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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on July 10, 2016, 08:05:10 AM
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I noticed on a sister forum (Shining in Luz??) that there was blood found on the road about 500 meters from the Ocean Club. Unfortunately I didn't record the location.
Is anyone aware of an accident?
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Google Maps link https://goo.gl/maps/NBKwSDFmHEr
Examination initiated on 06 May 2007
The report on the collection of blood vestiges carried out on 06 May 2007, from the wall, next to the main entrance of Quinta dos Figos, situated on Rua 1 de Maio, in Praia da Luz, in Lagos, is requested.
Observations and Analyses Made
A team from the Crime Scene section of the Scientific Police Laboratory, composed of the undersigned officers, after a request made by the Portimao DIC of the Policia Judiciaria, went to Rua 1 de Maio, in Praia da Luz, in Lagos, where we were requested to proceed to collect various stains, supposedly haematic that were on the wall and the ground in that street. This collection was within the area of investigation into the disappearance of an English girl.
Photo 1: Map of the scene showing the entrance to Quinta dos Figos encircled in red.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P7/07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1812.jpg)
1811.jpg
Upon the team's arrival at the scene it was reported to us by the inspectors present that the supposed blood stains were found on a wall and on the ground close to the wall, next to main entrance of Quinta dos Figos
Photo 2 : Panoramic view of the site where the supposed blood stains were found.
Photos 3 , 4 and 5: Entrance to the Quinta dos Figos where eventual biological vestiges were found and detail of the plaque with the name of the property and of the plaque with the street name.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P7/07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1813.jpg)
1812.jpg
Photo 6: Shot of the area of the Quinta dos Figos wall where the supposed blood stains were found.
From the observation made of the wall and its proximities various stains were detected with a brownish red colour which suggested that they could be of haematic origin. These were submitted to tests to detect peroxide existing in the blood using the Kastle-Mayer test, in both cases the reactions were positive.
The stain referred to as vestige no. 3 was further submitted for testing to determine whether the blood was of animal origin, but reacted positively as being human blood.
The blood stains mentioned previously were separated by zones and referenced as vestige no. 1 those being the stains found on the gravel ground, vestiges no. 2 being the blood stains that were found on top of the wall and vestige no. 3 as being the stains that were found on the ground in the area where there cobblestones.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P7/07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1814.jpg)
1813.jpg
Photo 7: Shot of vestiges 1, 2 and 3.
Photos 8 and 9: Detail of vestige 1
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P7/07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1815.jpg)
1814.jpg
Photos 10 and 11: Detail of vestige 2.
Photos 12 and 13: Detail of vestige 3
Photo 14: Indicator test of the presence of human blood
1815.jpg
The collection of the vestiges indicated as vestiges nos. 1, 2 and 3 was begun using slightly moistened swabs, in accordance with the procedures of the Scientific Police Laboratory's Biology Area.
Conclusion:
Upon the request of the Portimao DIC present at the site, collection was made of 3 swabs containing blood vestiges, referred to in this report as vestiges nos. 1,2 and 3, which were delivered to the Biology Area, by means of delivery guide no. 189/2007 - CR/L, copy of which is annexed, in order to be preserved for further/eventual forensic examinations.
The test for the determination of animal species carried out on vestige 3 was placed in an evidence bag series A no. 022917 and delivered to the Portimao DIC.
Lisbon, 31st May 2007.
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I noticed on a sister forum (Shining in Luz??) that there was blood found on the road about 500 meters from the Ocean Club. Unfortunately I didn't record the location.
Is anyone aware of an accident?
On Rua 1 Maio, about 400 metres north from Rua do Ramalhete
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On Rua 1 Maio, about 400 metres north from Rua do Ramalhete
How did you find that out Pegasus ?
Which side of the road ?
And precisely where?
Thanks in anticipation.
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How did you find that out Pegasus ?
Which side of the road ?
And precisely where?
Thanks in anticipation.
In the files, east side, near the gateway just south of the roundabout. Processos p1810-1818
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On Rua 1 Maio, about 400 metres north from Rua do Ramalhete
Has anyone looked this location up on Google Earth?
So that would make it less than 500 meters from the Ocean Club resort.
A 3-4 year old could wander that far no problem.
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In the files, east side, near the gateway just south of the roundabout. Processos p1810-1818
Could someone please help me find the text to the above pages in the file?
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Has anyone looked this location up on Google Earth?
So that would make it less than 500 meters from the Ocean Club resort.
A 3-4 year old could wander that far no problem.
Yep I have looked it up on GE. Yep, I have been there.
From memory, up a long steep hill.
