Author Topic: Ritual dressing  (Read 18714 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2015, 06:32:07 PM »
I will ask for a second time.  Please post the relevant W/S's, or other documentary evidence, where the police state the clothes and cushions were found in the pool of blood by NB.

You said Craig did it so you should have a statement where he admitted to doing it.  But he wrote the following in his statements with regard to what he saw besides Nevill's body: "I noted that the room was in considerable disarray with a quantity of broken crockery on the floor, stools were upturned, there were items of clothing lying about on the floor and on the staircase leading out in the kitchen. The mats were scuffled and riffles and the telephone was off the hook."

The police say they looked at the photos and didn't notice anything different than what they saw when they entered.  They described the few things they touched.  DO you have anything that says any cop admitted to moving the cushions and placing them there?  No because none claimed they did.

The raid team statements are on this site.  Which of them says they moved cushions to the spot?  None.

Ground 2 of the 2002 Appeal goes over crime scene disturbance in the kitchen you only pay attention to the Appeal when you think you can use it to your advantage:


"Mr Turner draws our attention to the fact that on the 19 September 1985 all the police officers who attended at the scene were summoned to attend at Witham Police Station for a round the table conference with Investigating Officers. On the following day, 20 September 1985, PC Delgado made a further statement in which he said:

"in the kitchen by the doorway to the hall were two stools which were laying down on the floor blocking a covering position into the hall, these stools were moved to near the kitchen table. In the hallway the door to the cellar was forced open to allow access, it appeared the door was stuck with old paint and had not been opened for some time. PC Collins attempted to go down the cellar stairs, which gave way beneath him. A window in the dining room was unlocked and opened to allow an escape route if needed, this window was later shut and secured. The door to the bedroom opposite the children's room was locked and this was forced to allow access".
On 30 September PC Collins made a second statement in which he said:

"I moved two kitchen stools which were laying down near to the hallway entrance. I moved these stools about 2 or 3 feet but left them in a similar position as they were found. I moved them to enable me to carry on my search of the house as safe as possible. In the hallway a cellar door was forced open, the door appeared to have not been open for a long time. I opened a window in the dining room which I first had to unlock by moving a small catch to allow an escape route for an officer I had left to cover the stairway from the doorway of the dining room. To my knowledge nothing else was moved or disturbed."
 
We take the statements of PC Collins and PC Delgado as clear statements that apart from moving two stools they moved no other furniture. The statements from some 10 other TFG officers indicate that there was no other movement of furniture and certainly no spillage of sugar attributable to any officer. On the other hand the crime scene was disturbed in the sense that the door to the cellar was forced, the cellar stairs gave way, the dining room window was unlocked and opened and a bedroom door was forced.

...

The nearest Mr Turner came to suggesting a basis for Mr Cook to give evidence about these matters was that the photographs did not realistically or accurately depict the state of the kitchen. We do not accept that proposition. The photographs are of excellent quality and accurately depict the scene of the crime."
------------
The photos that they say accurately reflect the scene showed the cushions there.

The court went through what limited movement the raid team engaged in and none say they moved any cushions or that the cushions had not been there when they entered.  The burden is on you to establish they were placed there by someone prior to the crime scene personnel arriving but you have zero evidence because the killer is the one who put the cushions there.


“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2015, 07:35:39 PM »
You said Craig did it so you should have a statement where he admitted to doing it.  But he wrote the following in his statements with regard to what he saw besides Nevill's body: "I noted that the room was in considerable disarray with a quantity of broken crockery on the floor, stools were upturned, there were items of clothing lying about on the floor and on the staircase leading out in the kitchen. The mats were scuffled and riffles and the telephone was off the hook."

The police say they looked at the photos and didn't notice anything different than what they saw when they entered.  They described the few things they touched.  DO you have anything that says any cop admitted to moving the cushions and placing them there?  No because none claimed they did.

The raid team statements are on this site.  Which of them says they moved cushions to the spot?  None.

