UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: anglolawyer on October 15, 2015, 10:24:20 AM
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I read somewhere, I forget where, about a folded pair of trousers found near Nevill. His pyjamas were pulled down or had fallen down too. Anything in this? If there is, which of these theories works best?
1 Sheila in her insanity wanted to dress her dead pop
2 Jeremy had some idea connected with having his father found in his day clothes but abandoned it part way through
3 the trousers are meaningless, maybe June was going to sow a button on them or something
4 something else
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It's unusual for trousers to be neatly laid on a dirty kitchen floor for no purpose, so maybe they were put there to prevent the spread of blood from Nevill's head wounds, which was running down the side of the coal scuttle. Ditto for the three cushions and towel nearby. Why would the assailant do that if he wanted to be out of the house asap? There seems no logical reason, unless it was to prevent transfer of blood from his shoe soles should he step in the pool, if he intended traipsing through the house again. Would the police/TFU interfere with the crime scene by doing the same?
The trousers might have been airing on the ceiling drying rack above and just in front of the AGA, so were conveniently to hand to lay on the floor.
What is more interesting to me is the fact that Nevill was perched astride a chairback in the most uncomfortable looking position of any murder victim I've seen. Did he end up there on his own, or was he lifted there by the assailant? Some even say he was moved there by the TFU who barged in through the kitchen door, pushing Nevill over who was seated just behind it.
I think his pyjama bottoms simply dropped down during the struggle, which may have caused him to lose balance and end up where he did.
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It's unusual for trousers to be neatly laid on a dirty kitchen floor for no purpose, so maybe they were put there to prevent the spread of blood from Nevill's head wounds, which was running down the side of the coal scuttle. Ditto for the three cushions and towel nearby. Why would the assailant do that if he wanted to be out of the house asap? There seems no logical reason, unless it was to prevent transfer of blood from his shoe soles should he step in the pool, if he intended traipsing through the house again. Would the police/TFU interfere with the crime scene by doing the same?
The trousers might have been airing on the ceiling drying rack above and just in front of the AGA, so were conveniently to hand to lay on the floor.
What is more interesting to me is the fact that Nevill was perched astride a chairback in the most uncomfortable looking position of any murder victim I've seen. Did he end up there on his own, or was he lifted there by the assailant? Some even say he was moved there by the TFU who barged in through the kitchen door, pushing Nevill over who was seated just behind it.
I think his pyjama bottoms simply dropped down during the struggle, which may have caused him to lose balance and end up where he did.
I imagine that the items on the floor were to prevent the assailant walking through blood.
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I read somewhere, I forget where, about a folded pair of trousers found near Nevill. His pyjamas were pulled down or had fallen down too. Anything in this? If there is, which of these theories works best?
1 Sheila in her insanity wanted to dress her dead pop
2 Jeremy had some idea connected with having his father found in his day clothes but abandoned it part way through
3 the trousers are meaningless, maybe June was going to sow a button on them or something
4 something else
The most logical explanation surely is that they were placed there to prevent the various police officers and surgeon stepping in blood. Although I am quite certain I haven't read anything to this effect in any WS's. Perhaps held under PII 8(0(*
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I read somewhere, I forget where, about a folded pair of trousers found near Nevill. His pyjamas were pulled down or had fallen down too. Anything in this? If there is, which of these theories works best?
1 Sheila in her insanity wanted to dress her dead pop
2 Jeremy had some idea connected with having his father found in his day clothes but abandoned it part way through
3 the trousers are meaningless, maybe June was going to sow a button on them or something
4 something else
Does this Sheila ritual dressing theory still stand, Clive, or is the mopping up blood idea more sensible? And if so by whom?
Any ideas as to how Nevill came to be perched on the chair back? Assailant, police or self? Before or after rigor mortis had set in?
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Does this Sheila ritual dressing theory still stand, Clive, or is the mopping up blood idea more sensible? And if so by whom?
Any ideas as to how Nevill came to be perched on the chair back? Assailant, police or self? Before or after rigor mortis had set in?
I want to see proper photographs before buying into the peculiar idea that Nevill was somehow positioned after rigour mortis had set in. That would entail waiting hours for that to happen and then doing something utterly pointless. Why would anyone do that?
I don't buy the ritual dressing or blood-mopping ideas either although the first seems slightly more likely than the second. Anyway, again I would like to see photographs.
I don't know whether any of those blue forum people read here, but if they do, I would hope they would have a word with Bamber and prevail on him to release all the photographs and all trial transcripts, exhibits and other documents in exactly the same way that other alleged victims of miscarriages of justice have done so that his case may be thoroughly scrutinised. The advantage to an innocent person of having many pairs of eyes look at his case and possibly turn up something that has been missed (a possibility I strongly believe in even in the most stale cases) vastly outweighs any conceivable disadvantage.
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I want to see proper photographs before buying into the peculiar idea that Nevill was somehow positioned after rigour mortis had set in. That would entail waiting hours for that to happen and then doing something utterly pointless. Why would anyone do that?
I don't buy the ritual dressing or blood-mopping ideas either although the first seems slightly more likely than the second. Anyway, again I would like to see photographs.