And if she looked to the left as she left Rua Aghostinho de Silva then she would see the sea and it was downhill. Kids love the sea and all that is associated with it. She had been there with her parents too.
Why would a little girl walk away from the sea, from places her parents might be .... and go uphill in a direction that she didn't know?
Sorry Robitty, but it doesn't gel .
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Yep I have looked it up on GE. Yep, I have been there.
From memory, up a long steep hill.
And if she looked to the left as she left Rua Aghostinho de Silva then she would see the sea and it was downhill. Kids love the sea and all that is associated with it. She had been there with her parents too.
Why would a little girl walk away from the sea, from places her parents might be .... and go uphill in a direction that she didn't know?
Sorry Robitty, but it doesn't gel .
I wasn't implying the car accident happened to Madeleine but someone else's little girl. We have Madeleine under observation for most of the time on that night in the New Theory.
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Could someone please help me find the text to the above pages in the file?
pages 1810-1818
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm#pf1810
"... From the observation made of the wall and its proximities various stains were detected with a brownish red colour which suggested that they could be of haematic origin. These were submitted to tests to detect peroxide existing in the blood using the Kastle-Mayer test, in both cases the reactions were positive. The stain referred to as vestige no. 3 was further submitted for testing to determine whether the blood was of animal origin, but reacted positively as being human blood..."
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The route from Apartment 5a to the entrance to Quinta dos Figos, a distance of 600 metres.
(http://i.imgur.com/aD6PEi4.jpg)
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In the files, east side, near the gateway just south of the roundabout. Processos p1810-1818
Thanks Pegasus
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Test done on the blood samples:
The present inquiry is in relation to the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May from P da L.
The English authorities in possession of elements collected from the family home in Leicestershire, which are being examined in an unidentified laboratory, traced the girl's DNA profile, in annex to this document.
As it is necessary to the investigation we request the following:
1. Whether in the tests done by the INML Madeleine's profile was established?
2. In the case of a positive answer to point 1, that it should be determined whether the girl is the daughter of the parents identified ? Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Healy.
3. Information about whether the profile obtained by the INML corresponds to the profile traced in the English laboratory, on the request of the British authorities.
4. If there are differences between the English and Portuguese profiles that a report should be drawn up for this inquiry.
5. In the follow-up of point 4, we request to be informed whether in the English profile the girl is the daughter of the McCann couple.
6. Other information that might be of use to the investigation.
Signed G. Amaral
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Results of the above tests:
Detection and Analysis of Amplified DNA
The detection and analysis of the amplified DNA was carried out in the automatic sequencer ABI Prism Genetic Analyser.
Conclusion
- In the swabs described in lines 1, 2 and 3, blood vestiges were found.
- In the swab described in line 4 very slight traces of blood were found.
- In the DNA analysis of the haematic vestiges detected in the swabs described in lines 1 and 2 a profile was obtained belonging to an individual of the male sex.
- In the DNA analysis of the swab described in line 3 only some results were obtained from the loci that were studied. According to the results obtained a mixture of biological traces belonging to more than one individual were found, it only being possible to indicate the profile of the main contributor who presented an identity of polymorphisms for a set of loci studied with the profile described in the previous line.
- There is no identity of polymorphisms of the haematic vestiges detected in the swabs described in lines 1, 2 and 3 with the profiles sent by email on 8th November 2007 and in the letter number 034308 of the 4th October 2007.
- In the DNA analysis of the haematic vestiges detected in the swab described in line 4 results were only obtained from some of the loci studied, corresponding to the profile of an individual of the female sex. According to the results obtained, there is no polymorphism identity with the profiles sent by email on 8th November 2007 and in the letter number 034308 of the 4th October 2007.
Return of material: return the remains of the material received for examination.
15th November 2007
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It's not quite clear why João Carlos took No. 3...
07 Processos Vol VII Page 1818
07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1818
Policia Judiciara
NUIPC-201 070 GALGS
4th Brigade
Inspector Joao Carlos
Terms Of Withdrawal
I consign to the case files that I proceeded to the withdrawal of vestige no. 3 (evidence bag no. 022917) to which the previous report refers, with the aim of depositing it later.
Conclusion
Portimao
12th June 2007
Signed
Inspector Joao Carlos
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
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From the lab. 1 & 2 were of a male. The result of No. 3 was a partial mixed profile, with the main contributor being whoever that male was.
Conclusion
- In the swabs described in lines 1, 2 and 3, blood vestiges were found.
- In the swab described in line 4 very slight traces of blood were found.
