Jeremy Bamber - Lead Detective Sgt Stan Jones has his say

[Myster]

The only factor which I can readily see to identify which part of the arm this is that the arm measures 3" so surely that must be above the wrist and not above the elbow?

If you look at the photos you posted you will see that the arm measures closer to 4" and more at the elbow.

My turn to say your right this time! 

I must admit it does look more like the forearm... so it's probably not bullet wound number 8 after all, but could be an impact wound by a sharp object such as the rifle end or foresight.

I think it resembles the inner side of the left forearm with the palm of the hand facing towards the left, i.e. towards the body.

And it doesn't look like a bullet grazing wound either if you compare it to say the grazing gunshot wounds pictured about two-thirds the way down the page on this site, but be warned it has some gory images....

documentingreality.com/forum/f10/gunshot-wound-deaths-100661/

[Outlook]

This has been discussed at length on "other foums" and one of the problems was that the scales on the photos were different and suffered from severe perspective distortion so you have to take your own ruler to them rather than rely on the scale in the picture.  When perspective is involved then it becomes largely guess work.  Naturally to point this out on other forums resulted in the usual abuse which is mercifully absent here.

So in some cases what has been passed off as "burn" marks could be entry/exit wounds for bullet fragments I think?  I recall one of Dr Vanezis' comments was that he was concerned that a proper examination had not been performed by a ballistics expert.  Whilst he was an experienced pathologist I gathered he felt he would have valued the support of a ballistics expert.  I am recalling the everlasting dispute over the "magic" bullet at the President Kennedy assasination entering and leaving the body only to wound another person in the car.

Some of those pictures are ghastly.  Can I suggest that the link is disabled such that anyone who wants to go there has to retype the URL rather than just click through?  It is not the sort of thing to go to accidently.

[Myster]

Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 

[John]

Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 

No problem.  I notice that some of the links we add are being copied onto the search engines so we have to be careful what we link to.

Do you think that it could have been the rifle magazine which caused at least some of the sharp grazing or bruising?  From memory I believe the forensics report did say that there was blood on the magazine.





The murder weapon showing the damaged stock.

[Myster]

Do you think that it could have been the rifle magazine which caused at least some of the sharp grazing or bruising?

There are three or four longish bruises with cuts to the skin in line with them (more easily seen in the colour photos). The bruises look similar to the width of the rifle barrel (rather than a wider part such as the wooden stock) and as if these were delivered in quick succession one after the other, with the sharper parts such as the front or rear sight rather than the magazine causing the lacerations. The cuts might even have been caused by the barrel alone as the skin of an older person is fragile and more easily damaged than that of someone younger.

I think the rifle would have been more manageable when used to batter with if it was held with say left hand holding the stock at the wider end (behind the trigger) and the right hand holding the narrower stock just below the rear sight (assuming the killer was right-handed).

How the piece broke off the stock is still a mystery to me though... we talked before about this... but the rifle must have struck some inert solid object rather than a person and have been wielded by someone of sufficient strength. He might have dropped the rifle as a result, and had to pick it up again sharpish.

[Myster]

I don't recall seeing anything in the forensics about blood on the magazine.. but again you may be right. I'll have to research a bit more.

If there was it might have come from the assailant's hand or glove when he reloaded it.

Or from contact with Sheila's blood when he shot her or planted the rifle on her body.

[Outlook]

Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 

Thank you, that was kind of you.   It really put me off my tea.

I would inclined to think the magazine would not be in place when the rifle was used as a club because they are not locked in place, they are held in place with springs are they not?  I must admit I am no gun expert.  So if you are hitting someone with a rifle the magazine would be prone to fly out?  Perhaps?  Also if the gunman was out of ammunition at the time he would be more inclined to use the rifle as a club rather than in the usual way at least until he had disabled his victim sufficiently to get time to reload.

So I suggest a sequence:  Empty the magazine into the first victims, run out of ammunition.  Realize Mr Bamber was escaping, use the rifle as a club, break the stock, reload with single bullets to shoot Mr Bamber, locate the magazine and reload fully, go back upstairs to complete the massace.

[John]

Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 

Thank you, that was kind of you.   It really put me off my tea.

I must admit some of it was pretty gruesome but such is life.  Glad to help...hope you enjoyed your tea?   

[John]

If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1.  PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0

[Outlook]

Thank you John for changing access to that site as requested. 

Thank you, that was kind of you.   It really put me off my tea.

I must admit some of it was pretty gruesome but such is life.  Glad to help...hope you enjoyed your tea?   

I had some dry toast eventually.  I think if I want to do something to myself, I will stick with tablets.

[Outlook]

If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1.  PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0

This is what also leads me to think the position of Mr Bamber was "posed" because PV3,4,5,8,9,10 and 11 are wounds to the left side of the head and neck and as some would be the fatal wounds it is reasonable (at least on this forum) to think some of them (3)? were the last shots fired.  But (and to me it is a really big but) Mr Bamber's body is right side on to the most likely position of the shooter.  So he was moved post mortem by the shooter and of course Sheila was half his weight and a foot shorter (and most likely dead upstairs at this point).

[Outlook]

To explain myself better if we return to your "Red Dot" picture of the kitchen.

Mr Bamber is "lying" on the chair with his left side towards the AGA.  The spare cartridges for a reload are at position 1/2.  The spent cases are over towards the kitchen table and they are ejected forward and to the right of the weapon.  Therefore the only and best position for the shooter is in the SW corner of the room facing Mr Bamber but... it is his right side.  Therefore he had to have been moved or "posed" post mortem.

[Myster]

If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1.  PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0

This is what also leads me to think the position of Mr Bamber was "posed" because PV8,9,10 and 11 are wounds to the left side of the head and neck and as they would be the fatal wounds it is reasonable (at least on this forum) to think they were the last shots fired.  But (and to me it is a really big but) Mr Bamber's body is right side on to the most likely position of the shooter.  So he was moved post mortem by the shooter and of course Sheila was half his weight and a foot shorter (and most likely dead upstairs at this point).

But the final four fatal bullets according to Vanezis were fired in two groups, i.e. two bullets in each group to the top (right of midline) and right side of the head. So the killer wouldn't have any need to reposition the body.

And why would the killer need to readjust it anyway?

[John]

If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1.  PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0

This is what also leads me to think the position of Mr Bamber was "posed" because PV8,9,10 and 11 are wounds to the left side of the head and neck and as they would be the fatal wounds it is reasonable (at least on this forum) to think they were the last shots fired.  But (and to me it is a really big but) Mr Bamber's body is right side on to the most likely position of the shooter.  So he was moved post mortem by the shooter and of course Sheila was half his weight and a foot shorter (and most likely dead upstairs at this point).

That's an interesting observation Outlook.   >@@(*&)   What you post is of course true, I also feel that he was moved albeit ever so slightly and his head put over the coal scuttle to prevent the spread of blood maybe?

In relation to the rifle magazine, I take back what I offered earlier about blood being on it.  In John Hayward's report at page 6 he refers to blood being on the rifle barrel in the region of the foresight, around the mechanism and on the stock.  He also says the stock of the rifle has blood splashes on one side suggesting that it was used to hit a person who was already bleeding.  There was also blood on the breech which tested as being human.

Interesting that there was no blood found on the pull through which also suggest the use of the silencer.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=260.0

[Outlook]

I do not know either.  It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose.  This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere."  I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.

What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.