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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on April 14, 2017, 12:44:02 PM
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It would seem accepted wisdom among those who support the McCanns that Amaral held some kind of bias against them and wasn't simply following the evidence presented to him.
It would be interesting to discuss therefore the origin of that bias and why it wasn't directed instead against Murat who was, it could be argued, the perfect scapegoat and, not having the worldwide support of the McCanns, would have been far easier to frame.
Cipriano is also held up as proof that Amaral had a bias against women in general, and mother's in particular. However after Amaral was made arguido in the Cipriano case in the days after Madeleine's disappearance wouldn't it have been easier for him to steer well clear of another entanglement with a perhaps guilty mother, especially one with so much support?
It is also odd that bias is argued towards women when it is obvious that Amaral must have put behind bars many, many more men in his career than women.
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It would seem accepted wisdom among those who support the McCanns that Amaral held some kind of bias against them and wasn't simply following the evidence presented to him.
It would be interesting to discuss therefore the origin of that bias and why it wasn't directed instead against Murat who was, it could be argued, the perfect scapegoat and, not having the worldwide support of the McCanns, would have been far easier to frame.
Cipriano is also held up as proof that Amaral had a bias against women in general, and mother's in particular. However after Amaral was made arguido in the Cipriano case in the days after Madeleine's disappearance wouldn't it have been easier for him to steer well clear of another entanglement with a perhaps guilty mother, especially one with so much support?
It is also odd that bias is argued towards women when it is obvious that Amaral must have put behind bars many, many more men in his career than women.
The prosecutors having made plain in their archiving dispatch that the McCanns have no case to answer, Amaral wrote a book accusing the McCanns of serious criminal offences.
Will that do?
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The prosecutors having made plain in their archiving dispatch that the McCanns have no case to answer, Amaral wrote a book accusing the McCanns of serious criminal offences.
Will that do?
The prosecutors did not know who was involved, if anyone.
Try to be precise.
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The prosecutors did/do know Kate and Gerry have no case to answer.
And they said so.
It's been cited often enough.
You still don't get it.
The prosecutors did not know how Madeleine disappeared.
The McCann's remain the last known people to have seen her alive.
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The prosecutors having made plain in their archiving dispatch that the McCanns have no case to answer, Amaral wrote a book accusing the McCanns of serious criminal offences.
Will that do?
No it won't.
Supporters suggest Amaral was biased towards the McCanns from the very beginning of the investigation so why, in the beginning, do supporters suggest that that bias existed?
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No it won't.
Supporters suggest Amaral was biased towards the McCanns from the very beginning of the investigation so why, in the beginning, do supporters suggest that that bias existed?
.... from the very beginning of the investigation.
Do you have a cite?
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.... from the very beginning of the investigation.
Do you have a cite?
I'm asking for an opinion. Many supporters say Amaral suspected the McCanns from the 4th of May so do you believe it was bias on his part or simply what the intitial evidence suggested? And if bias where did that bias originate?
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I'm asking for an opinion. Many supporters say Amaral suspected the McCanns from the 4th of May so do you believe it was bias on his part or simply what the intitial evidence suggested? And if bias where did that bias originate?
Maybe it stemmed from the Mariana case he investigated in the Azores back in the 90's (I cannot find any media reports online about it, though)
http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/chapter-15.html
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No it won't.
Supporters suggest Amaral was biased towards the McCanns from the very beginning of the investigation so why, in the beginning, do supporters suggest that that bias existed?
Yes there was a bias against Kate not the McCanns as a family. Gerry was re-interviewed but not Kate until it was clear they intended to make them arguidos.
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Yes there was a bias against Kate not the McCanns as a family. Gerry was re-interviewed but not Kate until it was clear they intended to make them arguidos.
You need to get up to speed on that.
Investigation and questioning the parents would be the normal procedure, and certainly with no evidence of abduction.
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You need to get up to speed on that.
Investigation and questioning the parents would be the normal procedure, and certainly with no evidence of abduction.
I would have expected "Investigation and questioning the parents would (as) the normal procedure" not the refusal to re-interview Kate the second time in a more reasonable time frame.
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Maybe it stemmed from the Mariana case he investigated in the Azores back in the 90's (I cannot find any media reports online about it, though)
http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/chapter-15.html
How so?
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How so?
Possibly the circumstances of the Azores case had a deeper psychological impact on him than he would ever admit in his book. In that event, the team were able to prove that a terrible crime had been committed, despite the attempted cover-up by Mariana's parents, because there was a body.
He wrote:_
"At the time of the confessions, the man described the scene for us in a very cold way, factually, showing not the slightest regret. I had to leave my colleague to continue the interrogation alone. I was so upset. How could a father come to kill his own child? I had to get a grip on myself, I had experienced such things before.....I needed all my composure if I wanted to continue the investigation with the required objectivity. Truth and justice, that's all that remains for these children".
Do you not think after the Azores, then the Ciprianos, it was a case of déjà vu for Amaral when Madeleine was reported missing/abducted, hence his bias?
Or was it something much darker?
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Possibly the circumstances of the Azores case had a deeper psychological impact on him than he would ever admit in his book. In that event, the team were able to prove that a terrible crime had been committed, despite the attempted cover-up by Mariana's parents, because there was a body.
He wrote:_
"At the time of the confessions, the man described the scene for us in a very cold way, factually, showing not the slightest regret. I had to leave my colleague to continue the interrogation alone. I was so upset. How could a father come to kill his own child? I had to get a grip on myself, I had experienced such things before.....I needed all my composure if I wanted to continue the investigation with the required objectivity. Truth and justice, that's all that remains for these children".
Do you not think after the Azores, then the Ciprianos, it was a case of déjà vu for Amaral when Madeleine was reported missing/abducted, hence his bias?
Or was it something much darker?
Or was it?
Cue Man Alive Intro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0VrTUhPw6M
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Possibly the circumstances of the Azores case had a deeper psychological impact on him than he would ever admit in his book. In that event, the team were able to prove that a terrible crime had been committed, despite the attempted cover-up by Mariana's parents, because there was a body.
He wrote:_
"At the time of the confessions, the man described the scene for us in a very cold way, factually, showing not the slightest regret. I had to leave my colleague to continue the interrogation alone. I was so upset. How could a father come to kill his own child? I had to get a grip on myself, I had experienced such things before.....I needed all my composure if I wanted to continue the investigation with the required objectivity. Truth and justice, that's all that remains for these children".
Do you not think after the Azores, then the Ciprianos, it was a case of déjà vu for Amaral when Madeleine was reported missing/abducted, hence his bias?
Or was it something much darker?
No.......and no.
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No.......and no.
So you are of the opinion that this particular policeman was not influenced in any way by previous experience when confronted with Madeleine's disappearance. Don't statistics & case knowledge play any part in Portuguese police work?
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So you are of the opinion that this particular policeman was not influenced in any way by previous experience when confronted with Madeleine's disappearance. Don't statistics & case knowledge play any part in Portuguese police work?
Redwood has experienced many parental murders I am sure. Does that mean he was unable to look objectively at any scenario other than parental involvement? Or Nicola Wall?
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Redwood has experienced many parental murders I am sure. Does that mean he was unable to look at any other scenario than parental involvement? Or Nicola Wall?
We are not talking about SY detectives; aren't we trying to establish why such a large part of Amaral's focus was on the McCanns during the investigation under his co-ordination?
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We are not talking about SY detectives; aren't we trying to establish why such a large part of Amaral's focus was on the McCanns during the investigation under his co-ordination?
You put forward to idea that Amaral may have been shaped into suspecting the parents by his former experiences. I merely pointed out that each and every police officer of high rank will have worked on cases such as the Azores case and still retained the ability to treat every case individually. I'm sure Amaral was no different.
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You put forward to idea that Amaral may have been shaped into suspecting the parents by his former experiences. I merely pointed out that each and every police officer of high rank will have worked on cases such as the Azores case and still retained the ability to treat every case individually. I'm sure Amaral was no different.
You don't see the similarities between the 3 aforementioned cases all involving Amaral in the investigation process?