- In the DNA analysis of the haematic vestiges detected in the swabs described in lines 1 and 2 a profile was obtained belonging to an individual of the male sex.
- In the DNA analysis of the swab described in line 3 only some results were obtained from the loci that were studied. According to the results obtained a mixture of biological traces belonging to more than one individual were found, it only being possible to indicate the profile of the main contributor who presented an identity of polymorphisms for a set of loci studied with the profile described in the previous line.
- There is no identity of polymorphisms of the haematic vestiges detected in the swabs described in lines 1, 2 and 3 with the profiles sent by email on 8th November 2007 and in the letter number 034308 of the 4th October 2007.
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Google Maps link https://goo.gl/maps/NBKwSDFmHEr
Examination initiated on 06 May 2007
The report on the collection of blood vestiges carried out on 06 May 2007, from the wall, next to the main entrance of Quinta dos Figos, situated on Rua 1 de Maio, in Praia da Luz, in Lagos, is requested.
Observations and Analyses Made
A team from the Crime Scene section of the Scientific Police Laboratory, composed of the undersigned officers, after a request made by the Portimao DIC of the Policia Judiciaria, went to Rua 1 de Maio, in Praia da Luz, in Lagos, where we were requested to proceed to collect various stains, supposedly haematic that were on the wall and the ground in that street. This collection was within the area of investigation into the disappearance of an English girl.
Photo 1: Map of the scene showing the entrance to Quinta dos Figos encircled in red.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P7/07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1812.jpg)
1811.jpg
Upon the team's arrival at the scene it was reported to us by the inspectors present that the supposed blood stains were found on a wall and on the ground close to the wall, next to main entrance of Quinta dos Figos
Photo 2 : Panoramic view of the site where the supposed blood stains were found.
Photos 3 , 4 and 5: Entrance to the Quinta dos Figos where eventual biological vestiges were found and detail of the plaque with the name of the property and of the plaque with the street name.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P7/07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1813.jpg)
1812.jpg
Photo 6: Shot of the area of the Quinta dos Figos wall where the supposed blood stains were found.
From the observation made of the wall and its proximities various stains were detected with a brownish red colour which suggested that they could be of haematic origin. These were submitted to tests to detect peroxide existing in the blood using the Kastle-Mayer test, in both cases the reactions were positive.
The stain referred to as vestige no. 3 was further submitted for testing to determine whether the blood was of animal origin, but reacted positively as being human blood.
The blood stains mentioned previously were separated by zones and referenced as vestige no. 1 those being the stains found on the gravel ground, vestiges no. 2 being the blood stains that were found on top of the wall and vestige no. 3 as being the stains that were found on the ground in the area where there cobblestones.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P7/07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1814.jpg)
1813.jpg
Photo 7: Shot of vestiges 1, 2 and 3.
Photos 8 and 9: Detail of vestige 1
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P7/07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1815.jpg)
1814.jpg
Photos 10 and 11: Detail of vestige 2.
Photos 12 and 13: Detail of vestige 3
Photo 14: Indicator test of the presence of human blood
1815.jpg
The collection of the vestiges indicated as vestiges nos. 1, 2 and 3 was begun using slightly moistened swabs, in accordance with the procedures of the Scientific Police Laboratory's Biology Area.
Conclusion:
Upon the request of the Portimao DIC present at the site, collection was made of 3 swabs containing blood vestiges, referred to in this report as vestiges nos. 1,2 and 3, which were delivered to the Biology Area, by means of delivery guide no. 189/2007 - CR/L, copy of which is annexed, in order to be preserved for further/eventual forensic examinations.
The test for the determination of animal species carried out on vestige 3 was placed in an evidence bag series A no. 022917 and delivered to the Portimao DIC.
Lisbon, 31st May 2007.
Thanks for all the info, John 8@??)(
Funny how this has only just come out? Don't you think?
Just as things might be about to get moving re. prosecution (IMO). Can't say any more.
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The route from Apartment 5a to the entrance to Quinta dos Figos, a distance of 600 metres.
(http://i.imgur.com/aD6PEi4.jpg)
Hi John
I think that you have messed up on this, sorry to say.
You have quoted the route back to 5A, rather than the route from 5A, which is the important one if Madeleine is supposed to have walked it. I dont believe that there is a cat in hells chance that she did tbh.
Also the vertical arrows are at odds with the written word. Might I, politely suggest that in the interests of accuracy, you either remove it ... or if you have time re-do it?
Such a lot of work .. and that is appreciated, but it needs to be right or removed, dontcha think?
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What blood samples do you mean?
It would be worth reading the INML's reply to Amaral's questions.
