Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 255818 times)

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Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #345 on: November 05, 2018, 12:40:33 PM »
According to Grime’s LinkedIn page he and Stockham worked closely together on a number of projects prior to the case you refer to.   Could he therefore be considered completely independent and impartial?

And before that Stockham was what?  A very respected scent dog expert who pioneered scientific testing of dogs and wrote peer reviewed papers on it.

  It's not particularly logical imo that he started working with Grime and then failed to keep up his standards, or indeed that he chose to work with Grime if his dogs and methods were so terrible. He was a scientist who was dedicated to producing peer assessed work and you think he suddenly decided to start misleading courts and became biased for profit?

   

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #346 on: November 05, 2018, 12:43:16 PM »
And before that Stockham was what?  A very respected scent dog expert who pioneered scientific testing of dogs and wrote peer reviewed papers on it.

  It's not particularly logical imo that he started working with Grime and then failed to keep up his standards, or indeed that he chose to work with Grime if his dogs and methods were so terrible. He was a scientist who was dedicated to producing peer assessed work and you think he suddenly decided to start misleading courts and became biased for profit?

 
If you think it’s perfectly impartial and independent testimony then that’s one view, others may disagree.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #347 on: November 05, 2018, 12:50:03 PM »
Then why did the court of Michigan accept Grime's dogs based on Stockham's assessment?
Perhaps they were wrong too
What does 90% accurate mean....it means nothing without details of the, tests
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 12:54:15 PM by Davel »

Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #348 on: November 05, 2018, 12:58:45 PM »
If you think it’s perfectly impartial and independent testimony then that’s one view, others may disagree.

The court found it acceptable. I never said it was perfectly impartial. Maybe for the reasons I stated they found his testimony good enough, as in his qualifications.  Why would he suddenly start misrepresenting his findings after a long respected career? It makes no sense and the court would be able to work that out too. In your scenario he decided to start give biased testimony because he wanted to promote his business? He was already very successful and recognised as a pioneer his field, he didn't need to start misrepresenting his testing methods.

It would seem the world of scent dog training is bursting at the seems with money grabbing self promoters who have base long careers on their ability to fudge results and misrepresent them, including in courts and peer reviewed journals. ?!

Offline Eleanor

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #349 on: November 05, 2018, 01:02:01 PM »
And before that Stockham was what?  A very respected scent dog expert who pioneered scientific testing of dogs and wrote peer reviewed papers on it.

  It's not particularly logical imo that he started working with Grime and then failed to keep up his standards, or indeed that he chose to work with Grime if his dogs and methods were so terrible. He was a scientist who was dedicated to producing peer assessed work and you think he suddenly decided to start misleading courts and became biased for profit?

 

You can't apply Science to Dogs.  Dogs don't understand this.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #350 on: November 05, 2018, 01:15:29 PM »
The court found it acceptable. I never said it was perfectly impartial. Maybe for the reasons I stated they found his testimony good enough, as in his qualifications.  Why would he suddenly start misrepresenting his findings after a long respected career? It makes no sense and the court would be able to work that out too. In your scenario he decided to start give biased testimony because he wanted to promote his business? He was already very successful and recognised as a pioneer his field, he didn't need to start misrepresenting his testing methods.

It would seem the world of scent dog training is bursting at the seems with money grabbing self promoters who have base long careers on their ability to fudge results and misrepresent them, including in courts and peer reviewed journals. ?!
Erm, ok, if you say so.  I was merely pointing out the lack of independent, impartial testing of the dogs.  Unconscious bias is a thing you know.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #351 on: November 05, 2018, 01:21:42 PM »
Perhaps they were wrong too
What does 90% accurate mean....it means nothing without details of the, tests

I provided a link to the court of Michigan case, which included this;

"At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime's dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range. Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim's death, or years after a victim's burial."

 Rex Stockham's scientific papers are available that detail his methods. His qualifications are known to the court, so obviously his statement did mean something to the court. The fact he oversaw the FBI's canine programme and instigated the training methods for the FBI as a whole in the US, obviously carries a bit of weight.

" A New Breed
Scent Dog Program Gets Results

Human scent evidence has been used in federal court before.  However, the federal court judge’s ruling sets an important precedent—and by extension acknowledges the Bureau’s efforts to promote the highest standards when scent dogs are used in investigations.

The use of dogs by law enforcement is nothing new. Bloodhounds have traditionally been called upon to pick up the trail of fugitives and missing persons. FBI police and our special agent bomb technicians use dogs trained to sniff for explosives, and we have victim recovery dogs trained specifically to seek out the smell of blood and decomposing bodies.

But our Human Scent Evidence Team (HSET), established in 2002 and now a full-time program in the ERTU, is something of a new breed. After they are trained and certified—a process that can take two to three years—HSET dogs can help point investigators in the right direction when time and resources may be in limited supply—and their efforts may later be scrutinized in the courtroom.

Here’s how the program works:

At the crime scene, in addition to collecting fingerprints, DNA, and other evidence, ERT technicians collect scents by using a trace evidence vacuum similar to those used for collection of hair and fibers. Human scent traces, which can be obtained from almost any object, are vacuumed onto a sterile surgical dressing and placed in an airtight glass jar (they can be stored that way for an extended period of time).
Dogs are trained to smell the collected scent by sniffing the scent pad and indicating either a scent match or a non-match. If there is a matching trail of human odor, the dog will follow an invisible “odor highway” in the same way humans might recognize streets, roadways, and intersections.
In most cases handlers know nothing about the cases they are called in to work. They are simply given a scent pad and asked to follow a trail if one is found.
Stockham is working with the Department of Homeland Security and other agencies to establish a uniform set of training and certification standards that would apply to all scent dogs used in investigations.

 “Our goal is to promote a science-driven program with the highest standards of training, certification, and professionalism,” Stockham explained. “It’s part of the FBI Laboratory’s commitment to provide exceptional forensic science services to our federal, state, local, and international law enforcement partners.”

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2010/december/scent_122310/scent_122310

So people questioning Stockham's opinion are saying that a man in charge of implementing scientific standards across a whole country suddenly became biased and wanted to exaggerate things on behalf of Grime?

Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #352 on: November 05, 2018, 01:23:39 PM »
You can't apply Science to Dogs.  Dogs don't understand this.

That sounds a bit flippant. If you are serious it's a bit worrying, science can study any animal as far as I'm aware! 

Rex Stockham was a scientist who studied scent dogs. You might think it was worthless but the FBI didn't.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #353 on: November 05, 2018, 01:25:48 PM »
That sounds a bit flippant. If you are serious it's a bit worrying, science can study any animal as far as I'm aware! 

Rex Stockham was a scientist who studied scent dogs. You might think it was worthless but the FBI didn't.

Scent dogs are very useful when they find evidence... That is what they are trained for

Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #354 on: November 05, 2018, 01:28:23 PM »
Erm, ok, if you say so.  I was merely pointing out the lack of independent, impartial testing of the dogs.  Unconscious bias is a thing you know.

Yes I know what bias is. Just every human being on the planet is biased in some way. Stockham wrote peer reviewed studies, that's how science guards against bias. He was a scientist who you believe suddenly started being biased enough to render his judgement worthless when he started working with Grime. Doesn't make sense to me, or the FBI or the court of Michigan.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #355 on: November 05, 2018, 01:31:22 PM »
Was it £450 per day amaral was charging....he's obviously  going to praise the abilities  of his dogs

Do you mean Grime?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #356 on: November 05, 2018, 01:32:07 PM »
That sounds a bit flippant. If you are serious it's a bit worrying, science can study any animal as far as I'm aware! 

Rex Stockham was a scientist who studied scent dogs. You might think it was worthless but the FBI didn't.

My Dog could find a Cadaver if there is one.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #357 on: November 05, 2018, 01:33:30 PM »

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #358 on: November 05, 2018, 01:35:08 PM »
Yes I know what bias is. Just every human being on the planet is biased in some way. Stockham wrote peer reviewed studies, that's how science guards against bias. He was a scientist who you believe suddenly started being biased enough to render his judgement worthless when he started working with Grime. Doesn't make sense to me, or the FBI or the court of Michigan.
You are totally exaggerating and misrepresenting what I have written.  I am at a loss as to why you are so incredibly defensive of Stockham however.  From the court testimony
“Stockham testified that Grime was a recognized expert in the field of animal behavior in the United Kingdom who worked with and trained Morse and Keela. Stockham tested Grime and Morse in 2011. On one occasion, Morse gave a “nonproductive response” when he “barked in a blank room.” No samples were in the room, but Stockham could not exclude the possibility that trace matter was there.

According to Stockham, no instruments can detect and confirm the presence of human remains. It is not clear whether a dog reacts to single compound or a combination of compounds in a decomposing body. Therefore, nonproductive responses cannot be verified as correct or incorrect. Instead, Stockham assumes that the result is correct if the dog has routinely passed testing before and after the incident. Grime admitted that there was no scientific testing method that could corroborate Morse's responses in this case.”
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 01:54:57 PM by slartibartfast »
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Gertrude

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #359 on: November 05, 2018, 01:35:53 PM »
My Dog could find a Cadaver if there is one.

Funny how police forces around the world would spend so much and so many years on studying training methods if that's all it takes.