UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: scipio_usmc on September 05, 2016, 12:01:48 AM
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David is being dishonest in suggesting on blue that his theories changed my mind or was not responded to. Here is a message I sent to David in PM:
"What Jeremy suggested to his lawyers we do no know. We do know the defense contended at trial that the rifle barrel made the marks. The defense contended someone had jammed the rifle into Nevill's back very hard and that it wasn't burns. How do you know that Jeremy didn't suggest this to his lawyer?
Jeremy would be scared that if he suggested something on his own like that to police that people would suspect he knew because he was the killer. All claims Jeremy has advanced have publicly been alleged first by others from the nonsense claim that Bonnett's log was a log of a call from Nevill to the claim that the burn marks were from the rifle but we have no way of knowing whether Jeremy suggested any of these things and got the ball rolling.
While you are convinced that the rifle made the burns I am not. The test marks made by the rifle show no burning in the center where the hole is but the marks on Nevill's back do not look like such. Moreover, the notion Jeremy took the time to heat the rifle to burn his back is almost as hard to believe as Sheila doing so. Vanezis thought they were burns. Perhaps they were but perhaps they were bruises inflicted post-mortem and this post-mortem infliction is what threw Vanezis for a loop. The defense suggested what if Sheila was prodding Nevill with the rifle and by jabbing it hard to prod him the marks were made. Maybe Jeremy suggested such to his lawyers and maybe Jeremy made the marks hoping someone would believe that.
Jeremy changed his story plenty of times from changing his claim that Sheila was trained to use all weapons in the house to changing his account of the gun not fitting in the closet with the attachments in place to not fitting in its nonexistent case and changing when he last used it prior to the murders. He even tried suggesting Nevill said she has the gun not Sheila. DeFeo's changed his story until worn down and then confessed. Then at trial he feigned insanity. A decade after his conviction is when he came out with a far different account to try to disclaim liability and reject his confession. Jeremy didn't confess to the authorities he had no need to make up a new account to avoid a confession and was limited by his own claims of receiving a distress call. He couldn't very well claim the real killer alerted him and that he lied saying Nevill phoned.
I couldn't care less about people bothering me trying to get me to do something I only do things on my terms not the terms of others.
You are free to share with me what you have come up with but I rather think that I already guessed what methods you employed.
Aside from no way to prove it is a palm print let alone her palm print you ignore that the wrist dips in while the palm sticks out. Your notion that the wrist would have to touch the Bible is quite wrong. Placing my palm against a desk results in the palm and my upper forearm touching but there is a gap in between both where there is no touching at all. It is also possible for Jeremy to hold her hand and just press the Bible against it.
Sheila's bloody prints were not found on the outside of the Bible nor were even non-bloody prints found. Vanezis testified that the inside of her hands were free of blood while the outside had blood. This testimony is the record so far as the appeal is concerned. Photos that exist corroborate such. So on top of all other problems there is the problem of the lack of blood inside her hand and the fact the Bible was sitting in a pool of blood.
There is no way this would be viewed as anything other than speculation which even if true doesn't undermine the evidence that convicted Jeremy. You want it to be more because of your own agenda. It is just as specious and the drug claims they keep making."
David did not follow up with providing anymore details of his theory since he saw it would be futile.
There is not much new to discuss with respect to Bamber so instead I have been heavily debating the Steven Avery case. There are a group of crazy women who support him who act just like Jeremy's campaign team though no bake offs YET! There are a bunch of people who post on the net who come up with one crazy speculation after the next including claiming police killed the victim to frame Avery. His lawyer is out to get all the attention she can garner tweeting her arse off egging the nuts on trying to drum up viewers for season 2 of the docudrama which will include her and to that end even filed a brief recently that contained nothing but deception. In other words there are serious fireworks and you know I can't stay out of a fray especially when outnumbered- the pro-Avery group well outnumbers the sane people.
I got banned from posting on the pro-Avery site like I did from blue - big shock! Hope you all had a good Summer.
Should there be some developments in the Bamber case of course I will respond to them.
End of message- carry on all...
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Thanks for clarifying Scip.
You had not logged in for over two month, during this period I tired e-mailing you on
j******n*@g******f**t****.com I got no reply from you.
I started to wonder if you had started doubting your positions.
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David is being dishonest in suggesting on blue that his theories changed my mind or was not responded to. Here is a message I sent to David in PM:
"What Jeremy suggested to his lawyers we do no know. We do know the defense contended at trial that the rifle barrel made the marks. The defense contended someone had jammed the rifle into Nevill's back very hard and that it wasn't burns. How do you know that Jeremy didn't suggest this to his lawyer?
Jeremy would be scared that if he suggested something on his own like that to police that people would suspect he knew because he was the killer. All claims Jeremy has advanced have publicly been alleged first by others from the nonsense claim that Bonnett's log was a log of a call from Nevill to the claim that the burn marks were from the rifle but we have no way of knowing whether Jeremy suggested any of these things and got the ball rolling.
While you are convinced that the rifle made the burns I am not. The test marks made by the rifle show no burning in the center where the hole is but the marks on Nevill's back do not look like such. Moreover, the notion Jeremy took the time to heat the rifle to burn his back is almost as hard to believe as Sheila doing so. Vanezis thought they were burns. Perhaps they were but perhaps they were bruises inflicted post-mortem and this post-mortem infliction is what threw Vanezis for a loop. The defense suggested what if Sheila was prodding Nevill with the rifle and by jabbing it hard to prod him the marks were made. Maybe Jeremy suggested such to his lawyers and maybe Jeremy made the marks hoping someone would believe that.
Jeremy changed his story plenty of times from changing his claim that Sheila was trained to use all weapons in the house to changing his account of the gun not fitting in the closet with the attachments in place to not fitting in its nonexistent case and changing when he last used it prior to the murders. He even tried suggesting Nevill said she has the gun not Sheila. DeFeo's changed his story until worn down and then confessed. Then at trial he feigned insanity. A decade after his conviction is when he came out with a far different account to try to disclaim liability and reject his confession. Jeremy didn't confess to the authorities he had no need to make up a new account to avoid a confession and was limited by his own claims of receiving a distress call. He couldn't very well claim the real killer alerted him and that he lied saying Nevill phoned.
I couldn't care less about people bothering me trying to get me to do something I only do things on my terms not the terms of others.
You are free to share with me what you have come up with but I rather think that I already guessed what methods you employed.
Aside from no way to prove it is a palm print let alone her palm print you ignore that the wrist dips in while the palm sticks out. Your notion that the wrist would have to touch the Bible is quite wrong. Placing my palm against a desk results in the palm and my upper forearm touching but there is a gap in between both where there is no touching at all. It is also possible for Jeremy to hold her hand and just press the Bible against it.
Sheila's bloody prints were not found on the outside of the Bible nor were even non-bloody prints found. Vanezis testified that the inside of her hands were free of blood while the outside had blood. This testimony is the record so far as the appeal is concerned. Photos that exist corroborate such. So on top of all other problems there is the problem of the lack of blood inside her hand and the fact the Bible was sitting in a pool of blood.
There is no way this would be viewed as anything other than speculation which even if true doesn't undermine the evidence that convicted Jeremy. You want it to be more because of your own agenda. It is just as specious and the drug claims they keep making."
David did not follow up with providing anymore details of his theory since he saw it would be futile.
There is not much new to discuss with respect to Bamber so instead I have been heavily debating the Steven Avery case. There are a group of crazy women who support him who act just like Jeremy's campaign team though no bake offs YET! There are a bunch of people who post on the net who come up with one crazy speculation after the next including claiming police killed the victim to frame Avery. His lawyer is out to get all the attention she can garner tweeting her arse off egging the nuts on trying to drum up viewers for season 2 of the docudrama which will include her and to that end even filed a brief recently that contained nothing but deception. In other words there are serious fireworks and you know I can't stay out of a fray especially when outnumbered- the pro-Avery group well outnumbers the sane people.
I got banned from posting on the pro-Avery site like I did from blue - big shock! Hope you all had a good Summer.
Should there be some developments in the Bamber case of course I will respond to them.
End of message- carry on all...
Hi Scipio.
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
For those that believe the bible/blood staining has some significance (Caroline and David) are you able to identify the exhibit number given to the bible by the police and the outcome of forensic testing by way of blood test results?
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Hi Scipio.
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
For those that believe the bible/blood staining has some significance (Caroline and David) are you able to identify the exhibit number given to the bible by the police and the outcome of forensic testing by way of blood test results?
The blood on the Bible was not tested. The Bible was only examined for prints. Those who examined it for prints did not think that the blood stain looked like a palm print or any fingerprints were discernible in the blood. Obviously they would see it much more clearly than us while looking at it in person. Enlarged photos are not anywhere near as good at showing the actual detail. They obtained several prints from the Bible in areas not containing blood but they were June's and one they believed to be a child's print based on the diminutive size. The diminutive print was never matched to anyone. There were also some smudged prints not suitable for comparison purposes.
They did not test the blood because they figured it was Sheila's blood. The Bible was resting in a pool of her blood and they presumed that was how the blood got there. Proving it was indeed her blood would add nothing to the case so it was not tested.
Let's take a flight of fancy. Let's pretend the blood was proven to be June's and people said this proves she was reading it before she died. Would this help prove who the killer was? No, because all it would mean is that someone moved it at some point. Sheila could have done so or Jeremy could have done so. In no way does this help establish who the killer was. Admittedly it makes little sense for Sheila to pick up the Bible and leave it open to the same exact page June bled on but it still is not particularly significant.
Where it would have been useful would be if they were smart enough to realize was was recognized on appeal. That it was placed in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila's death. Proving it was Sheila's blood to use to establish it was placed in a pool of blood that formed after her death would prove someone else was at the scene. But those handling the case were not smart enough to pick up on such. So in the end testing the blood could actually have been used to help further the case but no one recognized it at the time. But even without testing we know it was in a pool of her blood and that the blood had to get there before the Bible so Sheila was dead before the Bible got there. That means the killer had to have placed it there. So even without the blood testing this still is an argument against Jeremy only police missed the chance to use it. It was rejected on appeal because they failed to make it at trial. Failing to appreciate something they could and should have noticed but missed until after the trial is not a valid excuse to get it considered on appeal. It has to be something they reasonably could not have known about. We are not constrained by such rules we can consider such.
People can speculate all their hearts desire about palm prints but speculation has no ability to prove anything so I prefer to not bother. I don't find it very plausible that either of the women were reading the Bible, got blood on it, reopened it to the same exact page creating a mirror image and then got a great deal more blood on it by a palm print or something else. There should have been blood on the outside if their hands were covered in blood and Sheila's hands didn't have blood inside. Much more likely is that Jeremy opened it getting some blood on it by it dripping from his gloves or the like, closed it at some point by accident and then stuck it in the pool of blood. I think it is more likely he got the Bible out and intended all along to use it to try to convey a religious motivation as opposed to getting the idea when he saw the Bible near June. But we will never know his full thought process unless Jeremy decides to talk. I have a better chance of winning the lottery despite the fact I virtually never play...
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It's time to enjoy the last of Summer, today is a holiday here. All have fun.
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The blood on the Bible was not tested. The Bible was only examined for prints. Those who examined it for prints did not think that the blood stain looked like a palm print or any fingerprints were discernible in the blood. Obviously they would see it much more clearly than us while looking at it in person. Enlarged photos are not anywhere near as good at showing the actual detail. They obtained several prints from the Bible in areas not containing blood but they were June's and one they believed to be a child's print based on the diminutive size. The diminutive print was never matched to anyone. There were also some smudged prints not suitable for comparison purposes.
They did not test the blood because they figured it was Sheila's blood. The Bible was resting in a pool of her blood and they presumed that was how the blood got there. Proving it was indeed her blood would add nothing to the case so it was not tested.
Let's take a flight of fancy. Let's pretend the blood was proven to be June's and people said this proves she was reading it before she died. Would this help prove who the killer was? No, because all it would mean is that someone moved it at some point. Sheila could have done so or Jeremy could have done so. In no way does this help establish who the killer was. Admittedly it makes little sense for Sheila to pick up the Bible and leave it open to the same exact page June bled on but it still is not particularly significant.
Where it would have been useful would be if they were smart enough to realize was was recognized on appeal. That it was placed in a pool of blood that formed after Sheila's death. Proving it was Sheila's blood to use to establish it was placed in a pool of blood that formed after her death would prove someone else was at the scene. But those handling the case were not smart enough to pick up on such. So in the end testing the blood could actually have been used to help further the case but no one recognized it at the time. But even without testing we know it was in a pool of her blood and that the blood had to get there before the Bible so Sheila was dead before the Bible got there. That means the killer had to have placed it there. So even without the blood testing this still is an argument against Jeremy only police missed the chance to use it. It was rejected on appeal because they failed to make it at trial. Failing to appreciate something they could and should have noticed but missed until after the trial is not a valid excuse to get it considered on appeal. It has to be something they reasonably could not have known about. We are not constrained by such rules we can consider such.
People can speculate all their hearts desire about palm prints but speculation has no ability to prove anything so I prefer to not bother. I don't find it very plausible that either of the women were reading the Bible, got blood on it, reopened it to the same exact page creating a mirror image and then got a great deal more blood on it by a palm print or something else. There should have been blood on the outside if their hands were covered in blood and Sheila's hands didn't have blood inside. Much more likely is that Jeremy opened it getting some blood on it by it dripping from his gloves or the like, closed it at some point by accident and then stuck it in the pool of blood. I think it is more likely he got the Bible out and intended all along to use it to try to convey a religious motivation as opposed to getting the idea when he saw the Bible near June. But we will never know his full thought process unless Jeremy decides to talk. I have a better chance of winning the lottery despite the fact I virtually never play...
