Author Topic: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases  (Read 2891 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

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Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« on: December 28, 2018, 05:13:47 PM »
Since the board has gone a bit quieter over the last several months I have been listening to YouTube videos on murder cases, solved and unsolved.

After listening to hundreds of them, (and I just let the computer select the next for there are thousands of investigations covered over the years), I'm wondering if I'm learning anything that might help solve the McCann case.

Without a doubt a lot of murders are committed by family and people known to the family.

There also seemed to be a high proportion of repeat offenders especially soon after being released from a previous stint in prison.

But the one group that has surprised me are these serial killers who can clock up 25, 50, or even more victims before getting caught, and then often because they had not completed the job correctly and they were identified by one of the victims.

So how were these cases listed on the police files, were they just missing persons?   

If they pick up a stranger, and take them in a car to some quite deserted location and they kill and bury the victim, they seem to get away with it.  They are particularly hard group to catch.


I have become mindful of how important DNA databases are and I came up with this thought that  all deceased persons should have their DNA taken and that their DNA profile should be stored  for the purposes of familial DNA matching.

Would that be possible?  What do you think about that?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 05:18:18 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 05:24:40 PM »
This officer tends to be happy with familial DNA testing, but he didn't mention how to build the database.
https://youtu.be/qRKj41tNZk4 
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Offline jassi

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2018, 06:02:26 PM »
Would be OK for identification purposes if family members were already on the data base, but most of the population (UK) probably isn't.

Wouldn't help much with an undiscovered body, who is just classed as missing.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
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I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2018, 06:55:13 PM »
Would be OK for identification purposes if family members were already on the data base, but most of the population (UK) probably isn't.

Wouldn't help much with an undiscovered body, who is just classed as missing.
A john Doe or Jane Doe is one of the hardest murders to solve  as the police like looking at family members and associates which can't be done if they don't know who they are.

It is just a thought at the moment, but it seemed such a great idea I was wondering if I should go political on the issue. 
I'd like to know what samples are currently kept in the current DNA databases.

obvious offenders are kept (I suspect).
What about the samples submitted by suspects who are cleared?  Are their DNA results kept in the database?

« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 07:02:06 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline jassi

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2018, 07:09:59 PM »
A john Doe or Jane Doe is one of the hardest murders to solve  as the police like looking at family members and associates which can't be done if they don't know who they are.

It is just a thought at the moment, but it seemed such a great idea I was wondering if I should go political on the issue. 
I'd like to know what samples are currently kept in the current DNA databases.

obvious offenders are kept (I suspect).
What about the samples submitted by suspects who are cleared?  Are their DNA results kept in the database?

In the UK, they are supposed to be deleted, but police would like to keep them in perpetuity, so not sure what happens in reality.

How would you know if your DNA had actually been deleted and wasn't being retained in a secret data base ?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2018, 09:36:24 PM »
from Wikipedia:
"In the UK, police have wide-ranging powers to take DNA samples and retain them if the subject is convicted of a recordable offence.[15][16] As the large amount of DNA profiles which have been stored in NDNAD, "cold hits" may happen during the DNA matching, which means finding an unexpected match between an individual's DNA profile and an unsolved crime-scene DNA profile.This can introduce a new suspect into the investigation, thus helping to solve the old cases.[17]

In England and Wales, anyone arrested on suspicion of a recordable offence must submit a DNA sample, the profile of which is then stored on the DNA database. Those not charged or not found guilty have their DNA data deleted within a specified period of time.[18] In Scotland, the law similarly requires the DNA profiles of most people who are acquitted be removed from the database."

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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2018, 09:52:24 PM »
Here is a weird situation "In July 2009, a lawyer, Lorraine Elliot, was arrested on accusations of forgery which were quickly proven to be false. A DNA sample was taken from her and logged. She was cleared of the accusations a day later and exonerated. However, Mrs Elliot subsequently lost her job (even though she was completely innocent of any crime) when the fact that her DNA profile was stored on the national database was discovered during a subsequent work-related security check. In 2010 she was finally able to have her details removed from the database.[28]"

Collecting DNA from deceased individuals would prevent situations like that.
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Offline sadie

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2018, 12:07:01 AM »
Good to see you thinking laterally to progress Justice, Rob



At first glance Rob, your idea seems perfect, but on reflection, I must admit it bothers me


It seems a bit like a Police State.   Didn't Hitler want everyones last detail listed and stored ?   For a Master Race ?


If it got into the wrong hands then couldn't some megalomaniac cause a catastophic Apocolypse ?



I think it is OK, IMO, to keep the DNA of known offenders, maybe, but am not at all sure about everyones DNA being kept.   Bet there would be some shocks amongst families when they found their much loved father was not really their father.



What do others think ?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 12:19:46 AM by sadie »

Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2018, 10:07:30 AM »
Good to see you thinking laterally to progress Justice, Rob



At first glance Rob, your idea seems perfect, but on reflection, I must admit it bothers me


It seems a bit like a Police State.   Didn't Hitler want everyones last detail listed and stored ?   For a Master Race ?


If it got into the wrong hands then couldn't some megalomaniac cause a catastophic Apocolypse ?



I think it is OK, IMO, to keep the DNA of known offenders, maybe, but am not at all sure about everyones DNA being kept.   Bet there would be some shocks amongst families when they found their much loved father was not really their father.



What do others think ?
Even if the deceased ended up being a serial killer, it is too late to do anything about it.  You are right though  this familial DNA analysis only works properly in families without scandal.  They probably have a way of getting around those things.
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Online Eleanor

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2018, 10:19:53 AM »

Some people have been convicted through DNA of a family member that was stored on the data base due to another crime.

Offline jassi

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2018, 10:42:18 AM »
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Online G-Unit

Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2018, 10:51:18 AM »
Even if the deceased ended up being a serial killer, it is too late to do anything about it.  You are right though  this familial DNA analysis only works properly in families without scandal.  They probably have a way of getting around those things.

Knowing whether their children were truly theirs has always posed a problem for men. That's why women were locked up in harems and guarded by eunuchs, for example.

There has been controversy about hospitals keeping new born heel prick samples beyond the official five year guideline in the UK. There have been suspicions that a national DNA database was being created without people's knowledge or consent.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/7756320/DNA-database-created-from-babies-blood-samples.html

I assume that the British police got a court order to obtain Madeleine McCann's heel prick, because they sent it to the FSS to be checked against the sample of her DNA taken from her pillowcase.
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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2018, 11:15:46 AM »
Only works with males, apparently - https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-rights/familial-dna-searches.html
From the above link:
"Current forms of familial DNA searches work only with men. This is because techniques in common use to determine exact familial relations involve analysis of similarities on the Y chromosome."

There could be ways around this.
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Online Eleanor


Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Thoughts on the case. Setting up familial DNA databases
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2018, 11:20:20 AM »
Knowing whether their children were truly theirs has always posed a problem for men. That's why women were locked up in harems and guarded by eunuchs, for example.

There has been controversy about hospitals keeping new born heel prick samples beyond the official five year guideline in the UK. There have been suspicions that a national DNA database was being created without people's knowledge or consent.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/7756320/DNA-database-created-from-babies-blood-samples.html

I assume that the British police got a court order to obtain Madeleine McCann's heel prick, because they sent it to the FSS to be checked against the sample of her DNA taken from her pillowcase.
I would only think there was a national database if the heel prick samples were analysed immediately.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?