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that his experiences of parents (especially mothers) betraying their children had affected him psychologically & clouded his judgement.
Why do you think KM was told about a 2 year sentence if she confessed, but the same thing wasn't suggested to GM?
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I would have expected "Investigation and questioning the parents would (as) the normal procedure" not the refusal to re-interview Kate the second time in a more reasonable time frame.
I still feel strongly that the bias was there early at least before the 10th of May when they interviewed Gerry but not Kate.
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I still feel strongly that the bias was there early at least before the 10th of May when they interviewed Gerry but not Kate.
On 10th May Kate, Dave and Fiona were not interviewed. Kate wasn't interviewed because;
Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days.
[Madeleine]
I don't know why the other two weren't interviewed.
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On 10th May Kate, Dave and Fiona were not interviewed. Kate wasn't interviewed because;
Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days.
[Madeleine]
I don't know why the other two weren't interviewed.
'David and Fiona may have been on the possible arguido list too at that stage. With Kate there was a "rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days" If it went ahead as planned it doesn't appear in the file.
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On 10th May Kate, Dave and Fiona were not interviewed. Kate wasn't interviewed because;
Alan Pike was concerned about my wellbeing and asked for my rescheduled interview to be postponed for a few days.
[Madeleine]
I don't know why the other two weren't interviewed.
When I looked up Alan Pike statement it was noted "Our services were requested by the Mark Warner agency. I travelled specifically to speak to them in person, and with the family and agency functionaries. Kate and Gerry had been awake for two nights when I got to know them."
So it was Mark Warner who organised Kate's psychologist. And didn't MW also organise Bell Pottinger?
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I'm asking for an opinion. Many supporters say Amaral suspected the McCanns from the 4th of May so do you believe it was bias on his part or simply what the intitial evidence suggested? And if bias where did that bias originate?
It may have originated from when Amaral was made an Arguido himself on 4th May.
Perhaps being made an Arguido because of claims made by the mother in his last missing child case influenced his decision on what would be the best outcome from his own POV in this latest case of a missing child - in relation to his own impending trial.
Although Amaral has carefully never mentioned that on 4th May he was elsewhere being made an arguido - or given his reaction to it - I find it impossible to believe that it had no affect on him. To begin with - the blow to his much vaunted 'honour' on that day must have been immense.
IMO it's reasonable to believe that being made an Arguido and knowing the possible disastrous implications of that to himself and his future career was something that was always at the forefront of his mind and may well have influenced his 'thinking' re the McCann case right from the beginning.
He should never have been put in charge of this case.
AIMHO
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It may have originated from when Amaral was made an Arguido himself on 4th May.
Perhaps being made an Arguido because of claims made by the mother in his last missing child case influenced his decision on what would be the best outcome from his own POV in this latest case of a missing child - in relation to his own impending trial.
Although Amaral has carefully never mentioned that on 4th May he was elsewhere being made an arguido - or given his reaction to it - I find it impossible to believe that it had no affect on him. To begin with - the blow to his much vaunted 'honour' on that day must have been immense.
IMO it's reasonable to believe that being made an Arguido and knowing the possible disastrous implications of that to himself and his future career was something that was always at the forefront of his mind and may well have influenced his 'thinking' re the McCann case right from the beginning.
He should never have been put in charge of this case.
AIMHO
Now there's a surprise. 8**8:/:
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It may have originated from when Amaral was made an Arguido himself on 4th May.
Perhaps being made an Arguido because of claims made by the mother in his last missing child case influenced his decision on what would be the best outcome from his own POV in this latest case of a missing child - in relation to his own impending trial.
Although Amaral has carefully never mentioned that on 4th May he was elsewhere being made an arguido - or given his reaction to it - I find it impossible to believe that it had no affect on him. To begin with - the blow to his much vaunted 'honour' on that day must have been immense.
IMO it's reasonable to believe that being made an Arguido and knowing the possible disastrous implications of that to himself and his future career was something that was always at the forefront of his mind and may well have influenced his 'thinking' re the McCann case right from the beginning.
He should never have been put in charge of this case.
AIMHO
Absolutely. He should never have been put in charge of this case. It was the first major blunder.
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You don't see the similarities between the 3 aforementioned cases all involving Amaral in the investigation process?
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that his experiences of parents (especially mothers) betraying their children had affected him psychologically & clouded his judgement.
Why do you think KM was told about a 2 year sentence if she confessed, but the same thing wasn't suggested to GM?
Similarities? Apart from they were all crimes involving children? I'm sure Redwood, Wall et al will have dealt with at least three horrendous crimes involving children. Are you saying that those detective's psychology must have been adversely affected too....or just Amaral's ?
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It may have originated from when Amaral was made an Arguido himself on 4th May.
Perhaps being made an Arguido because of claims made by the mother in his last missing child case influenced his decision on what would be the best outcome from his own POV in this latest case of a missing child - in relation to his own impending trial.
Although Amaral has carefully never mentioned that on 4th May he was elsewhere being made an arguido - or given his reaction to it - I find it impossible to believe that it had no affect on him. To begin with - the blow to his much vaunted 'honour' on that day must have been immense.
IMO it's reasonable to believe that being made an Arguido and knowing the possible disastrous implications of that to himself and his future career was something that was always at the forefront of his mind and may well have influenced his 'thinking' re the McCann case right from the beginning.
He should never have been put in charge of this case.
AIMHO
If, as you say, Amaral's thinking was coloured by him being made an arguido in the Cipriano case common sense tells you that he would steer clear of going after a mother again, especially such a well supported mother.
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If, as you say, Amaral's thinking was coloured by him being made an arguido in the Cipriano case common sense tells you that he would steer clear of going after a mother again, especially such a well supported mother.
Once bitten, twice shy.
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But he got a conviction, and probably hoped for the same in The McCann Affair.
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But he got a conviction, and probably hoped for the same in The McCann Affair.
But surely if he wished to pin the disappearance on anyone Murat was a better, safer bet?
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But surely if he wished to pin the disappearance on anyone Murat was a better, safer bet?
Even Amaral need some vestige of evidence pointing in that direction, and there was none.
And Robert Murat lawyered up pretty damn quick. He obviously knew of The Ciprianos.
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Even Amaral need some vestige of evidence pointing in that direction, and there was none.
And Robert Murat lawyered up pretty damn quick. He obviously knew of The Ciprianos.
So there must have been evidence pointing to the McCanns? Is that what you are saying?
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So there must have been evidence pointing to the McCanns? Is that what you are saying?
No, and you know that I am not. None of them were charged with anything.
Amaral at least realised that The McCanns could not have hidden or disposed of a body without local help. Robert Murat is half Brit and half Portuguese, so the perfect scapegoat to assist The McCanns, and no real stain on Portugal.
Talk about a sitting duck.
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No, and you know that I am not. None of them were charged with anything.
Amaral at least realised that The McCanns could not have hidden or disposed of a body without local help. Robert Murat is half Brit and half Portuguese, so the perfect scapegoat to assist The McCanns, and no real stain on Portugal.
Talk about a sitting duck.
Amaral has never, as far as I am aware, said the McCanns couldn't have hidden the body without local help. Do you have a cite?
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Amaral has never, as far as I am aware, said the McCanns couldn't have hidden the body without local help. Do you have a cite?
So whose local help? It wasn't possible without it. Surely even you can see that. Or do you have a theory as to how they could have done it?
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So whose local help? It wasn't possible without it. Surely even you can see that. Or do you have a theory as to how they could have done it?
Faithlilly subscribes to the "tossed the body in a bin" theory.
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So whose local help? It wasn't possible without it. Surely even you can see that. Or do you have a theory as to how they could have done it?
It was the prosecutors who made reference to lack of local knowledge:
Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.
Portuguese prosecutors.
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Faithlilly subscribes to the "tossed the body in a bin" theory.
Well, I suppose that's always possible. Dead daughter, died by accident, toss her in the nearest bin, as you might.
However, The McCanns won't have known anything much about Bin Collections, or the fact that land fills wouldn't have been searched.
If they had been, and the body was found then the cause of death would have become immediately apparent. Not a frightfully good option. Much too risky.