If they swab blood spots is that a blood sample? I might have used the wrong words sorry. Swabs
I'm not a forensic scientist.
I see the report itself uses the words "blood sample" Extraction of DNA from the blood samples using the organic method (Phenol/Chloroform).
I find the presentation of the reports confusing I must admit.
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Hi John
I think that you have messed up on this, sorry to say.
You have quoted the route back to 5A, rather than the route from 5A, which is the important one if Madeleine is supposed to have walked it. I dont believe that there is a cat in hells chance that she did tbh.
Also the vertical arrows are at odds with the written word. Might I, politely suggest that in the interests of accuracy, you either remove it ... or if you have time re-do it?
Such a lot of work .. and that is appreciated, but it needs to be right or removed, dontcha think?
It is not Madeleine that has been injured. The results tell you that.
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If they swab blood spots is that a blood sample? I might have used the wrong words sorry. Swabs
I'm not a forensic scientist.
I see the report itself uses the words "blood sample"
I find the presentation of the reports confusing I must admit.
Yes, there were what looked like blood, confirmed by a test. The swabs were eventually sent for DNA analysis, but turned out to belong to a man (with the 3rd one being a mixed DNA profile, but predominantly from the same guy).
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7422.msg345912#msg345912
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Yes, there were what looked like blood, confirmed by a test. The swabs were eventually sent for DNA analysis, but turned out to belong to a man (with the 3rd one being a mixed DNA profile, but predominantly from the same guy).
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7422.msg345912#msg345912
That link didn't mean that much. What was the point of that?
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It appears pretty conclusive that the blood vestiges found on the wall and on the ground adjacent came from a male which then rules out a direct connection with Madeleine McCann.
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It appears pretty conclusive that the blood vestiges found on the wall and on the ground adjacent came from a male which then rules out a direct connection with Madeleine McCann.
.... which then rules out a direct connection with Madeleine McCann but maybe not to the whole scenario if you consider the deceased child swapped for a living child theory.
There were traces of female DNA detected too.
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.... which then rules out a direct connection with Madeleine McCann but maybe not to the whole scenario if you consider the deceased child swapped for a living child theory.
There were traces of female DNA detected too.
Point 4 (sample 1a -female) is from a kitchen cupboard somewhere that appears to have been sent in at the same time. Nothing to do with blood found in the street.
189 = a street in PdL.
196 = a flat in Burgau.
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I had thought the human blood at Quinta dos Figos trail simply vanished into thin air when I wrote it up on my blog roughly 2 years ago.
My thanks to those who have managed to go further than me on this, and have shared the findings in this thread.
I doubt it will make too much of a difference now, but I have taken the time to update my original blog post to show that the blood was found to be male, and so obviously not Madeleine's.
With credit given to the Justice Forum, of course. Thanks again.
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I had thought the human blood at Quinta dos Figos trail simply vanished into thin air when I wrote it up on my blog roughly 2 years ago.
My thanks to those who have managed to go further than me on this, and have shared the findings in this thread.
I doubt it will make too much of a difference now, but I have taken the time to update my original blog post to show that the blood was found to be male, and so obviously not Madeleine's.
With credit given to the Justice Forum, of course. Thanks again.
How has this furthered the investigation?
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How has this furthered the investigation?
Quite possibly it hasn't, at least in the sense I think you mean.
In the early days of my blog, I could see the human blood turning up in the PJ Files. I could see the removal of evidence by a PJ Inspector. I could see Amaral requesting a hurry up on the analysis from the INML shortly before he got hoiked. After that, I could find nothing.
So I wrote that up as such on my blog, and the viewing stats in the interim made it clear there was a fair degree of interest in 'human blood at Quinta dos Figos'.
As it happens, this is one of the things I emailed to OG, with nowt but the standard auto-response. Hopefully, they had already sorted this point out.
In my defence, I did extensive searches on the subject before I did my blog entry. One of the problems of Internet searches is they can be hit or miss. If the info that the blood was male was out there already, it did not turn up. If it has been covered on this forum already, I did not find it.
Check the OP. I currently believe the reason for this is someone had looked at what I had written two years ago on my blog on this topic.
I have updated my original blog post to show that the blood was analysed and was male. With the intent of not leading others to think there was 'disappearing human blood' evidence. So while it will not alter the course of OG, perhaps a few folk who still read my 'antique' blog posts will get a more accurate picture.
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Quite possibly it hasn't, at least in the sense I think you mean.
In the early days of my blog, I could see the human blood turning up in the PJ Files. I could see the removal of evidence by a PJ Inspector. I could see Amaral requesting a hurry up on the analysis from the INML shortly before he got hoiked. After that, I could find nothing.