I don't know whether any of those blue forum people read here, but if they do, I would hope they would have a word with Bamber and prevail on him to release all the photographs and all trial transcripts, exhibits and other documents in exactly the same way that other alleged victims of miscarriages of justice have done so that his case may be thoroughly scrutinised. The advantage to an innocent person of having many pairs of eyes look at his case and possibly turn up something that has been missed (a possibility I strongly believe in even in the most stale cases) vastly outweighs any conceivable disadvantage.
The "blue forum people" and JB's campaign team are two distinct groups. JB's campaign team (ct) call the shots. The ct seeks to distance itself from The Jeremy Bamber forum aka blue:
"This organisation does not operate or support www.jeremybamberforum.co.uk and we nor Jeremy have any association with, or control over it".
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/about
The Blue forum is owned by Mike Tesko an ex con who spent time with JB. To give you some idea in the last few days he has claimed JB fathered a child pre-prison and NB was shot 4 times by EP. Not a shred of evidence for either. In between these claims he told a very reasonable and decent poster to fcuk off or shut up, I can recall which, as she doubted him. Yes this is the place I was banned from, for a week, due to some childish comments about knitting and puppy fat!!!!!!!!!!
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The "blue forum people" and JB's campaign team are two distinct groups. JB's campaign team (ct) call the shots. The ct seeks to distance itself from The Jeremy Bamber forum aka blue:
"This organisation does not operate or support www.jeremybamberforum.co.uk and we nor Jeremy have any association with, or control over it".
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/about
The Blue forum is owned by Mike Tesko an ex con who spent time with JB. To give you some idea in the last few days he has claimed JB fathered a child pre-prison and NB was shot 4 times by EP. Not a shred of evidence for either. In between these claims he told a very reasonable and decent poster to fcuk off or shut up, I can recall which, as she doubted him. Yes this is the place I was banned from, for a week, due to some childish comments about knitting and puppy fat!!!!!!!!!!
I am quite sure you were treated much less harshly than you deserved, Holly.
Thanks for the info btw.
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I am quite sure you were treated much less harshly than you deserved, Holly.
Thanks for the info btw.
Experiencing first hand a gross injustice has enabled me to better understand JB's plight!
If you haven't done so it's worth registering on Blue to access the library and archives - it has more material than Red - but post at your peril!
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Experiencing first hand a gross injustice has enabled me to better understand JB's plight!
If you haven't done so it's worth registering on Blue to access the library and archives - it has more material than Red - but post at your peril!
If I could figure out how, I would. I cannot see where to do it.
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Here's the registration page, Clive...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=register (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=register)
Handy for the docs, etc., but I wouldn't bother wasting time arguing with MT... scipio has been doing so for a couple of years to no effect.
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If I could figure out how, I would. I cannot see where to do it.
I imagine you'd be very welcome. Don't give up trying.
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Here's the registration page, Clive...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=register (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=register)
Handy for the docs, etc., but I wouldn't bother wasting time arguing with MT... scipio has been doing so for a couple of years to no effect.
Thanks
To my surprise, I found I was already registered there. I have no idea how or when that happened.
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I imagine you'd be very welcome. Don't give up trying.
Thanks April
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I imagine that the items on the floor were to prevent the assailant walking through blood.
If not for such blood would have seeped all over the floor. If that happened then the killer could no longer walk in the kitchen without leaving bloody prints so would be forced to avoid the kitchen if he/she didn't want to leave prints.
It is also possible the killer did step in blood but decided to clean up the blood to conceal the prints and then used the materials to pretend blood didn't get beyond so no one knew it was cleaned up.
There is no reason why Sheila would worry about such but Jeremy would because if he did step in blood then have to clean it up the cleaning up would not be consistent with Sheila doing it.
There is another problem than just worrying about stepping in blood though. If the floor was full of blood but it was free of prints from Sheila that would hurt his attempt to frame her. So there are a number of different issues all tied together of why one would aim to soak up the blood IF one were trying to avoid being caught.
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The most logical explanation surely is that they were placed there to prevent the various police officers and surgeon stepping in blood. Although I am quite certain I haven't read anything to this effect in any WS's. Perhaps held under PII 8(0(*
CoA has Dr Craig, police surgeon, arriving at 8.10am and certifying all five deaths by 8.50am confirmed elsewhere. DC Bird, soc photographer, did not arrive until 9.20am. I would imagine Dr Craig placed cloth items on pool of blood to prevent him treading in it when he certified NB's death.
Other than the pool of blood by NB there was very little other blood on the kitchen floor. No swabs were taken of the victims' feet.
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CoA has Dr Craig, police surgeon, arriving at 8.10am and certifying all five deaths by 8.50am confirmed elsewhere. DC Bird, soc photographer, did not arrive until 9.20am. I would imagine Dr Craig placed cloth items on pool of blood to prevent him treading in it when he certified NB's death.
Other than the pool of blood by NB there was very little other blood on the kitchen floor. No swabs were taken of the victims' feet.
The blood was dry when police arrived the killer placed the items in the blood to soak the blood up. Buy hey why ever be realistic.
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The blood was dry when police arrived the killer placed the items in the blood to soak the blood up. Buy hey why ever be realistic.
Please provide evidence that the killer placed the cloth items on the pool of blood near NB's body.
NB was shot twice in the face and four times in the head. His head was found hanging forward and down. It is obvious blood would pool on the ground below where the poor man's head was located. There was no need for the killer to concern him/herself with the pool of blood in that area as it was not in his/her exit path. Dr Craig obviously needed to ascertain death which required close proximity to the body. Other than that pool of blood very little blood was found on the kitchen floor. DC Hammersley's trial testimony confirms he didn't take a detailed examination of the kitchen floor but describes a "very light" distribution of blood other than the pool found by NB:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=215
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
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Please provide evidence that the killer placed the cloth items on the pool of blood near NB's body.