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So whose local help? It wasn't possible without it. Surely even you can see that. Or do you have a theory as to how they could have done it?
Of course it was possible without it unless you subscribe to the body in the car theory, which I don't, do you ?
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Of course it was possible without it unless you subscribe to the body in the car theory, which I don't, do you ?
Certainly not. Please try not to be too ridiculous.
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It was the prosecutors who made reference to lack of local knowledge:
Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.
Portuguese prosecutors.
And that bit is known to be wrong.
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Portuguese prosecutors.
And that bit is known to be wrong.
Known how?
If you are referring to 'the run', 'runs' are usually to build up a sweat and get in exercise (as well as relieving stress, if it was taken after Madeleine's abduction).
Not to peruse the local countryside.
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Portuguese prosecutors.
And that bit is known to be wrong.
It isn't known to be wrong at all
Just because they had a couple or 3 runs it does not mean they know the area
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It isn't known to be wrong at all
Just because they had a couple or 3 runs it does not mean they know the area
That's the concise version to my edit (above).
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Certainly not. Please try not to be too ridiculous.
You started it ! @)(++(*
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Portuguese prosecutors.
And that bit is known to be wrong.
OK, so if it is wrong that they (Gerry and Kate)had no local knowledge then precisely what local knowledge did they have that would be useful for them in the event of needing to hide a body (which is the reason their supposed lack of knowledge of the local area was mention in the archiving report in the first place)?
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OK, so if it is wrong that they (Gerry and Kate)had no local knowledge then precisely what local knowledge did they have that would be useful for them in the event of needing to hide a body (which is the reason their supposed lack of knowledge of the local area was mention in the archiving report in the first place)?
That is a hard question Alfie. Can you start us off?
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If, as you say, Amaral's thinking was coloured by him being made an arguido in the Cipriano case common sense tells you that he would steer clear of going after a mother again, especially such a well supported mother.
On the contrary Faith - his book shows that 'steering clear of going after a mother again' was the last thing he intended to do.
IMO his description of Kate's reaction to being called back to the police station on 4th May (the day he was made an Arguido re another mother) leaves no doubt of the adverse opinion he intended his readers to have of the mother in this case - and clearly shows the bias he had against Kate right from Day One.
AIMHO
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On the contrary Faith - his book shows that 'steering clear of going after a mother again' was the last thing he intended to do.
IMO his description of Kate's reaction to being called back to the police station on 4th May (the day he was made an Arguido re another mother) leaves no doubt of the adverse opinion he intended his readers to have of the mother in this case - and clearly shows the bias he had against Kate right from Day One.
AIMHO
Complete rubbish.
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On the contrary Faith - his book shows that 'steering clear of going after a mother again' was the last thing he intended to do.
IMO his description of Kate's reaction to being called back to the police station on 4th May (the day he was made an Arguido re another mother) leaves no doubt of the adverse opinion he intended his readers to have of the mother in this case - and clearly shows the bias he had against Kate right from Day One.
AIMHO
He was speaking as he found and if I had seen the mother of a missing child make a fuss about being driven back to the police station to potentially identify the whereabouts of that child I'd find it very odd too ( as would most people I suspect).
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He was speaking as he found and if I had seen the mother of a missing child make a fuss about being driven back to the police station to potentially identify the whereabouts of that child I'd find it very odd too ( as would most people I suspect).
All that episode demonstrated was a complete lack of empathy or understanding.
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All that episode demonstrated was a complete lack of empathy or understanding.
Lack of empathy? she claimed her daughter was abducted by ( nice people) and while these 'nice people' we looking after her the parents were out smiling, hand shaking, organising a company set up, doing a world tour, jogging, waving balloons.. who are you kidding, this couple were no where near distraught about their 'abducted' daughter . Their behaviour was absolutley outragously suspicious. Refusing to answer questions even if it harmed the search for her daughter, refusing to go and see if her daughter had been found...
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All that episode demonstrated was a complete lack of empathy or understanding.
Your daughter is missing. There is a slight chance that she has been spotted. You are asked to return to the police station to say whether it is her. I may lack empathy and understanding, IYO, but the PJ couldn't have driven fast enough to get me there if it was my daughter. In fact I would have walked there if that's what it had taken.
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Your daughter is missing. There is a slight chance that she has been spotted. You are asked to return to the police station to say whether it is her. I may lack empathy and understanding, IYO, but the PJ couldn't have driven fast enough to get me there if it was my daughter. In fact I would have walked there if that's what it had taken.
I think Kate would have preferred to walk there, rather than leave her remaining children orphans thanks to the reckless and terrifying driving of the police officer responsible for returning them to the station. BTW, at the time they had no idea what was going on, so that would have compounded the terror I would imagine. Empathy. Understanding. It helps to be able to put yourself in another's shoes. If you can't then it's difficult to make sense of many things.
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But seriously Alfie. if you were told your daughter who was suspected abducted by paedophiles, was found would you really, I mean really give a jobbie how fast the car was driving. The parents demenure and priorities are so out of the realms of reality It does cause some concern.
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I think Kate would have preferred to walk there, rather than leave her remaining children orphans thanks to the reckless and terrifying driving of the police officer responsible for returning them to the station. BTW, at the time they had no idea what was going on, so that would have compounded the terror I would imagine. Empathy. Understanding. It helps to be able to put yourself in another's shoes. If you can't then it's difficult to make sense of many things.
I think therein lies the problem. Supporters are constanly tell us and the rest of the the world you are not them you don't know how it feels, but when other like myself say Well If it as my daughter I wouldn't do that or this as they McCANNS have done, we are told we should put ourselves in their shoes.. Now come on which is it to be?!
For an instance I never left my babies alone while I went out to dinner.
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Lack of empathy? she claimed her daughter was abducted by ( nice people) and while these 'nice people' we looking after her the parents were out smiling, hand shaking, organising a company set up, doing a world tour, jogging, waving balloons.. who are you kidding, this couple were no where near distraught about their 'abducted' daughter . Their behaviour was absolutley outragously suspicious. Refusing to answer questions even if it harmed the search for her daughter, refusing to go and see if her daughter had been found...
Alfie's post was accurate.
Lack of empathy.
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Alfie's post was accurate.
Lack of empathy.
Is that supposed to be a bad thing?
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I think Kate would have preferred to walk there, rather than leave her remaining children orphans thanks to the reckless and terrifying driving of the police officer responsible for returning them to the station. BTW, at the time they had no idea what was going on, so that would have compounded the terror I would imagine. Empathy. Understanding. It helps to be able to put yourself in another's shoes. If you can't then it's difficult to make sense of many things.
It is interesting that Kate, while terrified and praying and crying, still managed to clock the speedometer from the back seat and remember exactly the speed the officer was driving at.
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Is that supposed to be a bad thing?
Lack of empathy, that is, an inability to put yourself in another's shoes, is not per se bad, no.
I lack empathy with Goncalo Amaral, Joseph Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amine (and doubtless countless others).
And though I might try, I can't really imagine what it's like to have a loved and cherished daughter abducted.
So I suppose I can't really empathise with the McCanns, either.
But I can (and do!) sympathise with the McCanns.
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The topic is, "Was Amaral Biased Against the McCanns and If So Why?"
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I think Kate would have preferred to walk there, rather than leave her remaining children orphans thanks to the reckless and terrifying driving of the police officer responsible for returning them to the station. BTW, at the time they had no idea what was going on, so that would have compounded the terror I would imagine. Empathy. Understanding. It helps to be able to put yourself in another's shoes. If you can't then it's difficult to make sense of many things.
And yet, the following day......
I remember slumping on one of the dining chairs in the apartment, looking out through the window over the sea. I had an overwhelming urge to swim out across the ocean, as hard and as fast as I could; to swim and swim and swim until I was so far out and so exhausted I could just allow the water to pull me under and relieve me of this torment
[Madeleine]
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Lack of empathy, that is, an inability to put yourself in another's shoes, is not per se bad, no.
I lack empathy with Goncalo Amaral, Joseph Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amine (and doubtless countless others).
And though I might try, I can't really imagine what it's like to have a loved and cherished daughter abducted.
So I suppose I can't really empathise with the McCanns, either.
But I can (and do!) sympathise with the McCanns.
It is quite sad, and it says everything about you, that you have placed Amaral in the same list as mass murderers.
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Bias;
inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair.
Was it unfair of Amaral to suspect the McCanns? That depends on whether their words and actions are seen as consistent, coherent and believable.
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Bias;
inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair.
Was it unfair of Amaral to suspect the McCanns? That depends on whether their words and actions are seen as consistent, coherent and believable.
He was doing his job.
Investigation of the parents would be standard.
What is also obvious, is that the parents did not want to be investigated.
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Bias;
inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair.
Was it unfair of Amaral to suspect the McCanns? That depends on whether their words and actions are seen as consistent, coherent and believable.
It would have been unbiased for Amaral to have investigated Kate and Gerry McCann. To do so it would have been unbiased to have initially constituted them arguidos to allow them the full protection of the law. It would have been unbiased if once it became clear there was no substantive evidence against either Kate or Gerry to have progressed the investigation to follow available evidence.
If that wasn't done it was bias to pursue only that one line of enquiry. Particularly when it is known there were at least 195 different investigative possibilities to be followed any one of which might have been the key to finding Madeleine McCann.
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It would have been unbiased for Amaral to have investigated Kate and Gerry McCann. To do so it would have been unbiased to have initially constituted them arguidos to allow them the full protection of the law. It would have been unbiased if once it became clear there was no substantive evidence against either Kate or Gerry to have progressed the investigation to follow available evidence.
If that wasn't done it was bias to pursue only one line of enquiry. Particularly when it is known there were at least 195 different investigative possibilities to be followed any one of which might have been the key to finding Madeleine McCann.
Yoiu assume she could have been found, and that is supposition.
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Yoiu assume she could have been found, and that is supposition.
The supposition always is that a missing child can be found ... else why bother to look?
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The supposition always is that a missing child can be found ... else why bother to look?
She has been, fort nearly 10 years.
NOTHING.
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She has been, fort nearly 10 years.
NOTHING.
Hidden in plain sight!
-
Hidden in plain sight!
Of course Rob.
Is that in that village 10 miles from PDL ?
or perhaps Alpha Centuari II ?
-
Of course Rob.
Is that in that village 10 miles from PDL ?
or perhaps Alpha Centuari II ?
The right option seems obvious.
-
He was doing his job.
Investigation of the parents would be standard.
What is also obvious, is that the parents did not want to be investigated.
Those points are very valid and that is why the Portuguese police have received so much vitriol.
It is basic police procedure to investigate family whenever a child disappears under suspicious circumstances and that happened. Kate McCann's reference to the GNR officers as tweedle dee and tweedle dum and to PJ detective Ricardo Paiva as a fcuking tosser in her book 'Madeleine' was rather pathetic and lost her much credibility imo.
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Those points are very valid and that is why the Portuguese police have received so much vitriol.
It is basic police procedure to investigate family whenever a child disappears under suspicious circumstances and that happened.
Of course it is correct procedure and I don't think anyone disputes that
It's the accusations made with a complete misunderstanding of the evidence that is the problem
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Of course it is correct procedure and I don't think anyone disputes that
It's the accusations made with a complete misunderstanding of the evidence that is the problem
I think 'complete misunderstanding of the evidence' is unsupported Dave. Amaral found himself under extreme pressure from day one so it was inevitable that some misunderstandings would occur but that applies to everyone involved in the case. For what its worth I think he was wrong to make unproven accusations in a book which added nothing to the investigation. He should have stuck to the established facts including the conspiracy against him by operatives employed by the parents. That would have made for a much more interesting read.
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I think 'complete misunderstanding of the evidence' is unsupported Dave. Amaral found himself under extreme pressure from day one so it was inevitable that some misunderstandings would occur but that applies to everyone involved in the case. For what its worth I think he was wrong to make unproven accusations in a book which added nothing to the investigation. He should have stuck to the established facts including the conspiracy against him by operatives employed by the parents. That would have made for a much more interesting read.
He said he could prove Maddie died in the apartment
He thought the evidence supported that
It didn't
He couldn't prove anything
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It would have been unbiased for Amaral to have investigated Kate and Gerry McCann. To do so it would have been unbiased to have initially constituted them arguidos to allow them the full protection of the law. It would have been unbiased if once it became clear there was no substantive evidence against either Kate or Gerry to have progressed the investigation to follow available evidence.
If that wasn't done it was bias to pursue only that one line of enquiry. Particularly when it is known there were at least 195 different investigative possibilities to be followed any one of which might have been the key to finding Madeleine McCann.
"it is known there were at least 195 different investigative opportunities to be followed"? Isn't this OG speak? Was Amaral to predict OG and what OG would do? Should he have had a team of officers hand-trawl the 3 areas of Luz that OG did - surely that must be at least one of the 195 investigative possibilities?
Then there is Rebelo. And the archiving report. Did Rebelo give up because he was biased with 195 leads to follow? How many further investigative opportunities does the archiving report mention? I thought it was none, not 195.
One cannot stick Amaral for OG operational procedures.
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"it is known there were at least 195 different investigative opportunities to be followed"? Isn't this OG speak? Was Amaral to predict OG and what OG would do? Should he have had a team of officers hand-trawl the 3 areas of Luz that OG did - surely that must be at least one of the 195 investigative possibilities?
Then there is Rebelo. And the archiving report. Did Rebelo give up because he was biased with 195 leads to follow? How many further investigative opportunities does the archiving report mention? I thought it was none, not 195.
One cannot stick Amaral for OG operational procedures.
Under normal circumstances fresh eyes can pick up on overlooked significances. Which is why periodically, cold cases are reviewed.
In Madeleine's case review would have been difficult to assess the request for a priest being a cause for suspicion ... unless viewed through the prism of the bias governing the observation ... which was also an indicator of the quality of the investigators and as a result of the investigation.
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Under normal circumstances fresh eyes can pick up on overlooked significances. Which is why periodically, cold cases are reviewed.
In Madeleine's case review would have been difficult to assess the request for a priest being a cause for suspicion ... unless viewed through the prism of the bias governing the observation ... which was also an indicator of the quality of the investigators and as a result of the investigation.
Rebelo's team was fresh eyes.
His team did not predict OG's claim. The archiving report did not predict OG's claim.
That Amaral's team could not predict OG's claim is not evidence of bias, which is what this thread is about.
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Under normal circumstances fresh eyes can pick up on overlooked significances. Which is why periodically, cold cases are reviewed.
In Madeleine's case review would have been difficult to assess the request for a priest being a cause for suspicion ... unless viewed through the prism of the bias governing the observation ... which was also an indicator of the quality of the investigators and as a result of the investigation.
Yes, Kate wanted a priest but they couldn't find one for her. More outrage and cursing ensued;
Reply ”Err I think, I think, I think they stayed there because it was very late or you know early, early morning and Kate wanted a priest, they couldn’t find a priest which, well I won’t, I won’t say what her language was but I’m, you know, Portugal’s a Catholic country and err no priest.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
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Rebelo's team was fresh eyes.
His team did not predict OG's claim. The archiving report did not predict OG's claim.
That Amaral's team could not predict OG's claim is not evidence of bias, which is what this thread is about.
Rebelo was playing catch up against the clock. The first duties Rebelo's team had to address was not to settle in front of a screen to scroll through the files to familiarise themselves with the case and cross check references. It was to sort out and categorise a jumble of disorganised papers scattered throughout and to attempt to place them in some sort of order.
The scale of that operation can be judged by the files we have seen and must have eaten into any investigation time and staffing available. I think it is inevitable that information was lost.
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Rebelo was playing catch up against the clock. The first duties Rebelo's team had to address was not to settle in front of a screen to scroll through the files to familiarise themselves with the case and cross check references. It was to sort out and categorise a jumble of disorganised papers scattered throughout and to attempt to place them in some sort of order.
The scale of that operation can be judged by the files we have seen and must have eaten into any investigation time and staffing available. I think it is inevitable that information was lost.