So I wrote that up as such on my blog, and the viewing stats in the interim made it clear there was a fair degree of interest in 'human blood at Quinta dos Figos'.
As it happens, this is one of the things I emailed to OG, with nowt but the standard auto-response. Hopefully, they had already sorted this point out.
In my defence, I did extensive searches on the subject before I did my blog entry. One of the problems of Internet searches is they can be hit or miss. If the info that the blood was male was out there already, it did not turn up. If it has been covered on this forum already, I did not find it.
Check the OP. I currently believe the reason for this is someone had looked at what I had written two years ago on my blog on this topic.
I have updated my original blog post to show that the blood was analysed and was male. With the intent of not leading others to think there was 'disappearing human blood' evidence. So while it will not alter the course of OG, perhaps a few folk who still read my 'antique' blog posts will get a more accurate picture.
This did not answer my question. "How did this further The Investigation?" It simply didn't.
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The PJ had had these potentially suspicious samples of human blood since 6 May. Amaral eventually got around to sending them to the lab to compare the DNA with knon profiles... on 29 September.
Not that it might have been a crucial clue or anything... ?8)@)-)
onfidential
To: The Director of the Scientific Police Laboratory
From PJ, DIC Portimao
Date: 26-09-2007
Subject: Request for Examinations
Ref: NUIPC 201.07 Galgs
As it necessary for the investigation of the crime mentioned above and is of a VERY URGENT nature, I request you to carry out the examinations of the material already sent to this laboratory as quickly as possible, namely:
1. Swabs with vestiges of human blood collected by officers from the local crime scene (examination no. 200707356 - CR/L) on 6th May 2007 from the wall of Quinta dos Figos, P da L. Material preserved in this laboratory (examination no. 200707143-BG). For the determination of DNA and comparison with the profiles that were obtained in the examinations carried out by the INML within the scope of the process 2007000226/LX-BC.
2. Curtain collected from apartment 5 A of the OC resort, P da L on 28th August 2007 and delivered to this laboratory on the same day where it is preserved (examination no. 200712288- BG. For the search of vestiges namely blood, semen or hair. According to the results of the examinations further tests will be considered.
With compliments,
The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
Goncalo Amaral
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Delete.
Amaral was awfully good at losing stuff.
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Amaral was awfully good at losing stuff.
I modified my post ;)
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I modified my post ;)
I have no criticism to level at you. I am just so tired of all the stuff which apparently implicates The McCanns which somehow went missing on Amaral's watch.
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This did not answer my question. "How did this further The Investigation?" It simply didn't.
I'll stick with this, which very definitely answers your question. "Quite possibly it hasn't, at least in the sense I think you mean."
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I'll stick with this, which very definitely answers your question. "Quite possibly it hasn't, at least in the sense I think you mean."
What? There is nothing "Quite possibly" about it. And please don't assume that you think you know what I mean.
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I have no criticism to level at you. I am just so tired of all the stuff which apparently implicates The McCanns which somehow went missing on Amaral's watch.
I don't know the samples actually went missing.... but I find it somewhat extraordinary that it took 5 months for him to get around to organising a DNA test.
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I don't know the samples actually went missing.... but I find it somewhat extraordinary that it took 5 months for him to get around to organising a DNA test.
Gosh. As soon as that. But then it was a Man, who was entirely unrelated to The McCanns. No purchase in that, was there.
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What? There is nothing "Quite possibly" about it. And please don't assume that you think you know what I mean.
I will assume that which I will, and you are in no position to dictate my thinking.
You got a polite, expansive and explicative thought on why this thread originated, and its evolution.
I have done with the need to be polite. It was 'quite possibly'. It remains at 'quite possibly' until such times as you choose to move away from one-line assertions backed by ... nothing.
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I don't know the samples actually went missing.... but I find it somewhat extraordinary that it took 5 months for him to get around to organising a DNA test.
In my innocence I thought that the DNA evidence from those samples lifted from the entrance of Quinta dos Figos was one of the factors which ruled out the woke, wandered and met with an accident theory.
Yet again it has proved to be a case of the foot soldiers providing evidence which was in turn neglected, lost or stolen by the English, by the detectives running the investigation.
In my opinion an absolute disgrace that possible forensic evidence was ignored for five months in a case where there was so little to begin with.
Could this possibly have been because the senior detective had already formulated his theory five months previously and the QdF samples couldn't be worked into it?
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I will assume that which I will, and you are in no position to dictate my thinking.
You got a polite, expansive and explicative thought on why this thread originated, and its evolution.