Ground 2 of the 2002 Appeal goes over crime scene disturbance in the kitchen you only pay attention to the Appeal when you think you can use it to your advantage:


"Mr Turner draws our attention to the fact that on the 19 September 1985 all the police officers who attended at the scene were summoned to attend at Witham Police Station for a round the table conference with Investigating Officers. On the following day, 20 September 1985, PC Delgado made a further statement in which he said:

"in the kitchen by the doorway to the hall were two stools which were laying down on the floor blocking a covering position into the hall, these stools were moved to near the kitchen table. In the hallway the door to the cellar was forced open to allow access, it appeared the door was stuck with old paint and had not been opened for some time. PC Collins attempted to go down the cellar stairs, which gave way beneath him. A window in the dining room was unlocked and opened to allow an escape route if needed, this window was later shut and secured. The door to the bedroom opposite the children's room was locked and this was forced to allow access".
On 30 September PC Collins made a second statement in which he said:

"I moved two kitchen stools which were laying down near to the hallway entrance. I moved these stools about 2 or 3 feet but left them in a similar position as they were found. I moved them to enable me to carry on my search of the house as safe as possible. In the hallway a cellar door was forced open, the door appeared to have not been open for a long time. I opened a window in the dining room which I first had to unlock by moving a small catch to allow an escape route for an officer I had left to cover the stairway from the doorway of the dining room. To my knowledge nothing else was moved or disturbed."
 
We take the statements of PC Collins and PC Delgado as clear statements that apart from moving two stools they moved no other furniture. The statements from some 10 other TFG officers indicate that there was no other movement of furniture and certainly no spillage of sugar attributable to any officer. On the other hand the crime scene was disturbed in the sense that the door to the cellar was forced, the cellar stairs gave way, the dining room window was unlocked and opened and a bedroom door was forced.

...

The nearest Mr Turner came to suggesting a basis for Mr Cook to give evidence about these matters was that the photographs did not realistically or accurately depict the state of the kitchen. We do not accept that proposition. The photographs are of excellent quality and accurately depict the scene of the crime."
------------
The photos that they say accurately reflect the scene showed the cushions there.

The court went through what limited movement the raid team engaged in and none say they moved any cushions or that the cushions had not been there when they entered.  The burden is on you to establish they were placed there by someone prior to the crime scene personnel arriving but you have zero evidence because the killer is the one who put the cushions there.

I didn't say Dr Craig said anything I said I imagined he placed the cushions and clothes in the pool of blood as this seems the most logical conclusion since he needed to move in close to NB to confirm death and he would not want to step in a pool of blood.

If you want to assert the police said the killer placed the cushions and clothes on the pool of blood then you should be able to retrieve their W/S's to confirm such.  The fact is you're unable to as to the best of my knowledge no one has ever claimed such.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 08:02:00 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2015, 08:05:18 PM »
JB put the trousers and cushions there so he could step nimbly past to get nearer to the AGA and dispose of his blood-stained gloves in its combustion chamber, before putting the kettle on for a brew to celebrate a job well done.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2015, 12:31:51 AM »
I didn't say Dr Craig said anything I said I imagined he placed the cushions and clothes in the pool of blood as this seems the most logical conclusion since he needed to move in close to NB to confirm death and he would not want to step in a pool of blood.

If you want to assert the police said the killer placed the cushions and clothes on the pool of blood then you should be able to retrieve their W/S's to confirm such.  The fact is you're unable to as to the best of my knowledge no one has ever claimed such.

It's not a logical conclusion it makes no sense. The blood was dry.  Why would he need to place items over dry blood to prevent the blood from getting on him?

The killer placed the items there in order to prevent the blood from flowing to his shoes and thus leaving prints in the blood and/or contain the blood flow because if the floor was full of blood but Sheila's prints were not found in such blood it could tell police that someone else did it.  If the flow is contained as it was BECAUSE of these items then it eliminates such evidentiary problems. 



“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2015, 07:19:28 AM »
It's not a logical conclusion it makes no sense. The blood was dry.  Why would he need to place items over dry blood to prevent the blood from getting on him?