1 You were present at the offices to witness this disarray presumably? or are we just guessing again?
2 Why?
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Rebelo was playing catch up against the clock. The first duties Rebelo's team had to address was not to settle in front of a screen to scroll through the files to familiarise themselves with the case and cross check references. It was to sort out and categorise a jumble of disorganised papers scattered throughout and to attempt to place them in some sort of order.
The scale of that operation can be judged by the files we have seen and must have eaten into any investigation time and staffing available. I think it is inevitable that information was lost.
To be honest, what Rebelo's first task was is not relevant to OG's 195 leads. It is what he left at the end.
According to the archiving report there were no further diligences to be carried out, as a reconstruction had been refused.
Being unaware of OG's 195 leads does not make Amaral biased any more than it makes Rebelo biased.
-
1 You were present at the offices to witness this disarray presumably? or are we just guessing again?
2 Why?
- As you well know, if I am guessing or expressing an opinion, I have the courtesy to say so.
That is not necessary when reporting facts as recorded by those who were there and who were appalled by the evidence of the chaos the Amaral investigation had left in its wake. - You ask why I think it inevitable that information must have been lost from piles of unfiled documents scattered on chairs and desks ... in reply I might ask you to consider why filing systems exist; initially in filing cabinets containing hard copy and now electronically.
Given that information can be misfiled and lost ... what chance papers which are systematically added to an existing pile.
But you knew that anyway.
I have provided links to quotes by the people who were there and witnessed the chaos left by Amaral's team and inherited by Rebelo ... no doubt you missed them.
As far as I know it is generally accepted that Amaral led a botched investigation ... mainly I think because he failed to utilise resources available to him.
- He could have had the use of the British dogs in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance ~ they were offered ~ they were on standby ~ they were refused.
- He could have organised a reconstruction of the third when many of the original players were available including the Ocean Club staff and the Smiths whose memories of their experience might have been jogged a fortnight before it was. He failed to organise that.
- He did not bring in the Portuguese specialists he should have.
To investigate the possibility of Madeleine's murder Rebelo brought in two homicide experts ... that none of the arguidos were interrogated, arrested or charged as a result suggests that no evidence against them was uncovered,
or even indication of Madeleine's demise.
It is my opinion that Amaral is incapable of recognising his limitations; his failures in Madeleine's case cannot be contemplated as anything other than huge conspiracy against him and his bias against Kate and Gerry McCann from his first action in the case and beyond has been directed by his incompetence and his bias and that of some of his officers, sixty of whom Rebelo immediately sacked on taking over.
INEPT.. INCOMPETENT.. I'M INCANDESCENT; EXCLUSIVE MADDIE: SHOCK NEW CLAIMS AGAINST POLICE Gerry 'S Rage over Claim Cops Didn't Check Evidence Key Papers 'Scattered All over the Floor ' Weeks Behind in Putting Records on Crime Computer
Byline: By STEWART WHITTINGHAM
HORRIFIED Kate and Gerry McCann were incandescent with rage last night after cops were accused of a catalogue of incompetence in the hunt for their missing daughter Madeleine.
Insiders claim vital evidence was ditched by boozy officers and crucial documents were ignored.
And weeks were wasted clearing up the mess to get the search for four-year-old Maddie back on track.
The appalling extent of the shambles came to light when Goncalo Amaral, the police chief leading the fivemonth investigat i on into Maddie's disappearance, was fired.
Sources said replacement Paulo Rebelo, 45, arrived in the resort of Praia da Luz to find:
CRUCIAL papers scattered over the floor of police offices;
A HUGE backlog of files that took two weeks to put on computer; and
BIASED officerswho were convinced Kate and Gerry had killed Maddie. …
To read the full text of this article and others like it, subscribe today!
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-170084243.html
-
- As you well know, if I am guessing or expressing an opinion, I have the courtesy to say so.
That is not necessary when reporting facts as recorded by those who were there and who were appalled by the evidence of the chaos the Amaral investigation had left in its wake. - You ask why I think it inevitable that information must have been lost from piles of unfiled documents scattered on chairs and desks ... in reply I might ask you to consider why filing systems exist; initially in filing cabinets containing hard copy and now electronically.
Given that information can be misfiled and lost ... what chance papers which are systematically added to an existing pile.
But you knew that anyway.
I have provided links to quotes by the people who were there and witnessed the chaos left by Amaral's team and inherited by Rebelo ... no doubt you missed them.
As far as I know it is generally accepted that Amaral led a botched investigation ... mainly I think because he failed to utilise resources available to him.
- He could have had the use of the British dogs in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance ~ they were offered ~ they were on standby ~ they were refused.
- He could have organised a reconstruction of the third when many of the original players were available including the Ocean Club staff and the Smiths whose memories of their experience might have been jogged a fortnight before it was. He failed to organise that.
- He did not bring in the Portuguese specialists he should have.
To investigate the possibility of Madeleine's murder Rebelo brought in two homicide experts ... that none of the arguidos were interrogated, arrested or charged as a result suggests that no evidence against them was uncovered,
or even indication of Madeleine's demise.
It is my opinion that Amaral is incapable of recognising his limitations; his failures in Madeleine's case cannot be contemplated as anything other than huge conspiracy against him and his bias against Kate and Gerry McCann from his first action in the case and beyond has been directed by his incompetence and his bias and that of some of his officers, sixty of whom he immediately sacked on taking over.
INEPT.. INCOMPETENT.. I'M INCANDESCENT; EXCLUSIVE MADDIE: SHOCK NEW CLAIMS AGAINST POLICE Gerry 'S Rage over Claim Cops Didn't Check Evidence Key Papers 'Scattered All over the Floor ' Weeks Behind in Putting Records on Crime Computer
Byline: By STEWART WHITTINGHAM
HORRIFIED Kate and Gerry McCann were incandescent with rage last night after cops were accused of a catalogue of incompetence in the hunt for their missing daughter Madeleine.
Insiders claim vital evidence was ditched by boozy officers and crucial documents were ignored.
And weeks were wasted clearing up the mess to get the search for four-year-old Maddie back on track.
The appalling extent of the shambles came to light when Goncalo Amaral, the police chief leading the fivemonth investigat i on into Maddie's disappearance, was fired.
Sources said replacement Paulo Rebelo, 45, arrived in the resort of Praia da Luz to find:
CRUCIAL papers scattered over the floor of police offices;
A HUGE backlog of files that took two weeks to put on computer; and
BIASED officerswho were convinced Kate and Gerry had killed Maddie. …
To read the full text of this article and others like it, subscribe today!
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-170084243.html
'..As far as I know it is generally accepted that Amaral led a botched investigation ..'
Accepted by who exactly ?
Who started the ball rolling. let's start with :
The McCann's, obviously.
Their supporters and some of the media.
As to the biased officers who were convinced the McCann's killed Madeleine , who are they ?
Let's not forget the sources. *&*%£
I wonder who they were. 8(*(
-
- As you well know, if I am guessing or expressing an opinion, I have the courtesy to say so.
That is not necessary when reporting facts as recorded by those who were there and who were appalled by the evidence of the chaos the Amaral investigation had left in its wake. - You ask why I think it inevitable that information must have been lost from piles of unfiled documents scattered on chairs and desks ... in reply I might ask you to consider why filing systems exist; initially in filing cabinets containing hard copy and now electronically.
Given that information can be misfiled and lost ... what chance papers which are systematically added to an existing pile.
But you knew that anyway.
I have provided links to quotes by the people who were there and witnessed the chaos left by Amaral's team and inherited by Rebelo ... no doubt you missed them.
As far as I know it is generally accepted that Amaral led a botched investigation ... mainly I think because he failed to utilise resources available to him.
- He could have had the use of the British dogs in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance ~ they were offered ~ they were on standby ~ they were refused.
- He could have organised a reconstruction of the third when many of the original players were available including the Ocean Club staff and the Smiths whose memories of their experience might have been jogged a fortnight before it was. He failed to organise that.
- He did not bring in the Portuguese specialists he should have.