I have done with the need to be polite. It was 'quite possibly'. It remains at 'quite possibly' until such times as you choose to move away from one-line assertions backed by ... nothing.
And yet you think you can dictate my thinking.
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Gosh. As soon as that. But then it was a Man, who was entirely unrelated to The McCanns. No purchase in that, was there.
Blood could come from the victim or the perpetrator or even both victim and perpetrator as a mixed sample.
Who left the earliest. How can they compare DNA of the blood sample to someone else, they need the someone else sample first to compare it with. At least they took the samples from the scene and when they find this someone else they can complete the tests.
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Blood could come from the victim or the perpetrator or even both victim and perpetrator as a mixed sample.
Who left the earliest. How can they compare DNA of the blood sample to someone else, they need the someone else sample first to compare it with. At least they took the samples from the scene and when they find this someone else they can complete the tests.
You don't know much about DNA Testing, do you.
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Blood could come from the victim or the perpetrator or even both victim and perpetrator as a mixed sample.
Who left the earliest. How can they compare DNA of the blood sample to someone else, they need the someone else sample first to compare it with. At least they took the samples from the scene and when they find this someone else they can complete the tests.
The samples definitely cannot be connected to any of those who had a sample taken in the process of the investigation.
Does anyone know if or how far down the road Portugal has got in the establishment of a National DNA Database?
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Gosh. As soon as that. But then it was a Man, who was entirely unrelated to The McCanns. No purchase in that, was there.
You seem biased towards the McCanns. They should be no more a suspect than anyone else in the area.
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You seem biased towards the McCanns. They should be no more a suspect than anyone else in the area.
I am not biased towards The McCanns. I am entirely convinced of their innocence.
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The samples definitely cannot be connected to any of those who had a sample taken in the process of the investigation.
Does anyone know if or how far down the road Portugal has got in the establishment of a National DNA Database?
That is what I meant. You need to have the perpetrator in the database first. You can do a DNA test on blood but you need a database which includes the victim or the perpetrator to make a match. Only then can you say whether it is relevant to the whole scenario or not.
At least they determined it wasn't Madeleine's blood.
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I am not biased towards The McCanns. I am entirely convinced of their innocence.
Both of them? I sense Kate is truly innocent but did Gerry know something he couldn't let on? Innocent but not ignorance is my guess but he still couldn't join the dots to make the whole picture.
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Both of them? I sense Kate is truly innocent but did Gerry know something he couldn't let on? Innocent but not ignorance is my guess but he still couldn't join the dots to make the whole picture.
Both of them. And what dots are you talking about, beyond your own foetid imagination?
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You seem biased towards the McCanns. They should be no more a suspect than anyone else in the area.
The Drs McCann have been investigated to the nth degree by the law enforcement agencies of two countries and are not considered to be suspects Madeleine's disappearance in any way shape or form.
Do you have access to superior knowledge which allows your speculation?
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Both of them? I sense Kate is truly innocent but did Gerry know something he couldn't let on? Innocent but not ignorance is my guess but he still couldn't join the dots to make the whole picture.
Your speculation is verging on the defamatory ... please have a care.
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That is what I meant. You need to have the perpetrator in the database first. You can do a DNA test on blood but you need a database which includes the victim or the perpetrator to make a match. Only then can you say whether it is relevant to the whole scenario or not.
At least they determined it wasn't Madeleine's blood.
The INML (the DNA lab) was asked to send the DNA profiles that they had to the PJ Scientific Lab (it's never been entirely what the latter is actually equippd to deal with).
It was until then, that the PJ and the labs realised that they didn't actually have Madeleine's DNA profile at hand and had to contact the UK to get a copy sent over.
The correspondence is quite amusing, but a bit of a mess.
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The Drs McCann have been investigated to the nth degree by the law enforcement agencies of two countries and are not considered to be suspects Madeleine's disappearance in any way shape or form.
Do you have access to superior knowledge which allows your speculation?
I thought Eleanor was biased from recent comments, but I don't know you guys that well as yet. I don't point the finger at the McCanns either but what I was implying is that I was sensing (after watching "hundreds" of interviews of the two) that Gerry may have begun to suspect who was involved but still had no proof. It was one of those hunches we all have.
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Both of them. And what dots are you talking about, beyond your own foetid imagination?
There must have been a swag of information coming into the McCann's investigation site.
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There must have been a swag of information coming into the McCann's investigation site.
There must have been ... indeed Scotland Yard managed to work that one out some time ago. So I think you can rest easy that Scotland Yard have covered all the obvious bases.
