Author Topic: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.  (Read 220700 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #420 on: November 30, 2018, 05:55:55 PM »
The locks on my doors can't be opened from outside if there is a key in the inside lock.  I think Carlo Ambrosio expected that too.
There will be several variations.  It might go to show that the lock on the front door of 5A had been modified in some way, which may support my thesis in the previous post.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #421 on: November 30, 2018, 05:59:44 PM »
Do I have to say again that my post, should be read in the context of the post it replied to.... I think woke and, wandered is unlikely  and there's no good evidence it is being investigated.... Just the sun
You think that but what is the reason you think like that?  What would have stopped Madeleine opening up the front door and walking out?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #422 on: November 30, 2018, 06:17:02 PM »
How do you know?   For when I investigated it  those two pieces are designed to move at times together and at other times independently.  One can prove this by look at the latch of most modern doors and you will be able to move both together if one was to press the latch bolt  but the other non bevelled bit can move independently without moving the latch The second bolt is there to prevent slipping a plastic card or whatever behind the latch bolt.

Now when Goncalo's security expert examines the front door he talks in Portuguese and we read the closed captions (from memory), but IMO Alexandre Simas  has his words translated incorrectly.  He talks of "screw" which I believe now to be "bolt", for there was no photograph showing a proud screw but we do have a latch with the latch bolt lock.

https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/04/maddie-truth-of-lie-documentary.htm

"43.25 - Final Evidence

43.28 – With the help from one of the major experts from the Scientific Police, who worked for the Polícia Judiciária, Alexandre Simas, Gonçalo Amaral intends to prove, first, that it was impossible for the child to be abducted, starting by demonstrating that the indications prove that the apartment’s window and door were not forced.

43.47 - How does one open a door like this, without the key?

Alexandre Simas
Expert (Former Polícia Judiciária)

43.51 – This type of apartment door, normally there are only three possibilities: to extract the lock’s cannon, which didn’t happen, or it would have been reported; a false key, a copy or one that was used without permission; or using a malleable material, as long as it’s not locked, it’s introduced, and it makes the lock go back inside. But when it goes in, even if it did, it would hit this screw. If it hits the screw, no matter how much I force it, it doesn’t jump to open the lock for me."

I'm sure now where it says "screw" the right word should have been "bolt".  When talking locks a bolt is not a threaded bolt with a head but a piece of metal that is movable.

But the interesting thing is the this proves beyond a doubt that the rim latch on 5A had been modified  in such a way that "will NOT be able to move both together if one was to press the latch bolt".

In the latch on the front door of 5A the two pieces of metal moved independently at all times

To get the terminology correct I found this article.  https://www.gokeyless.com/blog/whats-the-difference-between-a-latch-and-deadbolt-and-which-is-better/

where it says:

"LATCHES
Latch-based locking mechanisms are extremely common, with spring-loaded latches being the most prevalent type of device that is used within a typical lockset. Spring latches usually fall into one of two categories, as follows:

Latchbolts – These latches feature a spring-loaded bolt that is angled off at the top edge. As the door is closed, the angled side of the bolt will engage with the edge or lip of the strike plate (i.e., the hollowed-out plate fastened to the adjoining door frame), and the bolt itself will retract due to the pressure of contact with the strike plate. Once the bolt passes a certain point, it will fully extend and quickly lock into the strike plate due to the pressure being released from the spring, securing the door and holding it closed. Latches are designed to retract and disengage when someone turns the door handle to open the door.

Deadlatches – This device is a slight elaboration on the design of the basic latchbolt. Deadlatches feature what’s known as a guardbolt, which is a smaller cylindrical bolt positioned right beside the latchbolt. The guardbolt is designed to move in unison with the latchbolt up until the point where the latchbolt extends into the strike plate. At that point, the guardbolt remains in a depressed position against the strike plate, preventing the common burglary practice of “jimmying” or “shimming” the latchbolt. The way the guardbolt is positioned will not allow the latchbolt to be depressed by means of using a credit card or some other thin, flat tool."