NB was shot twice in the face and four times in the head. His head was found hanging forward and down. It is obvious blood would pool on the ground below where the poor man's head was located. There was no need for the killer to concern him/herself with the pool of blood in that area as it was not in his/her exit path. Dr Craig obviously needed to ascertain death which required close proximity to the body. Other than that pool of blood very little blood was found on the kitchen floor. DC Hammersley's trial testimony confirms he didn't take a detailed examination of the kitchen floor but describes a "very light" distribution of blood other than the pool found by NB:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=215
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
1) Police say the clothing/cushions were there when they found the body
2) The clothing/cushions soaked up blood these items were not placed on dry blood but rather wet blood because that is the only way they could soak up blood.
3) The blood was dry by the time police entered.
These 2 things combined means the killer is the only one who could have placed the items in the blood. Asserting the police lied and they are the ones who placed them there fails miserably. Not only did they have no reason to try to soak up dried blood, cloth does not absorb dry blood.
So all rational people with half a brain recognize the killer did it. Some reasons why the killer would do so I already enumerated.
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1) Police say the clothing/cushions were there when they found the body
2) The clothing/cushions soaked up blood these items were not placed on dry blood but rather wet blood because that is the only way they could soak up blood.
3) The blood was dry by the time police entered.
These 2 things combined means the killer is the only one who could have placed the items in the blood. Asserting the police lied and they are the ones who placed them there fails miserably. Not only did they have no reason to try to soak up dried blood, cloth does not absorb dry blood.
So all rational people with half a brain recognize the killer did it. Some reasons why the killer would do so I already enumerated.
Please provide documentary evidence ie W/S's, trial testimony, and expert evidence to support your assertions above.
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Please provide documentary evidence ie W/S's, trial testimony, and expert evidence to support your assertions above.
You post evidence where police say they placed the cushions there and that they had not been there at first. I don[t need to bother proving a negative.
While you are at it you prove how the blood could still have been wet after so many hours and you provide evidence it was wet. Which witnesses claimed it was still wet? none!
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You post evidence where police say they placed the cushions there and that they had not been there at first. I don[t need to bother proving a negative.
While you are at it you prove how the blood could still have been wet after so many hours and you provide evidence it was wet. Which witnesses claimed it was still wet? none!
Subtle difference Scipio. In my post #15 I state "I would imagine..." ie I'm not stating it as fact. You on the other hand in post #18 state "Police say..."
I dont need to provide any supporting evidence as unlike you I'm not claiming it as fact.
Please provide documentary evidence by way of W/S's, trial testimony etc to support your assertions of what the police said in connection with your posts above.
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Subtle difference Scipio. In my post #15 I state "I would imagine..." ie I'm not stating it as fact. You on the other hand in post #18 state "Police say..."
I dont need to provide any supporting evidence as unlike you I'm not claiming it as fact.
Please provide documentary evidence by way of W/S's, trial testimony etc to support your assertions of what the police said in connection with your posts above.
You would imagine the blood was still wet many hours after he was shot? Imagining it is a very good word for it...the Appeal Decision goes over which items the police moved in the kitchen so that alone should clue you in no police claim to have placed the cushions there.
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You would imagine the blood was still wet many hours after he was shot? Imagining it is a very good word for it...the Appeal Decision goes over which items the police moved in the kitchen so that alone should clue you in no police claim to have placed the cushions there.
Yes I am imagining Dr Craig placed the material/cloth items on the pool of blood as I dont have anything more reliable to go on. You obviously do as you have asserted that the police said they found the cusions on the wet blood so please provide their W/S's where they claim such or other documentary evidence.
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Yes I am imagining Dr Craig placed the material/cloth items on the pool of blood as I dont have anything more reliable to go on. You obviously do as you have asserted that the police said they found the cusions on the wet blood so please provide their W/S's where they claim such or other documentary evidence.
I said the blood was dry when police arrived because all the blood in the house was dry when police arrived. I said the police found the cushions in dry blood. The cushions had blood soak into them which means they were placed there while the blood was wet which means the killer did it. This comports with the police saying the cushions were found there when they entered and their denials of placing them there.
Craig placing cushions in dry blood so that he would not contaminate it makes no sense and they were placed in the blood while it was still wet anyway...
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On the blue forum you (anglolawyer) asked me the following:
"Why are there documents which someone declines to post? One of the reasons I registered here (or tried to register only to find I had already done so) was to enlarge my search for documents. There seem to be many crucial documents missing. I would particularly like to read transcripts of Bamber's and Mugford's trial evidence but I am sure there is much more. If Mike Tesko happens by this thread and reads this maybe he would explain why there has not been a full upload of all case-related material. Or maybe someone else knows."
Mike has no interest in posting all the evidence and leaving others to read the evidence and come to their own conclusions.
Mike has an agenda and only releases things that he feels he can twist to support his agenda. For that reason he refused to post the 2 sections of the Dickinson Report (and its attachments) that would be most interesting- the section pertaining to the evidence adduced at trial and the entire reinvestigation which makes clear his claim about Nevill's moderator being collected in September is a lie.