Other exhibits found in that area of the bedroom ie carpet and socks were blood tested and found to belong to June by way of her ABO grouping and 1 enzyme. Do Caroline and David have any ideas about the bible by way of an exhibit number or blood since they seem to keen to advance various theories about it? I think the bible must have had an exhibit number since it was exhibited at trial although I've been unable to find one (same for the socks).
DC Hammersely's trial testimony covers all exhibits he logged and removed from the bedroom including bedding, casings and rifle. Does anyone have any explanation as to why this doesn't include the bible and socks?
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holly its only david and not caroline who thinks the bible is of significance
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holly its only david and not caroline who thinks the bible is of significance
Oh right. I guess I was assuming they both do on the basis that Caroline's research about the bible was included in PH's book and Caroline now seems to believe David has taken her ideas to apparently use as his own.
The only thing I find significant about the bible is that it doesn't appear the blood on it was tested. Or if it was the results don't appear to be generally known about.
Here's the link to Dr Lincoln's (blood expert for the defence) letter to Paul Terezon (JB's trial solicitor) where he went through all the significant items blood tested by visiting the lab and carrying out his own investigations but no mention of the bible. And why the hell are these numpties (Rivlin and Terzeon) leaving all this so close to the trial starting?.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=937
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=939
Statement from Paul Terzeon dated Sep 2002
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
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holly its only david and not caroline who thinks the bible is of significance
Oh I do think it might be significant but not in the same way.
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Oh right. I guess I was assuming they both do on the basis that Caroline's research about the bible was included in PH's book and Caroline now seems to believe David has taken her ideas to apparently use as his own.
The only thing I find significant about the bible is that it doesn't appear the blood on it was tested. Or if it was the results don't appear to be generally known about.
Here's the link to Dr Lincoln's (blood expert for the defence) letter to Paul Terezon (JB's trial solicitor) where he went through all the significant items blood tested by visiting the lab and carrying out his own investigations but no mention of the bible. And why the hell are these numpties (Rivlin and Terzeon) leaving all this so close to the trial starting?.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=937
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=939
Statement from Paul Terzeon dated Sep 2002
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
Perhaps it wasn't tested because they assumed the blood came from the carpet stain and perhaps that was. They most likely assumed the blood would be the same?
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Oh I do think it might be significant but not in the same way.
Caroline do you know whose blood was on the bible by way of forensic testing results?
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Perhaps it wasn't tested because they assumed the blood came from the carpet stain and perhaps that was. They most likely assumed the blood would be the same?
But the bible has blood staining to it on areas where I struggle to see how it could have originated from the carpet alone?
Obviously a good investigation wouldn't rely on assumptions. And a half decent defence team would pursue the forensic examination of blood tests instead of the interpretations of Abrahamic myths!
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Caroline do you know whose blood was on the bible by way of forensic testing results?
Sorry, no but I suspect it's Sheila's but I have no firm evidence for think that - it's just what I believe at the moment.
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Sorry, no but I suspect it's Sheila's but I have no firm evidence for think that - it's just what I believe at the moment.
I'm inclined to think it might belong to June but no firm evidence for this either. It just strikes me as strange that it was a central exhibit at trial and appeal and yet it doesn't appear the defence were aware of whose blood was on it.
&%+((£
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David is being dishonest in suggesting on blue that his theories changed my mind or was not responded to. Here is a message I sent to David in PM:
"What Jeremy suggested to his lawyers we do no know. We do know the defense contended at trial that the rifle barrel made the marks. The defense contended someone had jammed the rifle into Nevill's back very hard and that it wasn't burns. How do you know that Jeremy didn't suggest this to his lawyer?
Jeremy would be scared that if he suggested something on his own like that to police that people would suspect he knew because he was the killer. All claims Jeremy has advanced have publicly been alleged first by others from the nonsense claim that Bonnett's log was a log of a call from Nevill to the claim that the burn marks were from the rifle but we have no way of knowing whether Jeremy suggested any of these things and got the ball rolling.
While you are convinced that the rifle made the burns I am not. The test marks made by the rifle show no burning in the center where the hole is but the marks on Nevill's back do not look like such. Moreover, the notion Jeremy took the time to heat the rifle to burn his back is almost as hard to believe as Sheila doing so. Vanezis thought they were burns. Perhaps they were but perhaps they were bruises inflicted post-mortem and this post-mortem infliction is what threw Vanezis for a loop. The defense suggested what if Sheila was prodding Nevill with the rifle and by jabbing it hard to prod him the marks were made. Maybe Jeremy suggested such to his lawyers and maybe Jeremy made the marks hoping someone would believe that.