So what was on the door at 5A was "deadlatch"  with a deadbolt on top.  The door could be left with just the deadlatch or for deadlatch and deadbolt to be in place.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #423 on: November 30, 2018, 07:16:55 PM »
To get the terminology correct I found this article.  https://www.gokeyless.com/blog/whats-the-difference-between-a-latch-and-deadbolt-and-which-is-better/

where it says:

"LATCHES
Latch-based locking mechanisms are extremely common, with spring-loaded latches being the most prevalent type of device that is used within a typical lockset. Spring latches usually fall into one of two categories, as follows:

Latchbolts – These latches feature a spring-loaded bolt that is angled off at the top edge. As the door is closed, the angled side of the bolt will engage with the edge or lip of the strike plate (i.e., the hollowed-out plate fastened to the adjoining door frame), and the bolt itself will retract due to the pressure of contact with the strike plate. Once the bolt passes a certain point, it will fully extend and quickly lock into the strike plate due to the pressure being released from the spring, securing the door and holding it closed. Latches are designed to retract and disengage when someone turns the door handle to open the door.

Deadlatches – This device is a slight elaboration on the design of the basic latchbolt. Deadlatches feature what’s known as a guardbolt, which is a smaller cylindrical bolt positioned right beside the latchbolt. The guardbolt is designed to move in unison with the latchbolt up until the point where the latchbolt extends into the strike plate. At that point, the guardbolt remains in a depressed position against the strike plate, preventing the common burglary practice of “jimmying” or “shimming” the latchbolt. The way the guardbolt is positioned will not allow the latchbolt to be depressed by means of using a credit card or some other thin, flat tool."

So what was on the door at 5A was "deadlatch"  with a deadbolt on top.  The door could be left with just the deadlatch or for deadlatch and deadbolt to be in place.

At appx 45:19 in Amaral's documentary the former PJ expert clearly shows the card jamming in a screw in the lock ... by no stretch of the imagination could it be referred to as a 'bolt'.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #424 on: November 30, 2018, 07:38:47 PM »
At appx 45:19 in Amaral's documentary the former PJ expert clearly shows the card jamming in a screw in the lock ... by no stretch of the imagination could it be referred to as a 'bolt'.
The door is not closed when that is demonstrated.  Was that footage part of the original PJ footage taken in May 2007? or after Amaral had written his book?

If the door had been closed and the card inserted and the card locked up against something and the door then opened to reveal what it had locked up against then I might accept what Alexandre Simas is saying.

Who is to say that with the door in place the card would be directed toward the screw head every time?
If the OC management depended on the screw head to provide security from burglary with the use of a pliable plastic card they need to be held accountable IMO.

Can you see the same screw head being proud in the original photos of 5A?

https://youtu.be/x_ZdDTsFC2g?t=2718
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Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #425 on: November 30, 2018, 07:46:08 PM »
Could be its taken that long for the PJ to admit they were wrong in the first place


Is there any evidence they are wrong?  They were looking at MBM having an accident...AND the dogs did follow her scent out side...


Looks like Briettas tag is out of date already- they are not treating  the case as an Abduction...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 01:06:00 AM by Brietta »
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #426 on: November 30, 2018, 07:55:59 PM »


Surely the security of the apartment is not dependent on that lower screw head picking up the edge of a plastic card!
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Offline Angelo222

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #427 on: November 30, 2018, 08:05:58 PM »


Surely the security of the apartment is not dependent on that lower screw head picking up the edge of a plastic card!

That screw is easily bypassed. 
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #428 on: November 30, 2018, 09:34:03 PM »
How do you know?  For when I investigated it  those two pieces are designed to move at times together and at other times independently.  One can prove this by look at the latch of most modern doors and you will be able to move both together if one was to press the latch bolt  but the other non bevelled bit can move independently without moving the latch The second bolt is there to prevent slipping a plastic card or whatever behind the latch bolt.

Now when Goncalo's security expert examines the front door he talks in Portuguese and we read the closed captions (from memory), but IMO Alexandre Simas  has his words translated incorrectly.  He talks of "screw" which I believe now to be "bolt", for there was no photograph showing a proud screw but we do have a latch with the latch bolt lock.

https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/04/maddie-truth-of-lie-documentary.htm

"43.25 - Final Evidence

43.28 – With the help from one of the major experts from the Scientific Police, who worked for the Polícia Judiciária, Alexandre Simas, Gonçalo Amaral intends to prove, first, that it was impossible for the child to be abducted, starting by demonstrating that the indications prove that the apartment’s window and door were not forced.

43.47 - How does one open a door like this, without the key?

Alexandre Simas
Expert (Former Polícia Judiciária)

43.51 – This type of apartment door, normally there are only three possibilities: to extract the lock’s cannon, which didn’t happen, or it would have been reported; a false key, a copy or one that was used without permission; or using a malleable material, as long as it’s not locked, it’s introduced, and it makes the lock go back inside. But when it goes in, even if it did, it would hit this screw. If it hits the screw, no matter how much I force it, it doesn’t jump to open the lock for me."

I'm sure now where it says "screw" the right word should have been "bolt".  When talking locks a bolt is not a threaded bolt with a head but a piece of metal that is movable.

But the interesting thing is the this proves beyond a doubt that the rim latch on 5A had been modified  in such a way that "will NOT be able to move both together if one was to press the latch bolt".

In the latch on the front door of 5A the two pieces of metal moved independently at all times

How do I know?
By knowing how latch bolts are fabricated/work and looking at the plethora of photos and "comics" on this very forum.
How locks in my house work or those in the house of a bloke in the next village who knows my next door neighbour work, is irrelevant.

Hint:
First work out how the lock works then take it from there.
Do NOT start off with a prejudged condition then try to figure how the lock must work or be modified to fit the prejudgement.




"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #429 on: November 30, 2018, 11:38:46 PM »
Is it clear ? Do we have a verifiable source  for the article ?

What about the dog alerts ? Was he simply wrong when Eddie alerted to only places and items associated with the McCanns ? Or do you believe in more nefarious goings on by Grime ?

And what of Smithman ? Was he connected to the case or are we to believe that it was merely coincidence that the child he was carrying was, physically, almost identical to Madeleine ? Or are we to believe that the driver who, allegedly, knocked Madeleine down didn’t put her in his/her car and went to find help or conceal the body but instead ran around PDL with the child in his/her arms ?
Can you explain why you find this scenario so hard to stomach but have absolutely no problem at all in imagining the father of a dead child carrying hiis daughter’s uncovered body through the streets of the town in search of a suitable bin in which to toss it?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Brietta

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #430 on: December 01, 2018, 01:02:08 AM »
The door is not closed when that is demonstrated.  Was that footage part of the original PJ footage taken in May 2007? or after Amaral had written his book?

If the door had been closed and the card inserted and the card locked up against something and the door then opened to reveal what it had locked up against then I might accept what Alexandre Simas is saying.

Who is to say that with the door in place the card would be directed toward the screw head every time?
If the OC management depended on the screw head to provide security from burglary with the use of a pliable plastic card they need to be held accountable IMO.

Can you see the same screw head being proud in the original photos of 5A?

https://youtu.be/x_ZdDTsFC2g?t=2718

At appx 44:37 on the video of Amaral's documentary, Alexandre Simas started the sequence by demonstrating the impossibility of using a credit card to spring the lock because of the presence of the screw.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #431 on: December 01, 2018, 03:23:49 AM »
At appx 44:37 on the video of Amaral's documentary, Alexandre Simas started the sequence by demonstrating the impossibility of using a credit card to spring the lock because of the presence of the screw.
If the door is closed he has to be able to get the card around the corner of the door first  I'd be very surprised if anyone could get a card near the screw.
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #432 on: December 01, 2018, 07:09:35 AM »

Is there any evidence they are wrong?  They were looking at MBM having an accident...AND the dogs did follow her scent out side...


Looks like Briettas tag is out of date already- they are not treating  the case as an Abduction...
So what happened to Madeleine after she allegedly woke and wandered? 
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #433 on: December 01, 2018, 07:31:53 AM »
If the door is closed he has to be able to get the card around the corner of the door first  I'd be very surprised if anyone could get a card near the screw.
The PJ are assessing how anyone could get in through the front door, as if there was an abduction.  What they haven't eliminated was the possibility of Madeleine leaving via the front door.
It is hard to get a key to the apartment.
It is even harder to get a card to push the spring latch back.

But it was dead easy for Madeleine to open the door from the inside.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Seems woke and wandered back in favour again.
« Reply #434 on: December 01, 2018, 07:39:59 AM »
So what happened to Madeleine after she allegedly woke and wandered?
IMO Madeleine got to the Secondary Reception gate but found the door closed.  Kate's concept of letting Madeleine to wander over to the Tapas Restaurant if she needed mummy or daddy depended on the door remaining open.
Could that open door be guaranteed?  I don't think so.
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