Mike cherry picks something he feels he can misrepresent and then posts it making false assertions about it. His MO is always the same.
His dual agenda is to garner attention and to trash police who he hates. He trashes them by pretending they framed Jeremy and manufactured evidence. He garners attention by trying to get people to beg him to post documents and getting people to worship him.
The other day he banned me from the site for being disrespectful to him instead of bowing to his lies. His goal is to simply post his lies unchallenged. My immediate offense was posting to lookout that while most believe don't trust Mike she does so she should ask him about something he posted (a document that he said dealt with whether the kitchen heating was on at the time of the murders).
He used that as a pretext so he could post his lies unabated. Most people on the site don't bother to challenge his garbage they just ignore him and a few like lookout, NGB and nugnug for example encourage him and say they trust him.
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Teskowski is an attention seeking f..kwit. It really is as simple as that.
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Teskowski is an attention seeking f..kwit. It really is as simple as that.
As we speak he is posting the same old disproved lies about Davidson saying the murder weapon had paint on it not the moderator though in fact he told COLP he never saw the moderator and overheard Elliott and Cook speaking of paint on a weapon so assumed they were talking about a rifle directly but a rifle other than the murder weapon because he personally helped collect the murder weapon and didn't see any paint on it.
He's incapable of telling the truth ever.
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Don't worry, anglolawyer. Teskowski won't put anything online that reinforces Bamber's guilt.
The court transcripts will be at the bottom of the pile of 50,000 documents in his shed (if they ever exist), and it'll take another 30 years before they willingly surface to the top, by which time mice and moths will have eaten them all away and Bamber popped his clogs.
The site's amusing for an occasional guffaw at his crackpot theories... and some atrocious grammar, but little else. Bamber washed his hands of MT many moons ago.
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I'm not so sure MT cherry picks but rather likes the drama of 'never-before-seen' material which only he has access to!
AL, The Blue forum has been in existence for some 5 years, if MT has been unable to find a way of uploading docs to a forum set up primarily to help a man he believes has suffered a grave miscarriage of justice this is perhaps quite telling &%+((£
NGB has always been helpful to MT in running the forum and I daresay would arrange some practical help, logistical and financial, if other material was available for uploading. How much would it cost to drop off docs to some provider of business solutions for high speed scanning? Once scanned the docs could be organised into some sort of manageable system. It should also be noted that it wasn't even MT who set up the archives and library on Blue. That task was carried out by posters Alias and Hartley. Prior to this documents were simply scattered about in threads.
JB's campaign team set up an electronic document management system and as far as I'm aware they hold most of the docs.
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Thanks for the heads up folks. It's no good, though. I now have my sights set on getting a piece of the $650M. I know it's only dollars but it's still money (just).
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Don't worry, anglolawyer. Teskowski won't put anything online that reinforces Bamber's guilt.
The court transcripts will be at the bottom of the pile of 50,000 documents in his shed (if they ever exist), and it'll take another 30 years before they willingly surface to the top, by which time mice and moths will have eaten them all away and Bamber popped his clogs.
The site's amusing for an occasional guffaw at his crackpot theories... and some atrocious grammar, but little else. Bamber washed his hands of MT many moons ago.
The defense filed to produce his trial transcripts for the 2002 appeal. It is doubtful they gave such to Mike...
He intentionally refused to post the portion of the Dickinson Report that addressed the trial and would not post the full testimony of Fletcher even.
When he feels he can distort something he posts it and does distort it like the misrepresentation that Dr Craig examined her body on the bed though in fact he said she was on the floor hidden by the bed and that Dr Craig said she had only 1 wound at the time though he nowhere said she had only a single wound but rather simply identified a single wound that supports his assertion she died from being shot. He did that will all the victims- he identified a single gunshot to support his proposition he didn't claim any of them solely had a single wound.
If more people would challenge his crap and chastise him- he can't ban everyone or he will have an empty site- then- then maybe he would change some of his ways.
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Thanks for the heads up folks. It's no good, though. I now have my sights set on getting a piece of the $650M. I know it's only dollars but it's still money (just).
Lol sterling equivalent £429,894,504.00p!
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I'm not so sure MT cherry picks but rather likes the drama of 'never-before-seen' material which only he has access to!
AL, The Blue forum has been in existence for some 5 years, if MT has been unable to find a way of uploading docs to a forum set up primarily to help a man he believes has suffered a grave miscarriage of justice this is perhaps quite telling &%+((£
NGB has always been helpful to MT in running the forum and I daresay would arrange some practical help, logistical and financial, if other material was available for uploading. How much would it cost to drop off docs to some provider of business solutions for high speed scanning? Once scanned the docs could be organised into some sort of manageable system. It should also be noted that it wasn't even MT who set up the archives and library on Blue. That task was carried out by posters Alias and Hartley. Prior to this documents were simply scattered about in threads.
JB's campaign team set up an electronic document management system and as far as I'm aware they hold most of the docs.
No Mike cherry picks. It is not some accident he posts isolated pages of documents like Fletcher's testimony instead of the full documents. It is not an accident he only will post isolated parts of the Dickinson Report.
Many documents on blue were posted on other websites years earlier. Harters saved them from those sites (like sleuthing for justice) and he ended up posting them on blue himself to challenge some of Mike's lies. For example Mike ended up posting all of the Dickinson Report on another website with the exception of the attachments (exhibits), the section on the reinvestigation and section on the trial. On blue Mike only posted about 6 pages of the report. He refused to post anymore so Harters posted everything he could.
The statement archive is simply an index. It is an index of which threads contain which documents and has hyperlinks so you can jump to the thread where those documents had been posted. Harters created the index and the mods liked it so much they moved it to its own section where only mods can alter it. Mods like Caroline have added to it as new statements are posted or any that were missed are come across.
I made a pest of myself in asking for them to add things I came across. I also repeatedly challenge Mike to post the 2 sections of the Dickinson report he refused to post as well as the entire transcript of testimony of certain people like Fletcher where he cherry picked which pages he would post. Naturally he refused saying he will do whatever he wants.
He won't scan documents anymore now he takes a photo from a distance with a phone making them more difficult to read.
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Thanks for the heads up folks. It's no good, though. I now have my sights set on getting a piece of the $650M. I know it's only dollars but it's still money (just).
What $650 million?
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What $650 million?
Too late for you, scip. You got busted out of town just as the going got good. Too bad. Maybe I'll remember you in my will. These are the film rights, I think. MT says he has a deal with JB under which he, MT, gets to cream off the profits on the film rights up to a measly $650,000,000. I aim to get me a piece of that.
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Too late for you, scip. You got busted out of town just as the going got good. Too bad. Maybe I'll remember you in my will. These are the film rights, I think. MT says he has a deal with JB under which he, MT, gets to cream off the profits on the film rights up to a measly $650,000,000. I aim to get me a piece of that.
Did you see this contract? Mike says a lot of contradictory things. For instance he originally said he was asked to be caretaker of Jeremy's documents and his holding them for anytime Jeremy wants them. Jeremy doesn't want him posting these documents anymore so now he claims they are his and he can do anything he wants with them he is not a mere custodian.
In any event Jeremy has as much chance of getting out of prison and thus being able to pursue a movie deal as I have of becoming a citizen of North Korea.
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Did you see this contract? Mike says a lot of contradictory things. For instance he originally said he was asked to be caretaker of Jeremy's documents and his holding them for anytime Jeremy wants them. Jeremy doesn't want him posting these documents anymore so now he claims they are his and he can do anything he wants with them he is not a mere custodian.
In any event Jeremy has as much chance of getting out of prison and thus being able to pursue a movie deal as I have of becoming a citizen of North Korea.
I assume it is an oral contract made on a basis of trust. A gentleman's word his his bond and all that. Good enough for me.
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No Mike cherry picks. It is not some accident he posts isolated pages of documents like Fletcher's testimony instead of the full documents. It is not an accident he only will post isolated parts of the Dickinson Report.
Many documents on blue were posted on other websites years earlier. Harters saved them from those sites (like sleuthing for justice) and he ended up posting them on blue himself to challenge some of Mike's lies. For example Mike ended up posting all of the Dickinson Report on another website with the exception of the attachments (exhibits), the section on the reinvestigation and section on the trial. On blue Mike only posted about 6 pages of the report. He refused to post anymore so Harters posted everything he could.
The statement archive is simply an index. It is an index of which threads contain which documents and has hyperlinks so you can jump to the thread where those documents had been posted. Harters created the index and the mods liked it so much they moved it to its own section where only mods can alter it. Mods like Caroline have added to it as new statements are posted or any that were missed are come across.
I made a pest of myself in asking for them to add things I came across. I also repeatedly challenge Mike to post the 2 sections of the Dickinson report he refused to post as well as the entire transcript of testimony of certain people like Fletcher where he cherry picked which pages he would post. Naturally he refused saying he will do whatever he wants.
He won't scan documents anymore now he takes a photo from a distance with a phone making them more difficult to read.
I see little difference between yourself and MT. Eg you cut and pace snippets of docs such as the following. I've asked you loads of times to upload links or the complete doc so we can check the source. The following doc that starts "I now want to look at..." appears to lack autheticity for many reasons:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6704.msg286229#msg286229
You and Mike both get verbally aggressive with anyone who disagrees with you. There's nothing moderate about either of you. You're both at the extreme ends of the spectrum.
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I see little difference between yourself and MT. Eg you cut and pace snippets of docs such as the following. I've asked you loads of times to upload links or the complete doc so we can check the source. The following doc that starts "I now want to look at..." appears to lack autheticity for many reasons:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6704.msg286229#msg286229
You and Mike both get verbally aggressive with anyone who disagrees with you. There's nothing moderate about either of you. You're both at the extreme ends of the spectrum.
Why should I post full documents that are already posted? That you didn't bother to read them while you were on blue before getting banned is your problem not mine. It just shows that you made up your mind about this case before looking at the relevant evidence and chose not to bother trying to look for the relevant evidence though some of it was posted.
You made false claims and I posted the RELEVANT section of documents that proved such. It is no different than you quoting 1 paragraph from the COA decision instead of posting the entire thing.
Mike cherry picks in an effort to conceal that he is lying. He distorts what the sources actually claim. There is nothing else in Lincoln's report about the blood on the rifle I posted the full section pertaining to such and that is what we were debating. It clearly said there was blood on the stock thus refuting your claim there was none on it. It is that simple.
Mike also makes up absurd lies such as his claim that Ewen Smith told him that he spoke to Dr. Craig and Dr Craig told him Sheila was on the bed when he examined her and that Ewen smith had photos of Sheila on the bed taken by police which Mike stole and mailed to Jeremy but prison authorities seized them before Jeremy could receive them. Then there are his lies about meeting secret informants and secret forensic experts...
You ignore anything in your own sources that refute what you choose to argue and thus contradict what your very own sources assert. You take generalized claims and twist them instead of going with information specific to the very issue at hand. For instance to take a worthless generalized claim that GSR will be more pronounced on the crook support arm when one uses a longgun ignoring the specific evidence posted about the exact weapon used. Then to make matters worse you posted an ordinary video claiming it showed no GSR is deposited on the shooter though it didn't use a camera capable of capturing the GSR plume.
You ignore the evidence that location is the key to whether drawback will occur from a contact shot and keep making up the false claim only a shot to the head can result in drawback from a 22LR even though you have no source that states this because it is untrue and indeed if it were true the defense would have had experts argue such to the courts.
You make up your own things much like Mike does. You are much more like Mike than I will ever be...
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Thanks for the heads up folks. It's no good, though. I now have my sights set on getting a piece of the $650M. I know it's only dollars but it's still money (just).
Easy, Tiger! Just in case you're looking at yachts (or nellycopters) you need to know that when things go quiet on the Bamber front, Mike has 2-way conversations with Princess Diana, the devil, Keith Bennett, Madeleine McCann, and his dog Misty (Border Collie and part-time oncologist).
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Easy, Tiger! Just in case you're looking at yachts (or nellycopters) you need to know that when things go quiet on the Bamber front, Mike has 2-way conversations with Princess Diana, the devil, Keith Bennett, Madeleine McCann, and his dog Misty (Border Collie and part-time oncologist).
I bet that's just a ruse to ward off money-grubbing opportunists. It won't work with me.
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Why should I post full documents that are already posted? That you didn't bother to read them while you were on blue before getting banned is your problem not mine. It just shows that you made up your mind about this case before looking at the relevant evidence and chose not to bother trying to look for the relevant evidence though some of it was posted.
You made false claims and I posted the RELEVANT section of documents that proved such. It is no different than you quoting 1 paragraph from the COA decision instead of posting the entire thing.
Mike cherry picks in an effort to conceal that he is lying. He distorts what the sources actually claim. There is nothing else in Lincoln's report about the blood on the rifle I posted the full section pertaining to such and that is what we were debating. It clearly said there was blood on the stock thus refuting your claim there was none on it. It is that simple.
Mike also makes up absurd lies such as his claim that Ewen Smith told him that he spoke to Dr. Craig and Dr Craig told him Sheila was on the bed when he examined her and that Ewen smith had photos of Sheila on the bed taken by police which Mike stole and mailed to Jeremy but prison authorities seized them before Jeremy could receive them. Then there are his lies about meeting secret informants and secret forensic experts...
You ignore anything in your own sources that refute what you choose to argue and thus contradict what your very own sources assert. You take generalized claims and twist them instead of going with information specific to the very issue at hand. For instance to take a worthless generalized claim that GSR will be more pronounced on the crook support arm when one uses a longgun ignoring the specific evidence posted about the exact weapon used. Then to make matters worse you posted an ordinary video claiming it showed no GSR is deposited on the shooter though it didn't use a camera capable of capturing the GSR plume.
You ignore the evidence that location is the key to whether drawback will occur from a contact shot and keep making up the false claim only a shot to the head can result in drawback from a 22LR even though you have no source that states this because it is untrue and indeed if it were true the defense would have had experts argue such to the courts.
You make up your own things much like Mike does. You are much more like Mike than I will ever be...
The only people in the innocent camp who take MT seriously are the likes of Lookout, and even she seems to be seeing the light, other than that he is basically ignored and written off as a crank. The same applies to yourself with the guilty camp.
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1) Police say the clothing/cushions were there when they found the body
2) The clothing/cushions soaked up blood these items were not placed on dry blood but rather wet blood because that is the only way they could soak up blood.
3) The blood was dry by the time police entered.
These 2 things combined means the killer is the only one who could have placed the items in the blood. Asserting the police lied and they are the ones who placed them there fails miserably. Not only did they have no reason to try to soak up dried blood, cloth does not absorb dry blood.
So all rational people with half a brain recognize the killer did it. Some reasons why the killer would do so I already enumerated.
I will ask for a second time. Please post the relevant W/S's, or other documentary evidence, where the police state the clothes and cushions were found in the pool of blood by NB.
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I assume it is an oral contract made on a basis of trust. A gentleman's word his his bond and all that. Good enough for me.
You know about that pesky thing known as the Statute of Frauds right?
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I will ask for a second time. Please post the relevant W/S's, or other documentary evidence, where the police state the clothes and cushions were found in the pool of blood by NB.
You said Craig did it so you should have a statement where he admitted to doing it. But he wrote the following in his statements with regard to what he saw besides Nevill's body: "I noted that the room was in considerable disarray with a quantity of broken crockery on the floor, stools were upturned, there were items of clothing lying about on the floor and on the staircase leading out in the kitchen. The mats were scuffled and riffles and the telephone was off the hook."
The police say they looked at the photos and didn't notice anything different than what they saw when they entered. They described the few things they touched. DO you have anything that says any cop admitted to moving the cushions and placing them there? No because none claimed they did.
The raid team statements are on this site. Which of them says they moved cushions to the spot? None.
Ground 2 of the 2002 Appeal goes over crime scene disturbance in the kitchen you only pay attention to the Appeal when you think you can use it to your advantage:
"Mr Turner draws our attention to the fact that on the 19 September 1985 all the police officers who attended at the scene were summoned to attend at Witham Police Station for a round the table conference with Investigating Officers. On the following day, 20 September 1985, PC Delgado made a further statement in which he said:
"in the kitchen by the doorway to the hall were two stools which were laying down on the floor blocking a covering position into the hall, these stools were moved to near the kitchen table. In the hallway the door to the cellar was forced open to allow access, it appeared the door was stuck with old paint and had not been opened for some time. PC Collins attempted to go down the cellar stairs, which gave way beneath him. A window in the dining room was unlocked and opened to allow an escape route if needed, this window was later shut and secured. The door to the bedroom opposite the children's room was locked and this was forced to allow access".
On 30 September PC Collins made a second statement in which he said:
"I moved two kitchen stools which were laying down near to the hallway entrance. I moved these stools about 2 or 3 feet but left them in a similar position as they were found. I moved them to enable me to carry on my search of the house as safe as possible. In the hallway a cellar door was forced open, the door appeared to have not been open for a long time. I opened a window in the dining room which I first had to unlock by moving a small catch to allow an escape route for an officer I had left to cover the stairway from the doorway of the dining room. To my knowledge nothing else was moved or disturbed."
We take the statements of PC Collins and PC Delgado as clear statements that apart from moving two stools they moved no other furniture. The statements from some 10 other TFG officers indicate that there was no other movement of furniture and certainly no spillage of sugar attributable to any officer. On the other hand the crime scene was disturbed in the sense that the door to the cellar was forced, the cellar stairs gave way, the dining room window was unlocked and opened and a bedroom door was forced.
...
The nearest Mr Turner came to suggesting a basis for Mr Cook to give evidence about these matters was that the photographs did not realistically or accurately depict the state of the kitchen. We do not accept that proposition. The photographs are of excellent quality and accurately depict the scene of the crime."
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The photos that they say accurately reflect the scene showed the cushions there.
The court went through what limited movement the raid team engaged in and none say they moved any cushions or that the cushions had not been there when they entered. The burden is on you to establish they were placed there by someone prior to the crime scene personnel arriving but you have zero evidence because the killer is the one who put the cushions there.
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You said Craig did it so you should have a statement where he admitted to doing it. But he wrote the following in his statements with regard to what he saw besides Nevill's body: "I noted that the room was in considerable disarray with a quantity of broken crockery on the floor, stools were upturned, there were items of clothing lying about on the floor and on the staircase leading out in the kitchen. The mats were scuffled and riffles and the telephone was off the hook."
The police say they looked at the photos and didn't notice anything different than what they saw when they entered. They described the few things they touched. DO you have anything that says any cop admitted to moving the cushions and placing them there? No because none claimed they did.
The raid team statements are on this site. Which of them says they moved cushions to the spot? None.
Ground 2 of the 2002 Appeal goes over crime scene disturbance in the kitchen you only pay attention to the Appeal when you think you can use it to your advantage:
"Mr Turner draws our attention to the fact that on the 19 September 1985 all the police officers who attended at the scene were summoned to attend at Witham Police Station for a round the table conference with Investigating Officers. On the following day, 20 September 1985, PC Delgado made a further statement in which he said:
"in the kitchen by the doorway to the hall were two stools which were laying down on the floor blocking a covering position into the hall, these stools were moved to near the kitchen table. In the hallway the door to the cellar was forced open to allow access, it appeared the door was stuck with old paint and had not been opened for some time. PC Collins attempted to go down the cellar stairs, which gave way beneath him. A window in the dining room was unlocked and opened to allow an escape route if needed, this window was later shut and secured. The door to the bedroom opposite the children's room was locked and this was forced to allow access".
On 30 September PC Collins made a second statement in which he said:
"I moved two kitchen stools which were laying down near to the hallway entrance. I moved these stools about 2 or 3 feet but left them in a similar position as they were found. I moved them to enable me to carry on my search of the house as safe as possible. In the hallway a cellar door was forced open, the door appeared to have not been open for a long time. I opened a window in the dining room which I first had to unlock by moving a small catch to allow an escape route for an officer I had left to cover the stairway from the doorway of the dining room. To my knowledge nothing else was moved or disturbed."
We take the statements of PC Collins and PC Delgado as clear statements that apart from moving two stools they moved no other furniture. The statements from some 10 other TFG officers indicate that there was no other movement of furniture and certainly no spillage of sugar attributable to any officer. On the other hand the crime scene was disturbed in the sense that the door to the cellar was forced, the cellar stairs gave way, the dining room window was unlocked and opened and a bedroom door was forced.
...
The nearest Mr Turner came to suggesting a basis for Mr Cook to give evidence about these matters was that the photographs did not realistically or accurately depict the state of the kitchen. We do not accept that proposition. The photographs are of excellent quality and accurately depict the scene of the crime."
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The photos that they say accurately reflect the scene showed the cushions there.
The court went through what limited movement the raid team engaged in and none say they moved any cushions or that the cushions had not been there when they entered. The burden is on you to establish they were placed there by someone prior to the crime scene personnel arriving but you have zero evidence because the killer is the one who put the cushions there.