Jeremy changed his story plenty of times from changing his claim that Sheila was trained to use all weapons in the house to changing his account of the gun not fitting in the closet with the attachments in place to not fitting in its nonexistent case and changing when he last used it prior to the murders. He even tried suggesting Nevill said she has the gun not Sheila. DeFeo's changed his story until worn down and then confessed. Then at trial he feigned insanity. A decade after his conviction is when he came out with a far different account to try to disclaim liability and reject his confession. Jeremy didn't confess to the authorities he had no need to make up a new account to avoid a confession and was limited by his own claims of receiving a distress call. He couldn't very well claim the real killer alerted him and that he lied saying Nevill phoned.
I couldn't care less about people bothering me trying to get me to do something I only do things on my terms not the terms of others.
You are free to share with me what you have come up with but I rather think that I already guessed what methods you employed.
Aside from no way to prove it is a palm print let alone her palm print you ignore that the wrist dips in while the palm sticks out. Your notion that the wrist would have to touch the Bible is quite wrong. Placing my palm against a desk results in the palm and my upper forearm touching but there is a gap in between both where there is no touching at all. It is also possible for Jeremy to hold her hand and just press the Bible against it.
Sheila's bloody prints were not found on the outside of the Bible nor were even non-bloody prints found. Vanezis testified that the inside of her hands were free of blood while the outside had blood. This testimony is the record so far as the appeal is concerned. Photos that exist corroborate such. So on top of all other problems there is the problem of the lack of blood inside her hand and the fact the Bible was sitting in a pool of blood.
There is no way this would be viewed as anything other than speculation which even if true doesn't undermine the evidence that convicted Jeremy. You want it to be more because of your own agenda. It is just as specious and the drug claims they keep making."
David did not follow up with providing anymore details of his theory since he saw it would be futile.
There is not much new to discuss with respect to Bamber so instead I have been heavily debating the Steven Avery case. There are a group of crazy women who support him who act just like Jeremy's campaign team though no bake offs YET! There are a bunch of people who post on the net who come up with one crazy speculation after the next including claiming police killed the victim to frame Avery. His lawyer is out to get all the attention she can garner tweeting her arse off egging the nuts on trying to drum up viewers for season 2 of the docudrama which will include her and to that end even filed a brief recently that contained nothing but deception. In other words there are serious fireworks and you know I can't stay out of a fray especially when outnumbered- the pro-Avery group well outnumbers the sane people.
I got banned from posting on the pro-Avery site like I did from blue - big shock! Hope you all had a good Summer.
Should there be some developments in the Bamber case of course I will respond to them.
End of message- carry on all...
I agree with David and the 2002 appeal that the marks on Neville's back are burn marks. And also agree they are from a heated rifle.
There were enough rifles available for Bamber to do this if he didn't use the murder weapon.
Threads have been created by me on why Bamber would do this to just Neville and why Sheila would not bother at all. Sheila only had 22 minutes to do everything anyway after Neville's call to Chelmsford police, when ieverything would have taken her over an hour.
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I'm inclined to think it might belong to June but no firm evidence for this either. It just strikes me as strange that it was a central exhibit at trial and appeal and yet it doesn't appear the defence were aware of whose blood was on it.
&%+((£
Aren't you inclined to think your avatar pic and text are argubably libellous?
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Other exhibits found in that area of the bedroom ie carpet and socks were blood tested and found to belong to June by way of her ABO grouping and 1 enzyme. Do Caroline and David have any ideas about the bible by way of an exhibit number or blood since they seem to keen to advance various theories about it? I think the bible must have had an exhibit number since it was exhibited at trial although I've been unable to find one (same for the socks).
DC Hammersely's trial testimony covers all exhibits he logged and removed from the bedroom including bedding, casings and rifle. Does anyone have any explanation as to why this doesn't include the bible and socks?
Having read DC Hammersley's trial testimony again 8)><( I can see I overlooked the fact he collected and logged the bible on 9th Aug which was given the exhibit number DRH/44.
Blood staining to SC's hands:
DC Hammersley:
"Visual examination showed some slight blood staining on the back of Sheila Caffell's right hand, but apart from that the hands appeared clean and the nails in tact on both hands".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=211
Dr Vanezis from the autopsy:
"The palms and fingers were not contaminated with blood".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=668
As we know Dr V seems to contradict himself later about SC's hands/blood.
Blood staining to June's hands:
Dr Vanezis from the autopsy:
"There was blood staining also to both her hands and her head".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=684
It seems to me the blood staining on the bible most likely originated from June on the basis there's clear evidence her hands were blood stained and the bible was found on the floor in an area where other blood staining originated from June by way of blood stained socks and carpet. The bible belonged to June and we know she was deeply religious.
