UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Passer-by on August 03, 2015, 04:52:12 PM
-
Apologies if you've covered this before!
I'm genuinely perplexed as to why, if Bamber did it, Sheila...
- Had no self defence wounds
- Had no narcotics in her blood that would render her unconscious
- Was on the floor of her parents bedroom
I don't see how he achieved this: both parents clearly reacted and put up a fight, why not SC? She has to have died after her father otherwise he'd have stepped over her to get out of bed, so it's unlikely JB made her go in with them at gunpoint, shot his mother and father whilst they resisted but she remain inert and didn't respond.
I'd have thought the most likely modus operandi would be to pick individuals off, not herd them all together. If the plan was to creep in at the dead of night, surely the general idea would be to shoot them as they individually slept, in which case why isn't peaceful, unmarked Sheila in her own bed?
If Sheila had to step over her dying mother and was told to lie down it would be obvious her number was up and she would have fought to save her children. Was Sheila sleeping in bed with her mother and Nevill somewhere else?
The blood patterns on her clothes look to me as though both shots were delivered where she lay, so she can't have been shot somewhere else and moved there: why was she lying on the floor without a fight? For there to be no defence wounds she has to have been either cooperating or unconscious. There was nothing in her blood to suggest she had been drugged, so if she was unconscious why was she on the floor? People don't faint when dramas unfold: their bodies kick out adrenaline for fight or flight to prevent this.
I can't see any convincing reason why she would lie down and be shot, why she wasn't in her own bed, nor can I think of any convincing reason why a murderer would shoot her twice: all he had to do was wait or lightly pinch her nostrils, if he'd callously planned all this right down to positioning his mother's bicycle he'd have known it was one-shot only for the 'suicide' plan.
What's the accepted view?
8
-
I don't think this subject has had its own topic previously although separate elements have been discussed. I have tidied up your intro slightly.
Busy at the moment but will post a response in due course.
-
Thank you John: please feel free to edit the rest - it does loop-the-loop somewhat as my head spins! *&*%£
-
I come back to a point I often make in that imo decisions should only be arrived at by taking a multi-disciplinary approach. By this I mean pathologist, scene of crime forensics, ballistics and psychologist/psychiatrist.
I find it very odd that SC took her own life in her parents room that was very bloody and close to June who by all accounts she had a very poor relationship with. Why would she not take her own life next to her beloved sons or even in her own room? Or a.n other room eg lounge? Perhaps a psychologist or psychiatrist could help out here? If she was compliant for JB surely he would think the same and stage a suicide in her own room? Perhaps when the police turned up en masse she panicked, reached for the bible and...
-
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5594.0;attach=4502
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5594.0;attach=4506
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
Can I confirm please that the bloody side of the bed was where June had been sleeping, and was subsequently shot, and is nearest to the door leading to the hallway? The other side of the bed is where NB slept and the door nearest to NB's side of the bed leads to the box room?
-
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5594.0;attach=4502
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5594.0;attach=4506
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947
Can I confirm please that the bloody side of the bed was where June had been sleeping, and was subsequently shot, and is nearest to the door leading to the hallway? The other side of the bed is where NB slept and the door nearest to NB's side of the bed leads to the box room?
That's correct Holly.
-
Dr V states in his interview with CAL that he believes JB shot the twins first. Malcolm Fletcher disagrees. This brings me back to the point re a multi-disciplinary approach and some sort of consensus reached. I don't see how it can reliably be any other way?
Surely if JB was responsible he would tackle arguably his greatest threat first ie NB. It makes no sense to to me to shoot the poor little twins first and potentially get caught by the three adults overhearing and then overpowering JB and/or raising the alarm either internally via a phone or externally by fleeing to a neighbouring cottage bearing in mind WHF has 2/3 staircases.
-
Apologies if you've covered this before!
I'm genuinely perplexed as to why, if Bamber did it, Sheila...
- Had no self defence wounds
- Had no narcotics in her blood that would render her unconscious
- Was on the floor of her parents bedroom
I don't see how he achieved this: both parents clearly reacted and put up a fight, why not SC? She has to have died after her father otherwise he'd have stepped over her to get out of bed, so it's unlikely JB made her go in with them at gunpoint, shot his mother and father whilst they resisted but she remain inert and didn't respond.
* Firstly, there was no reason why Sheila had to have defence wounds, if I recall correctly without referring to the autopsy report, June didn't have any either. When you have a rifle pointed at your head there isn't much you can do about it and who knows what story Jeremy told Sheila when confronted by him.