I didn't say Dr Craig said anything I said I imagined he placed the cushions and clothes in the pool of blood as this seems the most logical conclusion since he needed to move in close to NB to confirm death and he would not want to step in a pool of blood.
If you want to assert the police said the killer placed the cushions and clothes on the pool of blood then you should be able to retrieve their W/S's to confirm such. The fact is you're unable to as to the best of my knowledge no one has ever claimed such.
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JB put the trousers and cushions there so he could step nimbly past to get nearer to the AGA and dispose of his blood-stained gloves in its combustion chamber, before putting the kettle on for a brew to celebrate a job well done.
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I didn't say Dr Craig said anything I said I imagined he placed the cushions and clothes in the pool of blood as this seems the most logical conclusion since he needed to move in close to NB to confirm death and he would not want to step in a pool of blood.
If you want to assert the police said the killer placed the cushions and clothes on the pool of blood then you should be able to retrieve their W/S's to confirm such. The fact is you're unable to as to the best of my knowledge no one has ever claimed such.
It's not a logical conclusion it makes no sense. The blood was dry. Why would he need to place items over dry blood to prevent the blood from getting on him?
The killer placed the items there in order to prevent the blood from flowing to his shoes and thus leaving prints in the blood and/or contain the blood flow because if the floor was full of blood but Sheila's prints were not found in such blood it could tell police that someone else did it. If the flow is contained as it was BECAUSE of these items then it eliminates such evidentiary problems.
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It's not a logical conclusion it makes no sense. The blood was dry. Why would he need to place items over dry blood to prevent the blood from getting on him?
The killer placed the items there in order to prevent the blood from flowing to his shoes and thus leaving prints in the blood and/or contain the blood flow because if the floor was full of blood but Sheila's prints were not found in such blood it could tell police that someone else did it. If the flow is contained as it was BECAUSE of these items then it eliminates such evidentiary problems.
There's no evidence the killer placed the cushions and the clothes on the pool of blood near NB. Other than this pool of blood there was very little blood elsewhere on the kitchen floor. Read DC Hammersley's trial testimony:
Q: Did you make a detailed examination of the kitchen to see what blood marks were there or not?
A: No I didn't make a detailed examination.
Q: What would you say about the distribution of blood?
A: There would appear to have been a distribution of blood, not heavy. It seemed very light not patterned
Q: Apart from the pool that ----
A: Apart from that pool in photograph 6 yes.
If the killer placed the cushions and clothes on the pool of blood then it would have soaked up the blood and there would be no pool of blood to take a photograph of.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=215
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217
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The trousers did soak up most of the wet blood... that's why there's a large stain on them! 8((()*/
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Having studied Nevill's strangely balanced position again, I think that his body rigidity was the result of instantaneous rigor which prevented him keeling over onto the floor immediately after collapsing astride the chair back...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm)
ETA:... after receiving four bullets to his head.
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The trousers did soak up most of the wet blood... that's why there's a large stain on them! 8((()*/
PC Delgado:
"There were severe head injuries and a pool of blood on the floor"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=72
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PC Delgado:
"There were severe head injuries and a pool of blood on the floor"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=72 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=72)
He was looking at the part in front of and not covered by the trousers. A pool of blood formed several hours before can be interpreted as wet if it's plentiful and has only partially dried.
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He was looking at the part in front of and not covered by the trousers. A pool of blood formed several hours before can be interpreted as wet if it's plentiful and has only partially dried.
None of the raid team w/s's make ref to the cushions and trousers placed on the blood.
Were the items sent for forensic analysis?
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None of the raid team w/s's make ref to the cushions and trousers placed on the blood.
Were the items sent for forensic analysis?
"There was a large puddle of blood next to this container".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=145
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"There was a large puddle of blood next to this container".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=145
"and there was a pool of blood near the base of the coal scuttle".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=247
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None of the raid team w/s's make ref to the cushions and trousers placed on the blood.
Were the items sent for forensic analysis?
All those 50,000 documents need removing from MT's "ownership" and put into safe, unbiased hands, for us to discover what was sent where... amongst many, many other things.
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It is most frustrating that the case papers are not out there. That fact allows far too much scope for inaccuracy and myth to muddy the waters, making proper analysis basically impossible, or at best highly unsatisfactory. The case is magnetic and repellent at the same time because of this.
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None of the raid team w/s's make ref to the cushions and trousers placed on the blood.
Were the items sent for forensic analysis?
They don't make mention of the items in their statements because there was no reason to. If they oved them there then in that case they would have a reason to mention them. They were asked to note which items they moved but didn't mention these items because they didn't move them. They were shown the photos in September and asked if anything was different than they recall. None of them identified the items as not being there when they entered.
Craig expressly mentions the ruffled items being around but says nothing about moving them there because why would he? You PRETEND: 1) the blood was still wet and flowing hours later; 2) that this made up flowing wet blood needed to be contained in order to get close enough to Nevill to see the wounds in his head and be able to declare him dead.
Using these absurd claims you then RIDICULOUSLY say there is no evidence the killer put the items there. You are completely delusional but we already knew that because there is no other way to think Jeremy is innocent.
Why would they have the lab test these items? Nevill's blood was in the pool next to it there was no question the blood these materials soaked up was Nevill's. here was no reason to test it just like there was no reason to test the pool of blood next to Sheila, her body is clearly where such blood leaked from.