**Snip
The Home Office requested a review of the case in May 2011. Operation Grange, which has been supporting the Portuguese police's investigation, became a full investigation in July 2012.
The Met said in October that officers had finished bringing together and investigating the information held by Portuguese police, the UK investigation and private investigators working on behalf of the McCann family.
The inquiry took 1,338 statements and collected 1,027 exhibits but has not yet reached a conclusion.
Officers investigated more than 60 persons of interest. A total of 650 sex offenders were considered as well as reports of 8,685 potential sightings of Madeleine around the world.
Having reviewed all of the documents, "7,154 actions were raised and 560 lines of inquiry identified", the Met said.
More than 30 requests were made to "countries across the world asking for work to be undertaken on behalf of the Met".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36138504
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The blood stains were on top of the wall, and on the ground next to the wall.
One of the samples was confirmed by forensic lab to be human blood not animal.
What scenario could explain this?
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The blood stains were on top of the wall, and on the ground next to the wall.
One of the samples was confirmed by forensic lab to be human blood not animal.
What scenario could explain this?
A drunk tripped and fell onto the wall? A human sacrifice? You tell us.
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You seem biased towards the McCanns. They should be no more a suspect than anyone else in the area.
It was this post that made me wonder if you were biased http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7422.msg345995#msg345995
I have no criticism to level at you. I am just so tired of all the stuff which apparently implicates The McCanns which somehow went missing on Amaral's watch.
It sounds like you thought they slipped through the net.
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A drunk tripped and fell onto the wall? A human sacrifice? You tell us.
A human sacrifice does not explain why there was animal blood unless you think chckens were slaughtered at the same time, just up your voodoo street I suppose
@pegasus
Could be different timings of any incidents or not
Car accident, personal violence, any mishap with leeking shopping as per mccanns boot , as many examples as one can think of
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A human sacrifice does not explain why there was animal blood unless you think chckens were slaughtered at the same time, just up your voodoo street I suppose
@pegasus
Could be different timings of any incidents or not
Car accident, personal violence, any mishap with leeking shopping as per mccanns boot , as many examples as one can think of
I thought there was no animal blood. I was thinking of the story of Abraham having to sacrifice Isaac, maybe someone else intervened and stopped the sacrifice happening (just a little nick only) and cut his hand in the process (blood gushed out). As it says in Genesis "The hand of the Lord stopped it".
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I thought there was no animal blood. I was thinking of the story of Abraham having to sacrifice Isaac, maybe someone else intervened and stopped the sacrifice happening (just a little nick only) and cut his hand in the process. As it says in Genesis "The hand of the Lord stopped it".
Well you thought wrong,there was animal blood
To resort to the bible as a back up for sayng could have been a human sacrifice in the streets of portugal makes me thnk you are 200 times loonier than you first appeared to be and that was some
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Well you thought wrong,there was animal blood
To resort to the bible as a back up for sayng could have been a human sacrifice in the streets of portugal makes me thnk you are 200 times loonier than you first appeared to be and that was some
So how dumb of me to misunderstand your post #54
"The blood stains were on top of the wall, and on the ground next to the wall.
One of the samples was confirmed by forensic lab to be human blood not animal.
What scenario could explain this? "
So are you saying the other three had animal blood and only one had human blood or something along those lines?
Well that still fits in with Abraham's experience for there was a ram caught by the horns in a thicket and it was sacrificed instead.
It could happen in a situation of severe depression where someone acts out a Biblical scene.
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So how dumb of me to misunderstand your post #54
"The blood stains were on top of the wall, and on the ground next to the wall.
One of the samples was confirmed by forensic lab to be human blood not animal.
What scenario could explain this? "
So are you saying the other three had animal blood and only one had human blood or something along those lines?
Well that still fits in with Abraham's experience for there was a ram caught by the horns in a thicket and it was sacrificed instead.
It could happen in a situation of severe depression where someone acts out a Biblical scene.
post 54 was not me
Scary, dont contemplate it
No there was no animal blood found,my mistake
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post 54 was not me
Scary, dont contemplate it
No there was no animal blood found,my mistake
Sorry #53 not #54. Fair enough. But it doesn't say there was no animal blood either.
But if it is blood and not human blood, one would expect that to mean it was animal blood as the default situation.
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That is what I meant. You need to have the perpetrator in the database first. You can do a DNA test on blood but you need a database which includes the victim or the perpetrator to make a match. Only then can you say whether it is relevant to the whole scenario or not.
At least they determined it wasn't Madeleine's blood.
It depends what you mean by "database". The police asked quite a few people to allow them to take a DNA swab, so the INML (the DNA lab) had those profiles to compare the blood to. Hardly the equivalent of a national, let alone Europol database, though.
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I thought there was no animal blood. I was thinking of the story of Abraham having to sacrifice Isaac, maybe someone else intervened and stopped the sacrifice happening (just a little nick only) and cut his hand in the process (blood gushed out). As it says in Genesis "The hand of the Lord stopped it".
There WASN't any animal blood. It's the wording of the PJ report that's led to the confusion.
It said that a test was done to determine the "species of animal". The species of animal was human.
There is no logical reason as to why they'd be interested in whether it was a cat or a dog. They just wanted to check whether it was human or animal blood, and did so on one of the samples. As one turned out positive for human blood, they took swabs of the other two as well.
And once the lab was finally given the samples to test for DNA, they would have noticed if any of the three had had animal DNA in them.
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Sorry #53 not #54. Fair enough. But it doesn't say there was no animal blood either.
But if it is blood and not human blood, one would expect that to mean it was animal blood as the default situation.
Except that the tests showed that the animal was human...
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Except that the tests showed that the animal was human...
That makes sense but is it right?
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The samples definitely cannot be connected to any of those who had a sample taken in the process of the investigation.
Does anyone know if or how far down the road Portugal has got in the establishment of a National DNA Database?
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/madeleine-dna-in-portugal/ This covers the Portuguese national DNA database from its inception through its first success to a fairly current total for number of entries. The way in which entries are added and removed is quite different to the UK system, so it is basically non-comparable.
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That makes sense but is it right?
Well, it could be Martian juice, I suppose...
Let's see.
It looked like blood.
The forensic police did a test with the gadget you can see in one of the photos above. It indicated human blood.
The DNA lab tests showed human DNA.
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Well, it could be Martian juice, I suppose...
Let's see.
It looked like blood.
The forensic police did a test with the gadget you can see in one of the photos above. It indicated human blood.
The DNA lab tests showed human DNA.
I'll have another look at it. It just fries my brain following the flow of those reports.
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I'll have another look at it. It just fries my brain following the flow of those reports.
A friendly suggestion. As the thread has established the blood was from a male, thus not Madeleine, you might wish to simply accept that.
It would take a highly convoluted theory to link male blood to Madeleine's disappearance.
A simpler, and much more probable explanation, is that someone tripped over on the loose calcadas (cobbles). The surface of anything finished with calcadas is uneven, and when you go over, they are sufficiently sharp that it is normal to end up with something bleeding.
The area of Luz around NECI, a charity helping children with learning difficulties, was paved with a flat honeycomb-shaped tile, presumably to remove this safety hazard.
I often see elderly Portuguese choosing to walk on the tarmac on a road rather than chancing the calcadas on the pavements.
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A friendly suggestion. As the thread has established the blood was from a male, thus not Madeleine, you might wish to simply accept that.
It would take a highly convoluted theory to link male blood to Madeleine's disappearance.
A simpler, and much more probable explanation, is that someone tripped over on the loose calcadas (cobbles). The surface of anything finished with calcadas is uneven, and when you go over, they are sufficiently sharp that it is normal to end up with something bleeding.
The area of Luz around NECI, a charity helping children with learning difficulties, was paved with a flat honeycomb-shaped tile, presumably to remove this safety hazard.
I often see elderly Portuguese choosing to walk on the tarmac on a road rather than chancing the calcadas on the pavements.
That sounds far more likely to me as well. On the other hand, IMO, it really should have been DNA tested far earlier simply to eliminate the blood as potentially being Madeleine's.
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That sounds far more likely to me as well. On the other hand, IMO, it really should have been DNA tested far earlier simply to eliminate the blood as potentially being Madeleine's.
I would agree with that, at least in principle.
What I do not have is a nailed-down understanding of how Team Amaral (aka the PJ, GNR etc) worked at the time - in a logistical sense.
They appeared to have office support tools that simply were not up to the requirements of this case. Paper based files. So many instances of the LH seeming not knowing what the RH was doing. And it looks like the principal organisation tool was memory.
It took me months to get my head wrapped round the basics, and even that was achieved by ignoring large slabs that do not interest me, such as multiple world-wide sightings and hoaxers galore.
It must have been chaos at the time.
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https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/madeleine-dna-in-portugal/ This covers the Portuguese national DNA database from its inception through its first success to a fairly current total for number of entries. The way in which entries are added and removed is quite different to the UK system, so it is basically non-comparable.
Thanks, Shining.
I know there are various privacy and security issues connected with DNA data being gathered and stored and wondered if Portugal had restrictions due to judicial secrecy laws.