Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata

[Gertrude]

so what is the regulatory body covering cadaver dogs...there isnt one ..its all anectdotal....and therefore not scientific

I've been accused of being 'defensive' , a personal connection of Rex Stockham, Maybe it's because I posted quite a bit of information about his work and qualifications and it just gets ignored and dismissed. There is a regulatory body, a government body he was part of. To say it is all anecdotal is plainly wrong when there are peer reviewed papers on the subject. It seems some people will accept no scientists view on the reliability of dogs unless it mirrors their own.

  "Rex was a founding member of the Scientific Working Group on Dog and Orthogonal detector Guidelines (SWGDOG), served on the Executive Board and co-chaired the Scent Dogs Subcommittee. More recently, Rex was a member of the Dogs and Sensors subcommittee of Organization of Scientific Area Committees for Forensic Science (OSAC).''
   
http://www.aflab.com/organization-scientific-area-committees-osac/

"May 5, 2017Posted by: Armstrong ForensicCategory: News0 Likes
The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) was created to coordinate development of a quality infrastructure for forensic science standards development.  There are about 20 people on the Standard Development Organization (SDO).  Some time later, NIST created a multi-level organization to conduct its assigned responsibilities.  This group is called the Organization of Scientific Area Committees (OSAC) for Forensic Science.  It consists of five Scientific Area Committees (SACs) which report to a Forensic Science Standards Board (FSSB).  Each of the five SACs oversee discipline-specific subcommittees.  Three Resource Committees provide input to the FSSB, SACs, and SAC Subcommittees.

Only about 550 of the world’s greatest experts on these topics are on these committees. We are very proud to say that Dr. Andrew Armstrong is on the Fire Debris & Explosives Subcommittee of the Chemistry/Instrumental Analysis SAC.  Currently, OSAC is working diligently to improve old American Society of Testing and Materials (ASTM) Standards, and to create new standards.  These changes and additions are voted on by ASTM E30, Committee of Forensic Science.  Any changes are sent back to OSAC to vote on whether they accept, or reject the proposed changes.  Additionally, they are working on improving Quality Assurance/Quality Control guidelines, and on improving specific report language.

For more information about OSAC, NIST, any of the five SACs and their subcommittees, you may visit https://www.nist.gov/forensics/organization-scientific-area-committees-forensic-science.  There you will find more details about the improvement of these standards and guidelines that are based on sound scientific principles.  Stay tuned for the latest in this developing area!''

[Brietta]

With nothing to gain having submitted a guilty plea in the event of his wife's death for reckless homicide which carried a maximum sentence of five years in preference to the expense of a second murder trial, Zapata denied that his wife's remains had ever lain in the crawl space beneath his home as the first dogs had indicated.
http://charleyproject.org/case/jeanette-louise-zapata

From everything else I have read so far the cadaver dogs appear only to have reacted to deposition sites as already indicated by Zapata ... which in my opinion is hardly scientific.


Snip
There's no wind. There's no rain. The temperature stays about the same all the time," Corcoran explains.
On Jan. 6, 2005, Statz, Corcoran and Cleo the cadaver dog went to work in the crawlspace. "Right away she started really working and working, and working the area of both outside the crawlspace, Early on in her investigation Statz went to the house where the Zapatas lived. There, she discovered a crawl space in the basement. It had not been mentioned in the original police reports in 1976. So Statz enlisted the help of some specially trained colleagues who can detect even the faintest scent of human remains.
Madison Police Officer Carren Corcoran has trained and handled cadaver dogs for the last ten years.
"It's hard to imagine that a dog can detect something from 30 years in a basement. How is that possible?" Schlesinger asks.
"I think that an entire body decomposing, possibly early on and in a space like the crawlspace, which was really [a] primo environment to contain and into the crawlspace. And then she eventually provided a formal indication, which is a bark for Cleo," Corcoran remembers.
Then, a second dog reacted the same way. Police started excavating the crawlspace.
"We found some hairs. We collected bug carcasses and a Burger King cup. We found things. But we did not find anything that we could tie to Jeanette Zapata," Statz says.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/into-thin-air/3/

_________________________________________________________________

Snip
According to Eugene’s statement, he cleaned up the kitchen and began a grisly 30 year odyssey with Jean’s body, burying it, exhuming it, and re-burying it. He claims his wife was never in the crawlspace. He says for 25 years, she was buried in a vacant lot he bought right after the murder. Then he says he moved her to the storage locker, where she stayed until April 2005, when Eugene heard the case had been reopened. Then he says he came back here, cut her body into pieces and took her to the landfill.
https://openair72.wordpress.com/tag/eugene-zapata/

[Gertrude]

No Evidence was collected in The McCann Case.  And I am not awfully happy about the evidence in The Bianca Jones case.

Seriously? No evidence was collected? What were the PJ forensics files about then?  Can I have a cite for that please?

 In the Bianca Jones case her father admitted to beating the child until she started to lose consciousness with a 2 feet long stick. She then she disappeared hours later after he put her in his car, head covered with a blanket and other kids said she was silent and didn't move. He cannot account for the time when she went missing, that is very strong evidence mirrored exactly by what the dogs alerted to.