An aspect of the case against JB is that he planted the bible by staging it on or near SC. He messed up first time around (as he did with shooting SC) and somehow caused the pages to become bloodied, opening and closing them to cause mirror staining. And yet I can see far more evidence to suggest June carried the bible with her when she walked round the bed thus causing the blood staining from her gsw's. As she started to lose consciousness she dropped the bible. The perp then entered the main bedroom from the box room and as the door opened the bible concertinaed causing the blood staining to become mirrored. We will probably never know for sure since it appears the bible either wasn't blood tested or if it was the results were withheld and JB's lawyers appeared oblivious to it.
There's some evidence to suggest withholding by way of Paul Terzeon's letter as follows and DC Hammersley's COLP interview where he became emotional 8)><(
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=431
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Aren't you inclined to think your avatar pic and text are argubably libellous?
Freedom of expression ?{)(**
As far as I am concerned there's much evidence that GR and PT were incompetent and negligent. Same applies to the appeal court judges but worse still they display arrogance on a breathtaking scale.
You only have to read Mark Webster's report to witness this. When he states in his opinion it was not a good move, or words to this effect, that EP destroyed exhibits due to advances made in forensic science they tell him quite forcibly it is not a matter for him. And yet they want to railroad him into giving opinion where it's obvious he is not qualified. A point he made over and over. He beats the drum hard about setting up experiments but it all falls on deaf ears with the judges. Instead they offer up their own opinions on matters which they were clearly not qualified in. Frankly they sound complete dicks.
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Having read DC Hammersley's trial testimony again 8)><( I can see I overlooked the fact he collected and logged the bible on 9th Aug which was given the exhibit number DRH/44.
Blood staining to SC's hands:
DC Hammersley:
"Visual examination showed some slight blood staining on the back of Sheila Caffell's right hand, but apart from that the hands appeared clean and the nails in tact on both hands".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=211
Dr Vanezis from the autopsy:
"The palms and fingers were not contaminated with blood".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=668
As we know Dr V seems to contradict himself later about SC's hands/blood.
Blood staining to June's hands:
Dr Vanezis from the autopsy:
"There was blood staining also to both her hands and her head".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=684
It seems to me the blood staining on the bible most likely originated from June on the basis there's clear evidence her hands were blood stained and the bible was found on the floor in an area where other blood staining originated from June by way of blood stained socks and carpet. The bible belonged to June and we know she was deeply religious.
An aspect of the case against JB is that he planted the bible by staging it on or near SC. He messed up first time around (as he did with shooting SC) and somehow caused the pages to become bloodied, opening and closing them to cause mirror staining. And yet I can see far more evidence to suggest June carried the bible with her when she walked round the bed thus causing the blood staining from her gsw's. As she started to lose consciousness she dropped the bible. The perp then entered the main bedroom from the box room and as the door opened the bible concertinaed causing the blood staining to become mirrored. We will probably never know for sure since it appears the bible either wasn't blood tested or if it was the results were withheld and JB's lawyers appeared oblivious to it.
There's some evidence to suggest withholding by way of Paul Terzeon's letter as follows and DC Hammersley's COLP interview where he became emotional 8)><(
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=431
Is there any evidence that the open pages of the bible hold any relevance to the soc? Or are more relevant to SC than to June:
"Have mercy upon me, O God"
"Deliver me from bloodguiltiness O God, thou God of my salvation"
"My heart is sore pained within me: and the terrors of death are fallen upon me"
Could it be said that one could open any page of the bible and find 'meaning' with soc akin to horoscopes?
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Is there any evidence that the open pages of the bible hold any relevance to the soc? Or are more relevant to SC than to June:
"Have mercy upon me, O God"
"Deliver me from bloodguiltiness O God, thou God of my salvation"
"My heart is sore pained within me: and the terrors of death are fallen upon me"
Could it be said that one could open any page of the bible and find 'meaning' with soc akin to horoscopes?
They've no relevance. It isn't a handwritten suicide note.
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They've no relevance. It isn't a handwritten suicide note.
I think it's unlikely the open pages have any relevance at all. I don't believe the pages represent a suicide note of sorts or the handwritten note inside is a suicide note.
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Having read DC Hammersley's trial testimony again 8)><( I can see I overlooked the fact he collected and logged the bible on 9th Aug which was given the exhibit number DRH/44.
Blood staining to SC's hands:
DC Hammersley:
"Visual examination showed some slight blood staining on the back of Sheila Caffell's right hand, but apart from that the hands appeared clean and the nails in tact on both hands".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=211
Dr Vanezis from the autopsy:
"The palms and fingers were not contaminated with blood".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=668
As we know Dr V seems to contradict himself later about SC's hands/blood.
Blood staining to June's hands:
Dr Vanezis from the autopsy:
"There was blood staining also to both her hands and her head".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=684
It seems to me the blood staining on the bible most likely originated from June on the basis there's clear evidence her hands were blood stained and the bible was found on the floor in an area where other blood staining originated from June by way of blood stained socks and carpet. The bible belonged to June and we know she was deeply religious.
An aspect of the case against JB is that he planted the bible by staging it on or near SC. He messed up first time around (as he did with shooting SC) and somehow caused the pages to become bloodied, opening and closing them to cause mirror staining. And yet I can see far more evidence to suggest June carried the bible with her when she walked round the bed thus causing the blood staining from her gsw's. As she started to lose consciousness she dropped the bible. The perp then entered the main bedroom from the box room and as the door opened the bible concertinaed causing the blood staining to become mirrored. We will probably never know for sure since it appears the bible either wasn't blood tested or if it was the results were withheld and JB's lawyers appeared oblivious to it.
There's some evidence to suggest withholding by way of Paul Terzeon's letter as follows and DC Hammersley's COLP interview where he became emotional 8)><(
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=431
You ignore the mirror blood stains. For your claim to be true June would have to have handled the book with her bloody hands without getting any blood on the pages except a few drips, for it to have closed, to reopen it to the same page again not getting any blood on the outside of the Bible but then finally getting a palm print on the pages. Why would June carry it to the other side and put it face down? Worse still how could it fall face down and then Sheila's blood leak underneath it? It was placed on top of the pool of Sheila's blood.
The most simple answer is Jeremy stuck this in th epool of her blood and that is where the largest stain came from.
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You ignore the mirror blood stains. For your claim to be true June would have to have handled the book with her bloody hands without getting any blood on the pages except a few drips, for it to have closed, to reopen it to the same page again not getting any blood on the outside of the Bible but then finally getting a palm print on the pages. Why would June carry it to the other side and put it face down? Worse still how could it fall face down and then Sheila's blood leak underneath it? It was placed on top of the pool of Sheila's blood.
The most simple answer is Jeremy stuck this in th epool of her blood and that is where the largest stain came from.
Blood staining exists all over the bible. The largest stain is on page 656. Some claim this stain represents a palm print. If June carried her bible with her when she walked round the bed and dropped it I've no idea exactly how she held it. Do you know? I don't believe June put it face down. I believe she dropped it and it fell haphazardly.
You don't know whose blood was on the bible since none of it was tested, or if it was the blood test results appear to be unknown, and this in itself should set the alarm bells ringing.
Where's the evidence SC's blood leaked underneath the bible or it was placed on a pool of SC's blood? Have you seen an image of the carpet without SC's body and bible present?
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Blood staining exists all over the bible. The largest stain is on page 657. Some claim this stain represents a palm print. If June carried her bible with her when she walked round the bed and dropped it I've no idea exactly how she held it. Do you know? I don't believe June put it face down. I believe she dropped it and it fell haphazardly.
You don't know whose blood was on the bible since none of it was tested, or if it was the blood test results appear to be unknown, and this in itself should set the alarm bells ringing.
Where's the evidence SC's blood leaked underneath the bible or it was placed on a pool of SC's blood? Have you seen an image of the carpet without SC's body and bible present?
I just realised Scipio I misread your post above. I thought you said "You ignore the minor stains". I realise now you said "You ignore the mirror stains". I haven't ignored the mirror stains I've given one explanation above.
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Blood staining exists all over the bible. The largest stain is on page 657. Some claim this stain represents a palm print. If June carried her bible with her when she walked round the bed and dropped it I've no idea exactly how she held it. Do you know? I don't believe June put it face down. I believe she dropped it and it fell haphazardly.
You don't know whose blood was on the bible since none of it was tested, or if it was the blood test results appear to be unknown, and this in itself should set the alarm bells ringing.
Where's the evidence SC's blood leaked underneath the bible or it was placed on a pool of SC's blood? Have you seen an image of the carpet without SC's body and bible present?
is there an image of it
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I just realised Scipio I misread your post above. I thought you said "You ignore the minor stains". I realise now you said "You ignore the mirror stains". I haven't ignored the mirror stains I've given one explanation above.
where? Or was the comment June dropped it how you are saying it closed and then she reopened it to the same page?
Scenario: June's hands are covered in blood. She somehow opens the Bible without getting any blood on the outside despite her hands covered in blood. She just gets a few drips and then it closes. She reopens it to the same page again getting no blood on the outside yet after it is open and the mirror blood stains are formed she gets a palm print.