To investigate the possibility of Madeleine's murder Rebelo brought in two homicide experts ... that none of the arguidos were interrogated, arrested or charged as a result suggests that no evidence against them was uncovered,
or even indication of Madeleine's demise.
It is my opinion that Amaral is incapable of recognising his limitations; his failures in Madeleine's case cannot be contemplated as anything other than huge conspiracy against him and his bias against Kate and Gerry McCann from his first action in the case and beyond has been directed by his incompetence and his bias and that of some of his officers, sixty of whom Rebelo immediately sacked on taking over.
INEPT.. INCOMPETENT.. I'M INCANDESCENT; EXCLUSIVE MADDIE: SHOCK NEW CLAIMS AGAINST POLICE Gerry 'S Rage over Claim Cops Didn't Check Evidence Key Papers 'Scattered All over the Floor ' Weeks Behind in Putting Records on Crime Computer
Byline: By STEWART WHITTINGHAM
HORRIFIED Kate and Gerry McCann were incandescent with rage last night after cops were accused of a catalogue of incompetence in the hunt for their missing daughter Madeleine.
Insiders claim vital evidence was ditched by boozy officers and crucial documents were ignored.
And weeks were wasted clearing up the mess to get the search for four-year-old Maddie back on track.
The appalling extent of the shambles came to light when Goncalo Amaral, the police chief leading the fivemonth investigat i on into Maddie's disappearance, was fired.
Sources said replacement Paulo Rebelo, 45, arrived in the resort of Praia da Luz to find:
CRUCIAL papers scattered over the floor of police offices;
A HUGE backlog of files that took two weeks to put on computer; and
BIASED officerswho were convinced Kate and Gerry had killed Maddie. …
To read the full text of this article and others like it, subscribe today!
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-170084243.html
So said the People (but with no named source of course).
-
So said the People (but with no named source of course).
'..As far as I know it is generally accepted that Amaral led a botched investigation ..'
Accepted by who exactly ?
Who started the ball rolling. let's start with :
The McCann's, obviously.
Their supporters and some of the media.
As to the biased officers who were convinced the McCann's killed Madeleine , who are they ?
Let's not forget the sources. *&*%£
I wonder who they were. 8(*(
Let's start with Mark Harrison.
Harrison's brief:
1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains.
2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension.
3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching.
4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann as applicable to the latest intelligence and inform tion provided.
5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection.
6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann.
7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.
Then Harrison says this
In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.
Amaral said in an interview with a Spanish magazine that (sic) we talked about death by others not murder, and, himself insinuated that the McCanns may have accidently killed Madeleine using Calpol, concealing her body (specifically Kate); then driving it in the Renault Scenic to some (unknown) location for final interment.
Oh, having first (Gerry) hidden (Amaral's exact word) Madeleine's body on the beach.
-
- As you well know, if I am guessing or expressing an opinion, I have the courtesy to say so.
That is not necessary when reporting facts as recorded by those who were there and who were appalled by the evidence of the chaos the Amaral investigation had left in its wake. - You ask why I think it inevitable that information must have been lost from piles of unfiled documents scattered on chairs and desks ... in reply I might ask you to consider why filing systems exist; initially in filing cabinets containing hard copy and now electronically.
Given that information can be misfiled and lost ... what chance papers which are systematically added to an existing pile.
But you knew that anyway.
I have provided links to quotes by the people who were there and witnessed the chaos left by Amaral's team and inherited by Rebelo ... no doubt you missed them.
As far as I know it is generally accepted that Amaral led a botched investigation ... mainly I think because he failed to utilise resources available to him.
- He could have had the use of the British dogs in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance ~ they were offered ~ they were on standby ~ they were refused.
- He could have organised a reconstruction of the third when many of the original players were available including the Ocean Club staff and the Smiths whose memories of their experience might have been jogged a fortnight before it was. He failed to organise that.
- He did not bring in the Portuguese specialists he should have.
To investigate the possibility of Madeleine's murder Rebelo brought in two homicide experts ... that none of the arguidos were interrogated, arrested or charged as a result suggests that no evidence against them was uncovered,
or even indication of Madeleine's demise.
It is my opinion that Amaral is incapable of recognising his limitations; his failures in Madeleine's case cannot be contemplated as anything other than huge conspiracy against him and his bias against Kate and Gerry McCann from his first action in the case and beyond has been directed by his incompetence and his bias and that of some of his officers, sixty of whom Rebelo immediately sacked on taking over.
INEPT.. INCOMPETENT.. I'M INCANDESCENT; EXCLUSIVE MADDIE: SHOCK NEW CLAIMS AGAINST POLICE Gerry 'S Rage over Claim Cops Didn't Check Evidence Key Papers 'Scattered All over the Floor ' Weeks Behind in Putting Records on Crime Computer
Byline: By STEWART WHITTINGHAM
HORRIFIED Kate and Gerry McCann were incandescent with rage last night after cops were accused of a catalogue of incompetence in the hunt for their missing daughter Madeleine.
Insiders claim vital evidence was ditched by boozy officers and crucial documents were ignored.
And weeks were wasted clearing up the mess to get the search for four-year-old Maddie back on track.
The appalling extent of the shambles came to light when Goncalo Amaral, the police chief leading the fivemonth investigat i on into Maddie's disappearance, was fired.
Sources said replacement Paulo Rebelo, 45, arrived in the resort of Praia da Luz to find:
CRUCIAL papers scattered over the floor of police offices;
A HUGE backlog of files that took two weeks to put on computer; and
BIASED officerswho were convinced Kate and Gerry had killed Maddie. …
To read the full text of this article and others like it, subscribe today!
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-170084243.html
Right OK then you were not there and only know what you have read in The People.
Nuff said on that score then.
-
Right OK then you were not there and only know what you have read in The People.
Nuff said on that score then.
What about what we read in Amaral's book?
-
What about what we read Amaral's book?
-
What about what we read Amaral's book?
For accuracy, it's probably below the standard of The People
-
For accuracy, it's probably below the standard of The People
I can't comment.
-
- As you well know, if I am guessing or expressing an opinion, I have the courtesy to say so.
That is not necessary when reporting facts as recorded by those who were there and who were appalled by the evidence of the chaos the Amaral investigation had left in its wake. - You ask why I think it inevitable that information must have been lost from piles of unfiled documents scattered on chairs and desks ... in reply I might ask you to consider why filing systems exist; initially in filing cabinets containing hard copy and now electronically.
Given that information can be misfiled and lost ... what chance papers which are systematically added to an existing pile.
But you knew that anyway.
I have provided links to quotes by the people who were there and witnessed the chaos left by Amaral's team and inherited by Rebelo ... no doubt you missed them.
As far as I know it is generally accepted that Amaral led a botched investigation ... mainly I think because he failed to utilise resources available to him.
- He could have had the use of the British dogs in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance ~ they were offered ~ they were on standby ~ they were refused.
- He could have organised a reconstruction of the third when many of the original players were available including the Ocean Club staff and the Smiths whose memories of their experience might have been jogged a fortnight before it was. He failed to organise that.
- He did not bring in the Portuguese specialists he should have.
To investigate the possibility of Madeleine's murder Rebelo brought in two homicide experts ... that none of the arguidos were interrogated, arrested or charged as a result suggests that no evidence against them was uncovered,
or even indication of Madeleine's demise.
It is my opinion that Amaral is incapable of recognising his limitations; his failures in Madeleine's case cannot be contemplated as anything other than huge conspiracy against him and his bias against Kate and Gerry McCann from his first action in the case and beyond has been directed by his incompetence and his bias and that of some of his officers, sixty of whom Rebelo immediately sacked on taking over.
INEPT.. INCOMPETENT.. I'M INCANDESCENT; EXCLUSIVE MADDIE: SHOCK NEW CLAIMS AGAINST POLICE Gerry 'S Rage over Claim Cops Didn't Check Evidence Key Papers 'Scattered All over the Floor ' Weeks Behind in Putting Records on Crime Computer
Byline: By STEWART WHITTINGHAM
HORRIFIED Kate and Gerry McCann were incandescent with rage last night after cops were accused of a catalogue of incompetence in the hunt for their missing daughter Madeleine.
Insiders claim vital evidence was ditched by boozy officers and crucial documents were ignored.
And weeks were wasted clearing up the mess to get the search for four-year-old Maddie back on track.
The appalling extent of the shambles came to light when Goncalo Amaral, the police chief leading the fivemonth investigat i on into Maddie's disappearance, was fired.
Sources said replacement Paulo Rebelo, 45, arrived in the resort of Praia da Luz to find:
CRUCIAL papers scattered over the floor of police offices;
A HUGE backlog of files that took two weeks to put on computer; and
BIASED officerswho were convinced Kate and Gerry had killed Maddie. …
To read the full text of this article and others like it, subscribe today!
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-170084243.html
You wonder why the PJ were so inundated with information?
-
You wonder why the PJ were so inundated with information?
I'm sorry ... I haven't a clue what you are on about.
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I'm sorry ... I haven't a clue what you are on about.
It happened in NZ too where there was a double murder associated with a holiday resort, there are just too many people coming and going it needs a lot of resources to cope with the information.
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Amaral said in an interview with a Spanish magazine that (sic) we talked about death by others not murder, and, himself insinuated that the McCanns may have accidently killed Madeleine using Calpol, concealing her body (specifically Kate); then driving it in the Renault Scenic to some (unknown) location for final interment.
Oh, having first (Gerry) hidden (Amaral's exact word) Madeleine's body on the beach.
It has been claimed that Amaral made no such insinuation in respect of Calpol so below I reproduce his exact words from his book, 'The Truth of the Lie'.
"The mother admits having taken some to Portugal. She insists though that there is no
calming effect, its being composed solely of paracetamol, and that she did not give any
of it to her daughter during the holiday. At the time of her disappearance, Madeleine
was sleeping in the same room as the twins. The latter, in spite of the noise, the mother's
screaming and the comings and goings, did not wake up, as if they had been given
sedatives. Would there not be a link between that difficulty in falling asleep and
Madeleine's tragic end?"
Looks like a definite insinuation to me otherwise why mention Calpol at all?
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It has been claimed that Amaral made no such insinuation in respect of Calpol so below I reproduce his exact words from his book, 'The Truth of the Lie'.
"The mother admits having taken some to Portugal. She insists though that there is no
calming effect, its being composed solely of paracetamol, and that she did not give any
of it to her daughter during the holiday. At the time of her disappearance, Madeleine
was sleeping in the same room as the twins. The latter, in spite of the noise, the mother's
screaming and the comings and goings, did not wake up, as if they had been given
sedatives. Would there not be a link between that difficulty in falling asleep and
Madeleine's tragic end?"
Looks like a definite insinuation to me otherwise why mention Calpol at all?
It is difficult to find a chapter in Amaral's book which does not contain insinuations against either Kate (especially Kate) or Gerry, or both. If Amaral was not biased, why was so much of the story of the investigation under his coordination related to the McCanns?
-
It has been claimed that Amaral made no such insinuation in respect of Calpol so below I reproduce his exact words from his book, 'The Truth of the Lie'.
"The mother admits having taken some to Portugal. She insists though that there is no
calming effect, its being composed solely of paracetamol, and that she did not give any
of it to her daughter during the holiday. At the time of her disappearance, Madeleine
was sleeping in the same room as the twins. The latter, in spite of the noise, the mother's
screaming and the comings and goings, did not wake up, as if they had been given
sedatives. Would there not be a link between that difficulty in falling asleep and
Madeleine's tragic end?"
Looks like a definite insinuation to me otherwise why mention Calpol at all?
There is a difference between an insinuation and a question.
Looks more like a question being posed.
A missing child.
Disappeared without trace.
Two other children unresponsive, despite the mayhem around them.
Medicines, including Calpol in the apartment.
Such circumstances would raise questions and result in possible hypotheses , would it not.
The other siblings should have been tested.
A failure on the investigations part.
The parents didn't press for that.
Hardly surprising.
They had tests carried out months later. They were irrelevant.
-
The test could have been effective. It is only with hindsight we can say they were ineffective.
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The test could have been effective. It is only with hindsight we can say they were ineffective.
It was a major failure not testing the other two children.
By all parties concerned.
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It was a major failure not testing the other two children.
By all parties concerned.
with hindsight I would say the mccanns would agree with you
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It has been claimed that Amaral made no such insinuation in respect of Calpol so below I reproduce his exact words from his book, 'The Truth of the Lie'.
"The mother admits having taken some to Portugal. She insists though that there is no
calming effect, its being composed solely of paracetamol, and that she did not give any
of it to her daughter during the holiday. At the time of her disappearance, Madeleine
was sleeping in the same room as the twins. The latter, in spite of the noise, the mother's
screaming and the comings and goings, did not wake up, as if they had been given
sedatives. Would there not be a link between that difficulty in falling asleep and
Madeleine's tragic end?"
Looks like a definite insinuation to me otherwise why mention Calpol at all?
Exactly - and in the paragraph before the one you quote - Amaral makes more than an insinuation IMO - he claims as a fact that :-
Quote
The paternal grandfather stated that Kate gave the little girl - and also the twins - Calpol, a medication designed to facilitate falling asleep.
End
A very biased distortion of the actual facts IMO.
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Exactly - and in the paragraph before the one you quote - Amaral makes more than an insinuation IMO - he claims as a fact that :-
Quote
The paternal grandfather stated that Kate gave the little girl - and also the twins - Calpol, a medication designed to facilitate falling asleep.
End
A very biased distortion of the actual facts IMO.
What facts.
You weren't there.
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Exactly - and in the paragraph before the one you quote - Amaral makes more than an insinuation IMO - he claims as a fact that :-
Quote
The paternal grandfather stated that Kate gave the little girl - and also the twins - Calpol, a medication designed to facilitate falling asleep.
End
A very biased distortion of the actual facts IMO.
Where did that quote come from?
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An interesting read from Portugal:
https://www.algarvedailynews.com/cases/madeleine-mccann/8605-amaral-s-libel-win-opens-pandora-s-box-on-national-television
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An interesting read from Portugal:
https://www.algarvedailynews.com/cases/madeleine-mccann/8605-amaral-s-libel-win-opens-pandora-s-box-on-national-television
Thanks for that article.
Quite interesting. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
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It has been claimed that Amaral made no such insinuation in respect of Calpol so below I reproduce his exact words from his book, 'The Truth of the Lie'.
"The mother admits having taken some to Portugal. She insists though that there is no
calming effect, its being composed solely of paracetamol, and that she did not give any
of it to her daughter during the holiday. At the time of her disappearance, Madeleine
was sleeping in the same room as the twins. The latter, in spite of the noise, the mother's
screaming and the comings and goings, did not wake up, as if they had been given
sedatives. Would there not be a link between that difficulty in falling asleep and
Madeleine's tragic end?"
Looks like a definite insinuation to me otherwise why mention Calpol at all?
Yes, thank you John.
In one of his interviews, Amaral says Madeleine (sic) could have had an accident with calpol.
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Where did that quote come from?
Scroll down to the sub-heading, Madeleine sleeps badly:
http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/true-victim-is-missing-child.html
ETA: In fact, Madeleine's grandfather (and Kate's father) merely confirmed what Kate and Gerry had, themselves, already told the PJ; that they occasionally used calpol (standard paracetamol, for relief of pain, not inducing sleep) with the children.
To compound the libel, Amaral added this:
Recently, the same laboratory put Calpol Night on the market, whose ingredients clearly list that it contains an antihistamine.
Calpol night was not even on the market at the time of that holiday.
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Scroll down to the sub-heading, Madeleine sleeps badly:
http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/true-victim-is-missing-child.html
ETA: In fact, Madeleine's grandfather (and Kate's father) merely confirmed what Kate and Gerry had, themselves, already told the PJ; that they occasionally used calpol (standard paracetamol, for relief of pain, not inducing sleep) with the children.
To compound the libel, Amaral added this:
Calpol night was not even on the market at the time of that holiday.
He thinks that on Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom with KATE as she [K] had told him that one or both twins had cried making much noise.