The killer placed the items there in order to prevent the blood from flowing to his shoes and thus leaving prints in the blood and/or contain the blood flow because if the floor was full of blood but Sheila's prints were not found in such blood it could tell police that someone else did it.  If the flow is contained as it was BECAUSE of these items then it eliminates such evidentiary problems.

There's no evidence the killer placed the cushions and the clothes on the pool of blood near NB.  Other than this pool of blood there was very little blood elsewhere on the kitchen floor.  Read DC Hammersley's trial testimony:

Q:  Did you make a detailed examination of the kitchen to see what blood marks were there or not?

A:  No I didn't make a detailed examination.

Q:  What would you say about the distribution of blood?

A:  There would appear to have been a distribution of blood, not heavy.  It seemed very light not patterned

Q:  Apart from the pool that ----

A:  Apart from that pool in photograph 6 yes.

If the killer placed the cushions and clothes on the pool of blood then it would have soaked up the blood and there would be no pool of blood to take a photograph of. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=215

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=217

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2015, 07:41:30 AM »
The trousers did soak up most of the wet blood... that's why there's a large stain on them!  8((()*/
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Myster

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2015, 07:52:26 AM »
Having studied Nevill's strangely balanced position again, I think that his body rigidity was the result of instantaneous rigor which prevented him keeling over onto the floor immediately after collapsing astride the chair back...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

ETA:... after receiving four bullets to his head.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 07:56:04 AM by Myster »
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2015, 08:23:48 AM »
The trousers did soak up most of the wet blood... that's why there's a large stain on them!  8((()*/

PC Delgado:

"There were severe head injuries and a pool of blood on the floor"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=72
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2015, 08:42:00 AM »
PC Delgado:

"There were severe head injuries and a pool of blood on the floor"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=154.0;attach=72

He was looking at the part in front of and not covered by the trousers.  A pool of blood formed several hours before can be interpreted as wet if it's plentiful and has only partially dried.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2015, 08:50:01 AM »

He was looking at the part in front of and not covered by the trousers.  A pool of blood formed several hours before can be interpreted as wet if it's plentiful and has only partially dried.

None of the raid team w/s's make ref to the cushions and trousers placed on the blood. 

Were the items sent for forensic analysis?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2015, 08:55:25 AM »
None of the raid team w/s's make ref to the cushions and trousers placed on the blood. 

Were the items sent for forensic analysis?

"There was a large puddle of blood next to this container".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=145


Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2015, 09:00:20 AM »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2015, 09:04:21 AM »
None of the raid team w/s's make ref to the cushions and trousers placed on the blood. 

Were the items sent for forensic analysis?

All those 50,000 documents need removing from MT's "ownership" and put into safe, unbiased hands, for us to discover what was sent where... amongst many, many other things.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline anglolawyer

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2015, 11:09:47 AM »
It is most frustrating that the case papers are not out there.   That fact allows far too much scope for inaccuracy and myth to muddy the waters, making proper analysis basically impossible, or at best highly unsatisfactory.   The case is magnetic and repellent at the same time because of this.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Ritual dressing
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2015, 03:13:43 PM »
None of the raid team w/s's make ref to the cushions and trousers placed on the blood. 

Were the items sent for forensic analysis?

They don't make mention of the items in their statements because there was no reason to.  If they oved them there then in that case they would have a reason to mention them.  They were asked to note which items they moved but didn't mention these items because they didn't move them.  They were shown the photos in September and asked if anything was different than they recall. None of them identified the items as not being there when they entered.

Craig expressly mentions the ruffled items being around but says nothing about moving them there because why would he?  You PRETEND: 1) the blood was still wet and flowing hours later; 2) that this made up flowing wet blood needed to be contained in order to get close enough to Nevill to see the wounds in his head and be able to declare him dead.

Using these absurd claims you then RIDICULOUSLY say there is no evidence the killer put the items there.  You are completely delusional but we already knew that because there is no other way to think Jeremy is innocent.

Why would they have the lab test these items?  Nevill's blood was in the pool next to it there was no question the blood these materials soaked up was Nevill's.  here was no reason to test it just like there was no reason to test the pool of blood next to Sheila, her body is clearly where such blood leaked from.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 03:16:32 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli