Author Topic: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases  (Read 2426 times)

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Offline Sunny

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2018, 11:25:31 AM »
Good to see you thinking laterally to progress Justice, Rob



At first glance Rob, your idea seems perfect, but on reflection, I must admit it bothers me


It seems a bit like a Police State.   Didn't Hitler want everyones last detail listed and stored ?   For a Master Race ?


If it got into the wrong hands then couldn't some megalomaniac cause a catastophic Apocolypse ?



I think it is OK, IMO, to keep the DNA of known offenders, maybe, but am not at all sure about everyones DNA being kept.   Bet there would be some shocks amongst families when they found their much loved father was not really their father.



What do others think ?

It doesn't happen often but I agree with you sadie on this (up to a point).  I didn't approve of the possible implementation of identity cards mooted by Gordon Brown a few years ago and this would be a step further onwards towards no privacy.  DNA retention for keeping records of terrorists and criminals-that I can agree with.  All iMO
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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2018, 11:27:43 AM »
Some people have been convicted through DNA of a family member that was stored on the data base due to another crime.
Yes there have been a few cases already, but what I'm advocating is the taking of DNA from deceased persons to set up a national database. 
I can't see how that could be  controversial as we would not be that concerned if that person wasn't the offspring of  their legal parents (as opposed to their biological parents).
I could imagine it would be problematic if babies were DNA tested for "fathers" might be real keen to see if they were the biological father.
So don't use babies but use any deceased person.   
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Online Eleanor

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2018, 11:30:32 AM »
Yes there have been a few cases already, but what I'm advocating is the taking of DNA from deceased persons to set up a national database. 
I can't see how that could be  controversial as we would not be that concerned if that person wasn't the offspring of  their legal parents (as opposed to their biological parents).
I could imagine it would be problematic if babies were DNA tested for "fathers" might be real keen to see if they were the biological father.
So don't use babies but use any deceased person.

This needs some discussion, Rob.  Some might find it unethical.

Personally, they can have my DNA anytime they care to ask.  The decision would be mine.

Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2018, 05:48:39 PM »
This needs some discussion, Rob.  Some might find it unethical.

Personally, they can have my DNA anytime they care to ask.  The decision would be mine.
When the people see how effective it would be in solving criminal cases, I do believe people would drop that objection.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 07:23:13 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Online Eleanor

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2018, 06:03:43 PM »
When the people see how effective it would be in solving criminal cases, I do believe people to drop that objection.

For me, it would be forever unethical to take the DNA of anyone, dead or alive without their permission, unless they are convicted of a crime.

As it is they are having trouble in getting people to donate organs after death.  DNA is the same to me.

PS.  Nope, under no circumstances am I ever likely to donate my organs.

Offline Brietta

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2018, 06:24:47 PM »
For me, it would be forever unethical to take the DNA of anyone, dead or alive without their permission, unless they are convicted of a crime.

As it is they are having trouble in getting people to donate organs after death.  DNA is the same to me.

PS.  Nope, under no circumstances am I ever likely to donate my organs.

I intend my organs to be so clapped out by the time I'm finished with them that they'll be of no use to anyone ... I'm not so precious about giving a DNA sample nor do I have any objection at all to a data base. 
In some circumstances it could be a good thing.

I can see the benefits ~ particularly as the procedure isn't too invasive or at all painful ~ but I can also see that there could be drawbacks too; which leads me to agree that people must have the choice of making an informed decision whether or not to have a DNA sample taken.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2018, 07:12:59 PM »
I intend my organs to be so clapped out by the time I'm finished with them that they'll be of no use to anyone ... I'm not so precious about giving a DNA sample nor do I have any objection at all to a data base. 
In some circumstances it could be a good thing.

I can see the benefits ~ particularly as the procedure isn't too invasive or at all painful ~ but I can also see that there could be drawbacks too; which leads me to agree that people must have the choice of making an informed decision whether or not to have a DNA sample taken.

Fair enough but in your opinion do all of those drawbacks finish when the person giving the sample has died?
Could you detail a possible drawback so I can see whether there are solutions to these problems please?

Nothing would stop a family member trying to prove another sibling wasn't a biological relation.  I could imagine a child trying to cut out other non related rivals to the estate of a parent.
But the results of the Familial DNA database would never be made public. It must never be a public database.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 07:25:48 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2018, 07:16:57 PM »
For me, it would be forever unethical to take the DNA of anyone, dead or alive without their permission, unless they are convicted of a crime.

As it is they are having trouble in getting people to donate organs after death.  DNA is the same to me.

PS.  Nope, under no circumstances am I ever likely to donate my organs.
You seem to have contradicted yourself Eleanor, as one moment you  are willing to give DNA at anytime and then later only with permission.  Organ donation should be the same, let the doctors determine whether your tissues are of any help.
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Online Eleanor

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2018, 07:28:59 PM »
You seem to have contradicted yourself Eleanor, as one moment you  are willing to give DNA at anytime and then later only with permission.  Organ donation should be the same, let the doctors determine whether your tissues are of any help.

That was it.  I just gave permission.  My choice.

Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2018, 07:37:35 PM »
That was it.  I just gave permission.  My choice.
What about when you are deceased?  You are not here to give permission.  Therefore I think the DNA submission needs to be made compulsory.  For in some families there would be a real objection to allowing it for they would have secrets they'd wish to remain hidden.
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Online Eleanor

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2018, 07:43:23 PM »
What about when you are deceased?  You are not here to give permission.  Therefore I think the DNA submission needs to be made compulsory.  For in some families there would be a real objection to allowing it for they would have secrets they'd wish to remain hidden.

You have to give permission for them to take your organs before you die.  The same should apply to DNA.

It isn't because it isn't a good idea, Rob.  But some things should remain sacred.  Nicking someone's DNA after they are dead is a step too far for me.

Online G-Unit

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2018, 08:15:46 PM »
You seem to have contradicted yourself Eleanor, as one moment you  are willing to give DNA at anytime and then later only with permission.  Organ donation should be the same, let the doctors determine whether your tissues are of any help.

You can't just point to a group of people and say 'let them decide'. Not everyone can be trusted to make ethical decisions.
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2018, 08:56:09 PM »
If it fails the LBJ test bin it.
In case you have forgotten:
"You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered". Lyndon Baines Johnson.


Liberals will always provide dictators with all the legislation needed by said dictators to be unpleasant legally....odd innit... *%87

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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2018, 10:54:45 PM »
If it fails the LBJ test bin it.
In case you have forgotten:
"You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered". Lyndon Baines Johnson.


Liberals will always provide dictators with all the legislation needed by said dictators to be unpleasant legally....odd innit... *%87
I've been waiting for someone to list a few "harms it would cause if improperly administered".
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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2018, 10:59:31 PM »
Would be OK for identification purposes if family members were already on the data base, but most of the population (UK) probably isn't.

Wouldn't help much with an undiscovered body, who is just classed as missing.
The idea is to widen the scope of the database by including all families over a period of time.
In some cases they haven't got a body but DNA evidence of the victim and perpetrator at a crime scene.  After a while there can be enough circumstantial evidence to produce a case.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 07:30:26 AM by Robittybob1 »
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