* Secondly, there was no need for Sheila to have 'narcotics in her blood'. Had Jeremy used something to temporarily restrain her it is quite possible that it was undetectable.
* Lastly, Sheila was in her parents bedroom because she had been either shepherded there or carried there unconscious by her assailant.
June never put up a fight, she was shot and seriously injured in her bed and shot again as she staggered to her feet. Sheila could very well have been shot before the twins, Jeremy could have used the threat of shooting them to get Sheila to comply.
-
Dr V states in his interview with CAL that he believes JB shot the twins first. Malcolm Fletcher disagrees. This brings me back to the point re a multi-disciplinary approach and some sort of consensus reached. I don't see how it can reliably be any other way?
Surely if JB was responsible he would tackle arguably his greatest threat first ie NB. It makes no sense to to me to shoot the poor little twins first and potentially get caught by the three adults overhearing and then overpowering JB and/or raising the alarm either internally via a phone or externally by fleeing to a neighbouring cottage bearing in mind WHF has 2/3 staircases.
I agree with you and Fletcher on this Holly, Nevill was the danger that Jeremy had to overcome. Jeremy had to use the twins as bargaining chips in order to get Sheila to comply.
-
I agree with you and Fletcher on this Holly, Nevill was the danger that Jeremy had to overcome. Jeremy had to use the twins as bargaining chips in order to get Sheila to comply.
But if JB positioned SC on the floor with the rifle pushed up against her neck she was more than likely going to realise what was coming next and that would be enough to propel most mothers into action as effectively she was going to be separated from the twins?
-
* Firstly, there was no reason why Sheila had to have defence wounds, if I recall correctly without referring to the autopsy report, June didn't have any either. When you have a rifle pointed at your head there isn't much you can do about it and who knows what story Jeremy told Sheila when confronted by him.
* Secondly, there was no need for Sheila to have 'narcotics in her blood'. Had Jeremy used something to temporarily restrain her it is quite possible that it was undetectable.
* Lastly, Sheila was in her parents bedroom because she had been either shepherded there or carried there unconscious by her assailant.
June never put up a fight, she was shot and seriously injured in her bed and shot again as she staggered to her feet. Sheila could very well have been shot before the twins, Jeremy could have used the threat of shooting them to get Sheila to comply.
I agree and yet many think it must have been JB as SC could not have overpowered NB even though she might have been wielding a loaded semi-auto rifle.
-
If only teddy could speak!
(http://i.imgur.com/KmzAS6F.jpg?1)
A scene of horror. The master bedroom where June Bamber was fatally shot 7 times.
-
* Firstly, there was no reason why Sheila had to have defence wounds, if I recall correctly without referring to the autopsy report, June didn't have any either. When you have a rifle pointed at your head there isn't much you can do about it and who knows what story Jeremy told Sheila when confronted by him.
June never put up a fight, she was shot and seriously injured in her bed and shot again as she staggered to her feet. Sheila could very well have been shot before the twins, Jeremy could have used the threat of shooting them to get Sheila to comply.
Yes, but June's shots were clearly chaotic and she made a move to escape, whereas Sheila's are precise and only possible to accomplish with an inert body. If Sheila had been restrained she would have had marks on her wrists.
The far side of her parents bed was the furthest she could be from police breaking in down in the kitchen. I guess if she shot her children because she thought they were the devil or imposters she would not want to be near them. Also, as CC said child killers don't like to admit what they've done perhaps that applied to her as well.
I seem to recall seeing somewhere that her bed wasn't slept in?
-
Possibly slept in, then the brown duvet? and bed cover hurriedly replaced by Sheila, or by JB to make it appear that she had slept at first but then got up.
(http://i.imgur.com/140Ny5V.jpg?1)
-
Thanks for the photo Myster: the pillow doesn't look particularly used.
Is it possible Neville was not in bed when all this kicked off? My father-in-law who is a farmer has always got up at about 3.30am because he reckons he needs to be up for something (I suspect more because of habit): however he has about 500 dairy cattle to tend to. Did the Bambers' farm have any cattle in the shed next door? Perhaps Nevill was down in the kitchen when it kicked off and Sheila shot June, Nevill heard it and called for help then ran upstairs where he was shot, then ran back downstairs and was overcome in the kitchen. If SC then she might have gone back to put a head shot into her mother before stepping over her to get to her bible?
-
Thanks for the photo Myster: the pillow doesn't look particularly used.
Is it possible Neville was not in bed when all this kicked off? My father-in-law who is a farmer has always got up at about 3.30am because he reckons he needs to be up for something (I suspect more because of habit): however he has about 500 dairy cattle to tend to. Did the Bambers' farm have any cattle in the shed next door? Perhaps Nevill was down in the kitchen when it kicked off and Sheila shot June, Nevill heard it and called for help then ran upstairs where he was shot, then ran back downstairs and was overcome in the kitchen. If SC then she might have gone back to put a head shot into her mother before stepping over her to get to her bible?
There's an indent in the pillow where Sheila's head could have been.
According to Robert Boutflour, Nevill was out like a light as soon as his head hit the pillow, so was probably only woken up by the first shots at June. I'm not sure if any cattle were kept as it was mainly arable, although someone might correct me on this.
I think if Nevill was in the kitchen and heard any shot upstairs he would have been upstairs like a shot to disarm Sheila before attempting to phone anyone, his son or the police.
There was no debris, dirt or cuts on Sheila's bare feet, so unlikely that she was ever in the kitchen struggling with her father... unless you believe in ritual washing.
-
I don't believe in ritual washing but I believe she might have changed if her clothing had been marked by (or she thought marked by) her menstrual cycle.
I've found a thing on his blog (at least it says it's his?):
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/A%20life%20of%20Less%20Liberty (http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/A%20life%20of%20Less%20Liberty)
It says they had a beef herd in the shed next to the house: my brother-in-law has the same set-up except with dairy cattle, he's often up in the night if a calf is being born etc and certainly either he or farm hands seem to be out tending to them long before breakfast. So he might have been able to go to sleep easily, but if he knew a calf was due might have been out to it and come back in, or perhaps heard it in distress and got up to see if it needed assistance.
If he was in the kitchen, he might have heard the shots, telephonec for help, run up the stairs, met SC in the bedroom doorway and, without even seeing June, been shot at sufficiently (arm/throat etc) to need to retreat and then been chased back to the kitchen and stopped not from using the phone but from trying to get to the gun cupboard himself.
Have done some homework on family annihilators and discovered that one of their characteristics is the murder is always planned.. So with that in mind, instead of the emphasis being on why JB asked when they would next be at the farm, perhaps it should be flipped and asked 'why did Sheila bring the children to the farm, a place she hated?' - perhaps because it had the family annihilators' weapon of choice: a gun.
Perhaps she was in the bedroom reading the bible to June, who was the prime character she thought needed saving from the devil?
I still can't think why, logically, she wasn't shot first in her sleep on her bed, as the one who had to be killed with one clean shot. But if she was complying it would have made more sense for that one shot to be in her mouth, not her neck as it's more deadly and more usual in suicides.
-
That's correct Holly.
Thanks. The reason I asked is that I learned from the book P324 that the blood on the carpet and socks found next to Sheila belonged to June's blood group. So on this basis June must have moved from her side of the bed, nearest the main door, in the direction of the door to the box room and then back again? Why did she do this? Move away from her killer and take refuge in the box room? Attempt to use the bedside phone usually positioned on NB's side? Get to the twins via the box room? Why move back again? Perhaps she was just in shock/disorientated or attempting to get to the office phone? I think June and NB both demonstrated they were brave souls from their roles in WW2 so they would not have given in easily.
The book does however make reference to June's blood group so if test results were based on blood group alone and not the proteins and enzymes, as with the silencer, then June and SC shared the same blood group. Although the distribution of dripping/spotting on the carpet and socks doesn't seem consistent with the two gunshot wounds SC sustained so it's probably a safe bet the blood did originate from June.
-
I think there's furniture blocking the doorway between the box room and the Twins' room? If the killer was blocking the main exit, I guess she would head that way, but perhaps June was left incapacitated by the killer whose attentions turned to Nevill arriving from downstairs and then June crawled to the door to the landing only for the killer, having dealt with Nevill, coming back and finishing her off with a headshot?
-
I think there's furniture blocking the doorway between the box room and the Twins' room? If the killer was blocking the main exit, I guess she would head that way, but perhaps June was left incapacitated by the killer whose attentions turned to Nevill arriving from downstairs and then June crawled to the door to the landing only for the killer, having dealt with Nevill, coming back and finishing her off with a headshot?
Yes overall that's the way I see it.
-
Yes overall that's the way I see it.
Phew: so even if I'm losing my marbles on this I'm in good company ;-)