 Grime had no knowledge of what items belonged to Bianca but they alerted to the car seat and blanket and car.  No-one seems to want to address that 'coincidence'.  Lane was an admitted and witnessed abuser of his children. 100% no doubt, whatsoever about that!
   Some seem desperate to dismiss all this evidence of child abuse and probable homicide just because the dogs were involved in a small part of it.
   

[Angelo222]

To recap. The McCann's expensive lawyers pounced on one case of a cadaver dog handler's evidence being rejected by a US court in the hope that it would help them to discredit Martin Grimes work. Handlers and dogs vary in their expertise and reliability and Grime was an acceptable witness in the UK courts. Sweeping statements such as Gerry McCann's are unwise and incorrect.

To be honest, I found Gerry McCanns intervention into the CSI dog debate as suspicious. He should have tried to explain the alerts rather than attempt to discredit all CSI and search dogs in one go. A lapse in good judgement imo.

As they say in meteorological circles, one cloud doesn't maketh a storm.

[Brietta]

Seriously? No evidence was collected? What were the PJ forensics files about then?  Can I have a cite for that please?

 In the Bianca Jones case her father admitted to beating the child until she started to lose consciousness with a 2 feet long stick. She then she disappeared hours later after he put her in his car, head covered with a blanket and other kids said she was silent and didn't move. He cannot account for the time when she went missing, that is very strong evidence mirrored exactly by what the dogs alerted to.

 Grime had no knowledge of what items belonged to Bianca but they alerted to the car seat and blanket and car.  No-one seems to want to address that 'coincidence'.  Lane was an admitted and witnessed abuser of his children. 100% no doubt, whatsoever about that!
   Some seem desperate to dismiss all this evidence of child abuse and probable homicide just because the dogs were involved in a small part of it.
   

What is the evidence secreted within the PJ forensic files which link Kate and Gerry to the allegations made about them by Amaral in his book?

For certain sure the PJ never found it ... what do you think they missed?

[Angelo222]

What is the evidence secreted within the PJ forensic files which link Kate and Gerry to the allegations made about them by Amaral in his book?

For certain sure the PJ never found it ... what do you think they missed?

Their entire demeanor following the child's disappearance reeked of guilt but then one could put that down to the shame over the neglect allegations and the consequences which could very well have flowed from them.  Both would have been struck off and lost their medical careers imo.

[Brietta]

Their entire demeanor following the child's disappearance reeked of guilt but then one could put that down to the shame over the neglect allegations and the consequences which could very well have flowed from them.

Where does it say that in the PJ forensic files which is the cite I requested ... or anywhere else in the files for that matter?

[G-Unit]

To be honest, I found Gerry McCanns intervention into the CSI dog debate as suspicious. He should have tried to explain the alerts rather than attempt to discredit all CSI and search dogs in one go. A lapse in good judgement imo.

As they say in meteorological circles, one cloud doesn't maketh a storm.

Thanks to the efforts of the only journalist who was prepared to ask searching questions. In my opinion Gerry isn't good when under pressure.

[Gertrude]

What is the evidence secreted within the PJ forensic files which link Kate and Gerry to the allegations made about them by Amaral in his book?

For certain sure the PJ never found it ... what do you think they missed?

Eleanor said there was NO evidence   That's not correct is it? The evidence collected was not sufficient.

[Mr Gray]

To be honest, I found Gerry McCanns intervention into the CSI dog debate as suspicious. He should have tried to explain the alerts rather than attempt to discredit all CSI and search dogs in one go. A lapse in good judgement imo.

As they say in meteorological circles, one cloud doesn't maketh a storm.

It's purely opinion... You see suspicion where there is none... Imo

[Mr Gray]

Eleanor said there was NO evidence   That's not correct is it? The evidence collected was not sufficient.

The archiving report said no evidence but the SC who didn't look at all the evidence changed it... There is no evidence against the mccanns

[Admin]

A reminder.  Personal attacks are forbidden on this forum.

Admin

[Angelo222]

The archiving report said no evidence but the SC who didn't look at all the evidence changed it... There is no evidence against the mccanns

Not a surprising response but naive all the same.  Maybe the Portuguese AG authorised the making of the McCanns as official suspects just for a laugh. Someone clearly doesn't understand how the judicial system works imo.

1. Investigate
2. Establish suspects
3. Interview under caution
4. Charge or release

[Gertrude]

The archiving report said no evidence but the SC who didn't look at all the evidence changed it... There is no evidence against the mccanns

Not the same as 'no evidence' is it?

  I see people are ignoring the stuff I posted about Forensics regulatory bodies in the US that Rex Stockham was part of.

[Vertigo Swirl]

I can quote cases where cadaver dogs were proved correct. Can you quote cases where psychics have been proved correct?

Not off the top of my head, and why should it matter anyway?  My point was that in any given field there are those that are considered experts.  No doubt it is to them that the police turn to, whether cadaver dog handlers or psychics.