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her 'why didn't you come last night when Sean and I were crying'?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Madeleine would often get up in the night and go and sleep in the same bed as err Kate and Gerry so I think their sleep patterns were pretty disturbed and I always marvelled at how well, I mean I'd be so much more tired than they were and, and grouchy but they never were.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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An interesting read from Portugal:
https://www.algarvedailynews.com/cases/madeleine-mccann/8605-amaral-s-libel-win-opens-pandora-s-box-on-national-television
It has been pointed out this was a consequence of the Appeal Court decision not the Supreme Court.
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It has been pointed out this was a consequence of the Appeal Court decision not the Supreme Court.
So? It's just as valid.
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So? It's just as valid.
Old news
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It has been pointed out this was a consequence of the Appeal Court decision not the Supreme Court.
Article a year old.
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Thanks for that article.
Quite interesting. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Amaral stressed nonetheless that the book ‘Maddie: The Truth of the Lie’ that the McCanns have sought to ban is not ‘his truth’ - nor indeed factual truth - but the opinion of the PJ in September of 2007 when it became clear their efforts were about to be archived.
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Amaral stressed nonetheless that the book ‘Maddie: The Truth of the Lie’ that the McCanns have sought to ban is not ‘his truth’ - nor indeed factual truth - but the opinion of the PJ in September of 2007 when it became clear their efforts were about to be archived.
Why such a long gap (almost a year) between (by that reckoning) the decision being taken that the process would be archived and it actually being archived on (from memory) 4 August 2008?
And I would dispute that Joao Carlos was a part of that, apparent, 'consensus'.
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So...have we reached any conclusion.
1. Was Amaral biased towards the McCanns and if so, at what stage in the investigation did that occur?
2. Did Amaral's prior experience in the Cipriano case, which also started out as a child abduction, influence his actions?
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So...have we reached any conclusion.
1. Was Amaral biased towards the McCanns and if so, at what stage in the investigation did that occur?
2. Did Amaral's prior experience in the Cipriano case, which also started out as a child abduction, influence his actions?
Easy.
McCann supporters will say yes to both. Those who question the McCann's, NO.
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So...have we reached any conclusion.
1. Was Amaral biased towards the McCanns and if so, at what stage in the investigation did that occur?
2. Did Amaral's prior experience in the Cipriano case, which also started out as a child abduction, influence his actions?
These questions IMO are irrelevant because they are made under the assumption that everything in the investigation was done in accordance with Gonçalo Amaral's orders. He did not control the investigation, that is the responsibility of the judges. All decisions were made by the higher ups, not by him. He did not steer the investigation in certain directions, as some would believe. This was not a "Morse" or "Lewis" episode with one policeman making all of the decisions. It was a group effort.
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These questions IMO are irrelevant because they are made under the assumption that everything in the investigation was done in accordance with Gonçalo Amaral's orders. He did not control the investigation, that is the responsibility of the judges. All decisions were made by the higher ups, not by him. He did not steer the investigation in certain directions, as some would believe. This was not a "Morse" or "Lewis" episode with one policeman making all of the decisions. It was a group effort.
This is patently rubbish. The Judges don't do the investigation. They take the word of The Coordinator.
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This is patently rubbish. The Judges don't do the investigation. They take the word of The Coordinator.
You can prove that Eleanor ?
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Easy.
McCann supporters will say yes to both. Those who question the McCann's, NO.
I would say no to both
He was just a very poor detective imo
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This is patently rubbish. The Judges don't do the investigation. They take the word of The Coordinator.
As I understand it the PJ in Portugal are responsible for crime prevention and investigation under the supervision of the Public Prosecution Authority. As coordinator, Gonçalo Amaral would have been directed by the public prosecutor but had an almost free hand in how that investigation developed.
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I would say no to both
He was just a very poor detective imo
That is not borne out by his record I'm afraid.
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This is patently rubbish. The Judges don't do the investigation. They take the word of The Coordinator.
The Co-ordinator is directed by his bosses In his words;
Two deputy national directors and the co-ordinator of the Portimao dept of Criminal Investigation will direct the investigations. [Truth of the lie]
He was outranked by the other two, so whatever he did he did with their agreement.
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That is not borne out by his record I'm afraid.
Do we have his full record and the source
It's borne out in the two cases we know about
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The Co-ordinator is directed by his bosses In his words;
Two deputy national directors and the co-ordinator of the Portimao dept of Criminal Investigation will direct the investigations. [Truth of the lie]
He was outranked by the other two, so whatever he did he did with their agreement.
I think you might find that The Coordinator only went to The Directors after he had decided.
Not that I really care. Someone will eventually have to do something about Portuguese Justice. I just pity the poor people who are subjected to it.
And it would take me a whole page to tell you what I actually think.
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I think you might find that The Coordinator only went to The Directors after he had decided.
Not that I really care. Someone will eventually have to do something about Portuguese Justice. I just pity the poor people who are subjected to it.
And it would take me a whole page to tell you what I actually think.
Do you have anything to support that assertion?
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Do you have anything to support that assertion?
He certainly didn't go to them before he decided.
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He certainly didn't go to them before he decided.
In your opinion?
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In your opinion?
Oh, I see. The Senior Detective tasked with organising The Case goes to The Directors, or Magistrates, as I understand it, and says, "Excuse me Your Honour, what do you think?"
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Europol put it like this:
Judicial Police
"The Judicial Police is a high-level criminal police force, which falls under the Minister of Justice. Its mission is to assist the judicial authorities with investigations and developing and promoting criminal investigation and preventive action. The service is particularly qualified to combat crime, especially organised crime and other kinds of highly complex and violent crime, which require a nationally managed information system. The Judicial Police is the competent body for contact between the Portuguese authorities and international organisations for criminal police cooperation, such as Interpol and Europol."
https://www.europol.europa.eu/partners-agreements/member-states/portugal
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Why such a long gap (almost a year) between (by that reckoning) the decision being taken that the process would be archived and it actually being archived on (from memory) 4 August 2008?
And I would dispute that Joao Carlos was a part of that, apparent, 'consensus'.
I think it is all to do with provision in the Portuguese penal code that the police have eight months between constituting an arguido and charging them.
Murat's time was up sometime in January 2008 but was delayed until the situation with Kate and Gerry's status was sorted out.
I think had there been no arguido's rights with the attendant timescale to be considered that the Rebelo investigation might have run its course.
Why it wasn't allowed to continue minus the three against whom there was no evidence is a bit of a mystery for me. Why was there such great impetus for a prosecution ... the imperative was surely to find the child first and then evidence to prosecute?
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Thank You. Not normally the way of me, but I am getting there.
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I think it is all to do with provision in the Portuguese penal code that the police have eight months between constituting an arguido and charging them.
Murat's time was up sometime in January 2008 but was delayed until the situation with Kate and Gerry's status was sorted out.
I think had there been no arguido's rights with the attendant timescale to be considered that the Rebelo investigation might have run its course.
Why it wasn't allowed to continue minus the three against whom there was no evidence is a bit of a mystery for me. Why was there such great impetus for a prosecution ... the imperative was surely to find the child first and then evidence to prosecute?
I believe Wiki says there is no time limit, but I'm not interested enough to x-check.
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I believe Wiki says there is no time limit, but I'm not interested enough to x-check.
I've been thumbing through translations of old press reports and read something about it only a couple of days ago.
I don't think there necessarily has to be a time limit on cases ... quite frankly I don't understand the 'archiving' thing ... but it ties in with the situation regarding arguidos.
If I remember correctly that definitely has an eight month time span under normal circumstances, but it can be extended if requested.
Where is JP when you need him? He explains these things so well.
I will come across the link I found again I am sure and will post it if you are interested.
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I believe Wiki says there is no time limit, but I'm not interested enough to x-check.
It does but the authority for the statement is an article from The Daily Telegraph.
http://dictionnaire.sensagent.leparisien.fr/Arguido/en-en/
There are some interesting bits in here:
http://www.gddc.pt/codigos/notas-de-traducao_ingles.html
and here:
https://www.fairtrials.org/arrested-abroad/arrested-in/arrested-in-portuga/