This doesn't sound right there should have been blood on the outside well before the closing if handled by blood covered hands.
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I think it's unlikely the open pages have any relevance at all. I don't believe the pages represent a suicide note of sorts or the handwritten note inside is a suicide note.
Neither do I but the handwritten note has been confirmed to be June's handwriting.
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is there an image of it
If there is I haven't seen it.
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where? Or was the comment June dropped it how you are saying it closed and then she reopened it to the same page?
Scenario: June's hands are covered in blood. She somehow opens the Bible without getting any blood on the outside despite her hands covered in blood. She just gets a few drips and then it closes. She reopens it to the same page again getting no blood on the outside yet after it is open and the mirror blood stains are formed she gets a palm print.
This doesn't sound right there should have been blood on the outside well before the closing if handled by blood covered hands.
From my post up thread about the mirror staining:
"And yet I can see far more evidence to suggest June carried the bible with her when she walked round the bed thus causing the blood staining from her gsw's. As she started to lose consciousness she dropped the bible. The perp then entered the main bedroom from the box room and as the door opened the bible concertinaed causing the blood staining to become mirrored. We will probably never know for sure since it appears the bible either wasn't blood tested or if it was the results were withheld and JB's lawyers appeared oblivious to it".
June sustained a gsw to her right forearm where the bullet exited meaning she had two gsw's to her arm. In addition to these gsw's she sustained 6 other gsw's where 2 of the bullets exited. In total she sustained 10 gsw's to her body/head by way of entry and exit wounds. At what stage her hands became bloodied I've no idea but at autopsy the pathologist confirms they were bloody. Jean Boutell provided testimony confirming the bible in question was kept on June's bedside cabinet. RB provided testimony confirming June read the bible in bed. I don't know the exact location of the bible when June fell asleep on 6th/7th Aug eg bedside cabinet or her bed or whether or not it was open or closed and if open on which page. It is a well know fact June was a deeply religious person to the extent that she required psychiatric treatment due to a distortion of her strong religious beliefs. It's plausible that when she walked round the bed she did so clutching her bible believing that God would comfort and help her. The bible holds much significance for individuals and institutions. It is the reason swearing of oaths whilst holding the bible takes place in English courts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24588854
The oath, still sworn by witnesses and defendants as they hold a holy book, has given the English language one of its most familiar sentences.
"I swear by Almighty God [to tell] the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."
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You can just about see the bible in the following image in relation to the half open door. Imo it is plausible that the perp entered the main bedroom from the box room and when they opened the door it caused the bible to concertina up and this is what caused the mirroring of the blood.
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Neither do I but the handwritten note has been confirmed to be June's handwriting.
Yes I agree. But it seems the CT are still trying to plug the idea the note is a suicide letter:
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible
The 2002 Appeal, the Note in the Bible and the Crocheted Cloth
Police attempts to manipulate what would have been the cornerstone of a case to prove Jeremy’s innocence at trial went even further. Clearly seen protruding from the pages of the Bible in more than one photograph is a handwritten note, which overwhelmingly supports the notion of a murder-suicide. It is reasonable to suggest this could be a suicide note from Sheila.
There's enough visible writing that JB was surely able to confirm it was June's handwriting.
If any member of the CT reads this and you believe the bible is significant why not take it up with JB, Paul Terzeon, Geoffrey Rivlin and Michael Turner and ask why they didn't obtain blood test results on the bible.
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Yes I agree. But it seems the CT are still trying to plug the idea the note is a suicide letter:
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/the-bloodied-bible
The 2002 Appeal, the Note in the Bible and the Crocheted Cloth
Police attempts to manipulate what would have been the cornerstone of a case to prove Jeremy’s innocence at trial went even further. Clearly seen protruding from the pages of the Bible in more than one photograph is a handwritten note, which overwhelmingly supports the notion of a murder-suicide. It is reasonable to suggest this could be a suicide note from Sheila.
There's enough visible writing that JB was surely able to confirm it was June's handwriting.
If any member of the CT reads this and you believe the bible is significant why not take it up with JB, Paul Terzeon, Geoffrey Rivlin and Michael Turner and ask why they didn't obtain blood test results on the bible.
That lot have suicide notes coming out the ying yang - their latest claims are just as wild http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/ and their translation completely off kilter.
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That lot have suicide notes coming out the ying yang - their latest claims are just as wild http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/ and their translation completely off kilter.
@)(++(* @)(++(* 8((()*/
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That lot have suicide notes coming out the ying yang - their latest claims are just as wild http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/ and their translation completely off kilter.
And I see they are still claiming SC was in conversation with the police %#&%4%
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And I see they are still claiming SC was in conversation with the police %#&%4%
Oh Dear %56&