Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance + Control Risks Emma Knights etc.

[slartibartfast]

Not too surprising ... would you be able to see through a bag which had been put over your head?  Silly question ... of course you could!

             How's about we all get back on topic now?

Ahh, the alleged bag.

[Sunny]

Not too surprising ... would you be able to see through a bag which had been put over your head?  Silly question ... of course you could!

             How's about we all get back on topic now?

Please could you answer my earlier question Brietta?

[Robittybob1]

Ahh, the alleged bag.

I never thought of the alleged bag when discussing this timeline for the searching covers a period when the alleged bag is still clearly in the photographs of apartment 5A.  So it can't be "the bag" but more likely Madeleine, as exemplified by Smithman carrying a girl in his arms, not Smithman carrying a bag in his arms.

[Robittybob1]

IIRC the title of this thread was cut and paste from parts of the Analysis document.  The people doing the analysis were aware that 5 of the Tapas 9 were involved in the searching  They aren't named as a list but from what I could gather they say CR spoke to these 5, along with Emma Knight's input and CR took additional statements.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm#oa29-p11to14
"Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance"
"Dear Sirs,
....."   [you can see that text in the link given.]

That text is cut and paste from the PJ files, so it isn't me calling it a "Group timeline" but Control Risks do in their submission to the PJ.
You can just about translate it from the original Portuguese document

That is why it is called what it is.  - a Group Timeline ...

Brietta did you accept this now?

[Robittybob1]

You would wonder what is going on here  With Control Risks taking parallel statements to the PJ active case going on.
... snip ...

A thread discussing this aspect   "No 1 - The Search for Madeleine McCann and Control Risks Group"  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.0

Mr Moderator through his research had concluded: in the post http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.0
"The involvement of Control Risks Group at this early stage was highly significant. The company was apparently on a retainer by public relations company Bell Pottinger as part of a ‘crisis management’ team, on behalf of Mark Warner. Why were Control Risks Group brought in so soon?   To help find a missing child...or was it more to do with damage limitation?

If Bell Pottinger was employed by MW, and Bell Pottinger was paying the retainer for Control Risks,  was the purpose really to control the risks of "damage limitation"?

[Robittybob1]

I just can't quite see that the situation prior to the McCanns being declared arguidos is the same as when they are arguidos.  IIRC the McCANNS employed Metodo 3 after they returned to England.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3083.msg113422#msg113422

So why were the PJ treating the activities of Control Risks as legal?

[Robittybob1]

The source of Mr Moderator's information seems to be from here http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id376.htm..

From that I get the picture that CRG (Control Risks Group) were retained by the McCanns in September, but there was talk of them working during the previous 4 months as well.

Interesting detail what CRG is about here https://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2018/05/control-risk-group-kenneth-farrow-and.html

"It is, at least, strange, that a so powerful organization, with capacity to act in war raged countries like Iraq, was hired, apparently by Bell Pottinger, to come to Praia da Luz, to investigate what could be considered a “minor” case of the disappearance a child. But this only one of the many mysteries that still surround the Madeleine McCann Case.

[Robittybob1]

Now this is the translation of a letter to the PJ
"Date:14-08-2007


Dear Sirs,

This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.

This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time.  ...."

Origin of the timeline
"This 'timeline' was created based upon:

1.  translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police

2. from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group

3.  and from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner,

4. from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police

5. and from questioning carried out at that time.  ...."

So am I reading that correctly "1.  translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police" did Control Risks have access to the original statements made to the PJ?   How did they get hold of them?

[Sunny]

Now this is the translation of a letter to the PJ
"Date:14-08-2007


Dear Sirs,

This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.

This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time.  ...."

Origin of the timeline
"This 'timeline' was created based upon:

1.  translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police

2. from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group

3.  and from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner,

4. from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police

5. and from questioning carried out at that time.  ...."

So am I reading that correctly "1.  translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police" did Control Risks have access to the original statements made to the PJ?   How did they get hold of them?

It is in Kate's book, Rob. I think Control Risks worked with the McCanns to produce statements in English early on and these were apparently given to the PJ.  I doubt I could find a link but I will have a look.

I know it is there as I read it last night.

[Sunny]

Rob, it didn't take as long as I thought. From Kate's book

By the Sunday evening we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks. We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police , especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not particularly thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly.

Unfortunately in our haste to pass the new statements on to the PJ, we made the mistake of assuming that the transcripts would be correct and discovered only many months later that these, too, contained inaccuracies.  And they had been given and recorded in English!

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vCULWkAvbu0C&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq="by+the+sunday+evening"+kate+mccann+madeleine&source=bl&ots=q25FCtGVK5&sig=gFVTS_D5fYIkYRCE8-3Cj_Fdr1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid4O2Jn7LdAhUKJcAKHWPTDtoQ6AEwAXoECAcQAQ

[Sunny]

Rob, it didn't take as long as I thought. From Kate's book

By the Sunday evening we found ourselves giving our statements again, this time to a couple of detectives from Control Risks. We were concerned that parts of the statements we had made to the Portuguese police , especially on that first day, might have been lost in translation. We also felt that these accounts were not particularly thorough and wanted to have every detail we could remember registered properly.

Unfortunately in our haste to pass the new statements on to the PJ, we made the mistake of assuming that the transcripts would be correct and discovered only many moths later that these, too, contained inaccuracies.  And they had been given and recorded in English!

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vCULWkAvbu0C&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq="by+the+sunday+evening"+kate+mccann+madeleine&source=bl&ots=q25FCtGVK5&sig=gFVTS_D5fYIkYRCE8-3Cj_Fdr1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwid4O2Jn7LdAhUKJcAKHWPTDtoQ6AEwAXoECAcQAQ

On seeing that Kate has said their earlier statements were lost in translation.

Gerry McCann 4th May

In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm

Gerry McCann 10th May

He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

Were those two statements supposed to have been the same originally then, and it was just translation error?

[Robittybob1]

I appreciate the effort you have put in there Sunny, I will steer the conversation away from aspects of the timeline prior to Kate's alarm.  I want this thread to focus on the timeline post alert if possible.

[Robittybob1]

Now this is the translation of a letter to the PJ
"Date:14-08-2007


Dear Sirs,

This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.

This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time.  ...."

Origin of the timeline
"This 'timeline' was created based upon:

1.  translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police

2. from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group

3.  and from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner,

4. from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police

5. and from questioning carried out at that time.  ...."

So am I reading that correctly "1.  translations of statements made by elements of the group to the Portuguese police" did Control Risks have access to the original statements made to the PJ?   How did they get hold of them?

What really surprised me was the role played by Emma Knights in that report, considering she had not made a statement herself by that stage.  She is claiming to be vouching for some of the Tapas 5 yet she had not made an independent statement herself for those claims to be cross-checked against.

[G-Unit]

What really surprised me was the role played by Emma Knights in that report, considering she had not made a statement herself by that stage.  She is claiming to be vouching for some of the Tapas 5 yet she had not made an independent statement herself for those claims to be cross-checked against.

The only claim was that she saw David and Matthew, wasn't it?

[Robittybob1]

The only claim was that she saw David and Matthew, wasn't it?

I thought there were about 4 claims that needed verification.

1.. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area ("the beach,
 the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator").

2.. and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing.

3.. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.

4.. Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach