Author Topic: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose  (Read 20787 times)

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Offline John

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #120 on: December 27, 2017, 10:12:56 PM »
What is, "Fit for Purpose?"  I haven't worked that one out yet.  There were too many variables.  Goncalo Amaral was already on the line over The Cipriano Case, and in fact should never have been involved.
And given his desire to be right for his own sake, then we had The Language Barrier.

What I would like to know is who appointed Amaral?  I doubt that this was done with evil intent, but it was a very stupid decision.  There in lies the real mistake.

You will probably find that they hadn't anyone else available with experience in such cases.  But I totally agree, as a matter of proper procedure, Goncalo should never have been allowed anywhere near the case given the complaint against him by the Ciprianos.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #121 on: December 27, 2017, 11:03:47 PM »
Yessssssss!
 (&^&
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Carana

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #122 on: December 27, 2017, 11:44:55 PM »
Yessssssss!
 (&^&

LOL

Are you going to explain what that triumphant yes is about?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #123 on: December 27, 2017, 11:50:19 PM »
LOL

Are you going to explain what that triumphant yes is about?

it needs no explanation

Offline Carana

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #124 on: December 28, 2017, 12:08:42 AM »
Dunno.

If I've understood Alice's point correctly, if there's no publicly available information as to any official criticism by a body of peers, there's no way of answering the question.

Methinks Alice might be having a bit of a larf with a riddle, there.

Offline Eleanor

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #125 on: December 28, 2017, 12:39:28 AM »
You will probably find that they hadn't anyone else available with experience in such cases.  But I totally agree, as a matter of proper procedure, Goncalo should never have been allowed anywhere near the case given the complaint against him by the Ciprianos.

Oh, I see.  They had no one else available or competent.  Oh Dear.  What a shame.  What a disgrace.

Offline Eleanor

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #126 on: December 28, 2017, 12:41:31 AM »
Dunno.

If I've understood Alice's point correctly, if there's no publicly available information as to any official criticism by a body of peers, there's no way of answering the question.

Methinks Alice might be having a bit of a larf with a riddle, there.

Oh Dear.  There was me thinking that Alice was agreeing with me.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #127 on: December 28, 2017, 12:44:10 AM »
Oh Dear.  There was me thinking that Alice was agreeing with me.
Its hard work figuring it all out. 
Moderation
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Offline Carana

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #128 on: December 28, 2017, 01:13:05 AM »
Oh Dear.  There was me thinking that Alice was agreeing with me.

If I follow Alice's thinking (not always easy)....

In the Jersey fiasco, there are two accessible reports on that investigation, at least that I've found.

If the PT authorities didn't do any, then the initial investigation was - in theory -  fit for purpose until proven otherwise.

If there was an inquiry, but which hasn't been made public, there is no evidence available to the public, therefore no  member of the public can produce any.

I've no doubt Alice will correct me if I've misunderstood that train of thought. lol



Offline Carana

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #129 on: December 28, 2017, 01:31:02 AM »
The UK has made an assessment of their side of the investigation available, warts and all. The Portuguese side hasn't. Yet.

Offline Eleanor

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #130 on: December 28, 2017, 02:43:02 AM »
Its hard work figuring it all out.

Don't even try.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #131 on: December 28, 2017, 10:47:57 AM »
LOL

Are you going to explain what that triumphant yes is about?

A private joke and bet.
Based on my mantra "You press this button here and that motor over there fires up".

In general terms I am being serious not having a larf.
The question posed in the thread title relates to "not fit for purpose". The expression has a specific meaning in English law. God knows whether or not there is a Portuguese equivalent.
To demonstrate "not fit for purpose" in England and Wales there are two options.
1) Prove that a contract with a fit for purpose obligation existed between two parties also proving that the imposed duty of result wrt the fit for purpose obligation was breached.
2) Show under the common law that the Bolam Test was failed: "The test is essentially a peer review of the professional’s behaviour. If others would have acted in a similar way, then the professional  is unlikely to have breached his duty of care".
One poster has objected to my use of AC Rowley accepting the original investigation in my narrative. As this was never the main plank of my argument I am quite content, in the interests of furthering the debate, to strike that comment.
Here we go:
snip >>>So what is “fitness for purpose” wrt an investigation? Who has an obligation to whom, what is that obligation, what is the expected result and what penalty is there for failure to achieve the result?
It is hard to see any contract existed between parties in this instance so:

In UK law the common law imposes on a professional person a standard of reasonable skill and care but specifically he/she is not required to guarantee results. Ref: The Bolam Test.

With The Bolam Test in mind, one would need to demonstrate that another investigative team working in a similar field would have found the actions of the original team unacceptable in order to sustain an unfit for purpose claim. The only proper measure we have of that is from the AC of The Metropolitan Police Service, Mr Rowley, who indicated he was content to rely on the original investigation.


The onus on the person making the "not fit for purpose" claim remains the same and as defined in 1 & 2 above.

Caveat. I hold no brief for the PJ or Sr Amaral. I am just advising what "not fit for purpose" means and what you have to do to prove "not fit for purpose" under English law.
Of course if you want to play ersatz, Humpty Dumpty, pretendy "not fit for purpose" then that's different.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #132 on: December 28, 2017, 10:51:43 AM »
A private joke and bet.
Based on my mantra "You press this button here and that motor over there fires up".



so as the motor didnt fire up you lost the bet...I realised exactly what you were doing

Offline Mr Gray

Re: What evidence is there that the initial investigation was not fit for purpose
« Reply #133 on: December 28, 2017, 11:01:13 AM »
AFAIAK....The failure of the initial investihgating team to listen to the experts re the evidence is the one of the most damning aspects of the investigation...imo

from Mark Harrisons Rog....

After the conclusion of the searches, a meeting in the Portimao offices of the PJ took place in the cabinet of Goncalo AMARAL and those present included Guilermino ENCARNACO, an official representative from the Leicestershire police, Martin GRIME and myself. During the meeting were exhibited videos with the details of search activities including the sniffer dogs lead by Martin GRIME. GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 11:04:02 AM by Davel »

Offline Carana

Yes, I agree.  Alice was thinking of a different aspect.

You see, I never thought that Amaral's Book was all that bad.  It was the rest of The Sofa Chat that was designed to do the real damage.  Presuming that it actually did.  But I doubt that this was taken into consideration by The Portuguese Court.

I found his "documentary" worse in terms of the visual impact, and his column in CdM and his promo tour interviews far worse.

I was trying to find them again. They used to be faithfully recorded on a certain site that seems to have disappeared. Does anyone know if they've been stored elsewhere?