What to do in the event of a fire in Block 5? Or in apartment 5A?

[G-Unit]

Somewhere it was discussed (by Amaral IIRC)  that it wasn't possible to deadlock the doors from the outside, yet still enabling a person "locked" inside to be able to get out.  But I have yet to see how that was done.  Maybe the patio door access is what was meant.  If you can't get out the front door there is still the back door provided you can get across to there in a burning building.
In fact isn't that the purpose of a deadlock, i.e. to make it more difficult to get out.

A deadlock's purpose is to stop unauthorised entry. Why would anyone want to stop inhabitants from getting out?

[barrier]

Interesting.  So have there not been any revisions in health and saftey legislation since then?

There have but section 7 is still the same.

[Robittybob1]

A deadlock's purpose is to stop unauthorised entry. Why would anyone want to stop inhabitants from getting out?

If burglars entered via a window, if the doors are deadlocked they are restricted in what they are able to take.

That is what I was thinking anyway. 

"In the event of a fire, occupants will be prevented from escaping through double-cylinder locked doors unless the correct key is used. ... The risk can be mitigated by locking the deadlock only when there are no occupants inside the building, or leaving the key near the keyhole."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_bolt


But if the tenants are only supplied with the one key, if it is locked from the outside there can't be a "key near the keyhole".


"Safety
The double cylinder design raises a safety issue. In the event of a fire, occupants will be prevented from escaping through double-cylinder locked doors unless the correct key is used. This is often an avoidable cause of death in house fires.[4] The risk can be mitigated by locking the deadlock only when there are no occupants inside the building, or leaving the key near the keyhole. Some fire departments suggest putting the key on a small nail or screw near the door at floor level, since the cleanest air is at floor level and you may be crawling to get to the exit, thus placing the key where it is easiest to find.

Note that single cylinder dead locks (with an unlocked twist mechanism on the inside of the door) do not have this problem, and therefore are most commonly used on fire exits. Some areas have fire safety codes that do not allow a locked exit.[5][6]"

"Some areas have fire safety codes that do not allow a locked exit."  That might have been what Amaral was commenting on.  It may have been illegal to deadlock the doors with the kids inside.  Therefore the McCanns may have been more compliant compared to the others of the group who most (if not all) say they deadlocked their children in the rooms while they were at dinner.

[Alice Purjorick]

Interesting.  So have there not been any revisions in health and saftey legislation since then?

Yeah! CDM* Regs. But it's hard to see how that materially affects your original post.

* NB that is nothing to do with chocolate bars.

[jassi]

If burglars entered via a window, if the doors are deadlocked they are restricted in what they are able to take.

That is what I was thinking anyway. 

"In the event of a fire, occupants will be prevented from escaping through double-cylinder locked doors unless the correct key is used. ... The risk can be mitigated by locking the deadlock only when there are no occupants inside the building, or leaving the key near the keyhole."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_bolt


But if the tenants are only supplied with the one key, if it is locked from the outside there can't be a "key near the keyhole".


"Safety
The double cylinder design raises a safety issue. In the event of a fire, occupants will be prevented from escaping through double-cylinder locked doors unless the correct key is used. This is often an avoidable cause of death in house fires.[4] The risk can be mitigated by locking the deadlock only when there are no occupants inside the building, or leaving the key near the keyhole. Some fire departments suggest putting the key on a small nail or screw near the door at floor level, since the cleanest air is at floor level and you may be crawling to get to the exit, thus placing the key where it is easiest to find.

Note that single cylinder dead locks (with an unlocked twist mechanism on the inside of the door) do not have this problem, and therefore are most commonly used on fire exits. Some areas have fire safety codes that do not allow a locked exit.[5][6]"

I think that means deadlocking from inside and leaving key nearby.
Why would anyone want to deadlock a door from outside if people were inside the building?

[Robittybob1]

I think that means deadlocking from inside and leaving key nearby.
Why would anyone want to deadlock a door from outside if people were inside the building?

But that is what the other 3 families were doing.  They double locked their doors from the outside to prevent their kids getting out while they were at dinner.

I think you have to determine what had the greatest risk.  Was it house fire or being kidnapped?
Wandering off and getting lost is also a problem and I'd say that would rank fairly highly too.

[jassi]

But that is what the other 3 families were doing.  They double locked their doors from the outside to prevent their kids getting out while they were at dinner.

I think you have to determine what had the greatest risk.  Was it house fire or being kidnapped?
Wandering off and getting lost is also a problem and I'd say that would rank fairly highly too.

Do any of them actually say that they double locked the doors ?

In any event  their children would not have been capable of using a  key, even if onr had been left

[Robittybob1]

Do any of them actually say that they double locked the doors ?

I'm sure they did. 

[jassi]

I'm sure they did.

I think you need a cite for that

[Robittybob1]

I think you need a cite for that

Russell: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
"On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times.  We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same.  I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked.  I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside."

So that is Matt and Russell deadlocking their doors.  Whether David Payne describes his situation I can't recall.

David Payne: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

"1485 "Yeah. So generally as a rule when you were ready to go, how would you leave the apartment''
 Reply "Okay, so the, you know obviously the, err the bal, err the sliding doors and the balcony were always err shut err you know the monitor was always put in the position that we've err you know mentioned, which is you know on the floor between the two doors. Err and Fi would, you know, generally look after the monitor err the mobile unit and err and again as far as I can recall Dianne tended to be the most reliable to look after the key. Err and then you know so the door would be locked err you know you wouldn't be able to get in that door from the outside,  ... "

[jassi]

Thank you. 2 out of 3 is good enough 

[Robittybob1]

You sort of wonder if the thought of what the kids would do in an emergency wasn't behind Kate and Gerry's thinking as remembered by Fiona Payne:  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

"Reply
 'She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh'.
 
 01.15.57
 1485
 'So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking''
 
 
 Reply
 'Yeah'.
 
 
 1485
 'Did she say whether she had locked or''
 
 
 Reply
 'No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked'."
 

[Robittybob1]

Fiona nearly admits to deadlocking her kids in here:

" 00.14.55
 1485
 'So single locked it when you went out and double locked it when you was in''
 
 
 Reply
'No, we used to double lock when we were going in and out'.
 
 
 1485
 'In and out'."

I'd think you would find that against the fire regulations at the time.  So the other 3 families may have been clearly breaking the Portuguese law, but no charges are laid against them.

I can see the difficulty here, what should be done?  What is the best choice?

[G-Unit]

I think that means deadlocking from inside and leaving key nearby.
Why would anyone want to deadlock a door from outside if people were inside the building?

I woke up one morning when we lived in Germany to find that me and the kids couldn't get out of the front door. Our neighbour had double-locked our door the night before and taken the keys with him. (I'd gone to bed and left him and my husband drinking) I was reduced to shouting out of the window to his kids to get him or his wife to let us out.

[Robittybob1]

I woke up one morning when we lived in Germany to find that me and the kids couldn't get out of the front door. Our neighbour had double-locked our door the night before and taken the keys with him. (I'd gone to bed and left him and my husband drinking) I was reduced to shouting out of the window to his kids to get him or his wife to let us out.

That is a very unusual situation. Letting someone else to lock your doors and then taking the keys.