most sincerely hope for?
Oh, and you are right. I don't understand.
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You don`t need to admit wrong doing in order to make recommendations and advise.
The McCanns were able to "predict" their child might wake distressed by the fact that that she had done so the night before.
.........Indeed it had been discussed, with the idea mooted that the door be left unlocked in order for Madeleine to get out and find them, rather than find herself locked in.
Perhaps it`s a generational thing..........
Thousands of us with these self-sufficient, independent, unmollycoddled, weeping toddlers like Madeleine, expected to yell across to the restaurant from the balcony or negotiate the environment at night-time to find their parents......
well remember it was their holiday too the situation maddie found her self in that was her problem ......
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In my heart of hearts, I most sincerely hope so. What do you most sincerely hope for?
Oh, and you are right. I don't understand.
i hope if she is deceased i hope they find her body one day and that it was quick she she didnt feel any pain i also hope that IF she is alive which i do not believe because cavider dogs know what they are doing i also hope IF the one chance the dogs were wrong and she is alive she has not suffered for all these years hence me hoping that whatever did happen that it was quick and that one day they find the real perpetrators if that maybe the mcanns or whoever else......
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i hope if she is deceased i hope they find her body one day and that it was quick she she didnt feel any pain i also hope that IF she is alive which i do not believe because cavider dogs know what they are doing i also hope IF the one chance the dogs were wrong and she is alive she has not suffered for all these years hence me hoping that whatever did happen that it was quick and that one day they find the real perpetrators if that maybe the mcanns or whoever else......
It is so much more simple just to hope, I find. My generation tend to do this
But thanks for the reply.
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in most forums the real no changing their mind mcann supporters seem to be in their 60s or 70s the world was a diffrent place when they were growing up/being a parent then now it makes me wonder my generation ( 30s) are alot more protective of their children and would never dream of leaving their children alone to go out to dinner yet it seems older generations did do it and compare that time to nowdays
An interesting and thought provoking thread before it got a little sidetracked, well worth a second look.
The modern day phenomena of paedophilia isn't as it would appear. It has always been there in one guise or another, a funny uncle as one female poster referred to it. The truth however is a little more sinister, a victim would not think it in the least funny.
Could it be that in bygone days a blind eye was turned to this sort of anti social behaviour choosing instead to shrug it off as some sort of oddity or eccentricity?
Question is, has it got worse or do we simply perceive it to be so?
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An interesting and thought provoking thread before it got a little sidetracked, well worth a second look.
The modern day phenomena of paedophilia isn't as it would appear. It has always been there in one guise or another, a funny uncle as one female poster referred to it. The truth however is a little more sinister, a victim would not think it in the least funny.
Could it be that in bygone days a blind eye was turned to this sort of anti social behaviour choosing instead to shrug it off as some sort of oddity or eccentricity?
Question is, has it got worse or do we simply perceive it to be so?
Very hard to measure I guess. I'd assume the Internet may have made the problems worse by giving oxygen to some peoples dark desires by being able to find that kind of material on the t'internet.
That's the only real reason I can think of. Much of it is likely perception as you say these type of crimes are more likely to be reported nowadays. At least I would hope so. People seem much less tolerant of this kind of thing now due to media exposure and other factors.
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An interesting and thought provoking thread before it got a little sidetracked, well worth a second look.
The modern day phenomena of paedophilia isn't as it would appear. It has always been there in one guise or another, a funny uncle as one female poster referred to it. The truth however is a little more sinister, a victim would not think it in the least funny.
Could it be that in bygone days a blind eye was turned to this sort of anti social behaviour choosing instead to shrug it off as some sort of oddity or eccentricity?
Question is, has it got worse or do we simply perceive it to be so?
Do you mean inter familial stuff or by "total strangers"? We have to be careful of definition of "stranger" here. In many parts of the world "stranger" means anyone who is not a parent of the victim hence I use "total stranger" to mean someone who is not related to the victim.
My opinion is that by "total strangers" there has been no perceptible increase but have no substantive evidence to back up that opinion other than in the USA it is well recorded there has been no significant increase in abduction of children by "total strangers". What is of concern is there seem to be emerging possible cases of institutionalised abuse of children dating back at least 50 years.
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Gosh! A lot of funny stuff goes on in families which never sees the light of day and that has been happening since the dawn of modern man. My own view is that our modern sensitivities to all things abhorrent has been fine tuned because of media exposure. Paedo bashing has become a modern pastime for all those who consider their own moral compass to be beyond reproach.
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Gosh! A lot of funny stuff goes on in families which never sees the light of day and that has been happening since the dawn of modern man. My own view is that our modern sensitivities to all things abhorrent has been fine tuned because of media exposure. Paedo bashing has become a modern pastime for all those who consider their own moral compass to be beyond reproach.
Paedophilia has always existed at all levels in society. In many cases it was too abhorrent a practice to be contemplated and tended to be brushed under the carpet ... authoritative figures who were offenders were believed when their victims were not.
There is no excuse for people who abuse children, nor should there be any let up in making them pay for their crimes with the full force of the law.
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Paedophilia has always existed at all levels in society. In many cases it was too abhorrent a practice to be contemplated and tended to be brushed under the carpet ... authoritative figures who were offenders were believed when their victims were not.
There is no excuse for people who abuse children, nor should there be any let up in making them pay for their crimes with the full force of the law.
Out of interest, how does an octogenarian with Alzheimer's pay for his crimes of three or more decades ago?
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Gosh! A lot of funny stuff goes on in families which never sees the light of day and that has been happening since the dawn of modern man. My own view is that our modern sensitivities to all things abhorrent has been fine tuned because of media exposure. Paedo bashing has become a modern pastime for all those who consider their own moral compass to be beyond reproach.
Too true! but the distorted perception of what is a paedophile results in the "paedo" being bashed being some geezer who is described as "a loner" wearing a raincoat that will stand up on its own in a corner. Lets hope events of this week will dispel that notion.
The RCMP published a very good paper on the subject.
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Paedophilia has always existed at all levels in society. In many cases it was too abhorrent a practice to be contemplated and tended to be brushed under the carpet ... authoritative figures who were offenders were believed when their victims were not.
There is no excuse for people who abuse children, nor should there be any let up in making them pay for their crimes with the full force of the law.
+1
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What about them who feign abuse, should they too face the full force of the law?
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Out of interest, how does an octogenarian with Alzheimer's pay for his crimes of three or more decades ago?
Whatever the law determines.
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What about them who feign abuse, should they too face the full force of the law?
Anyone who commits the crime of perjury should indeed face the full force of law.
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The opening post suggests that people now in their 60's or 70's appear more tolerant of the McCann's child minding technique when Madeleine disappeared but I don't find that to be the case. No parent I know from my generation would have dreamt of leaving young children alone in a room or an apartment for more than a few minutes. Maybe there is a cultural split here instead of a generational one?
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The opening post suggests that people now in their 60's or 70's appear more tolerant of the McCann's child minding technique when Madeleine disappeared but I don't find that to be the case. No parent I know from my generation would have dreamt of leaving young children alone in a room or an apartment for more than a few minutes. Maybe there is a cultural split here instead of a generational one?
I did leave my children alone, in the evenings, for short periods, when they were asleep. But I am most certainly not going to offer any excuses or reasons, or give this Forum chapter and verse of my social or intellectual standing at the time.
Suffice to say that I was a serving member of Her Majesty's Senior Service as a qualified Air Mechanic, and have a registered IQ of 149.
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The opening post suggests that people now in their 60's or 70's appear more tolerant of the McCann's child minding technique when Madeleine disappeared but I don't find that to be the case. No parent I know from my generation would have dreamt of leaving young children alone in a room or an apartment for more than a few minutes. Maybe there is a cultural split here instead of a generational one?
baby listening services are still being advertised now