The timeline revisited

[Brietta]

I bear no malice. I am seeking justice. Again, instead of the ad hominem retorts it would make for a more productive forum debate if you instead attempted to answer my questions.

The trained professionals of the BKA - SY - and the PJ are presently working assiduously to seek justice for Madeleine and who knows how many others. 

I'm sure you and your fellow "justice seekers" are behind them 100% in their endeavours.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

You don’t think providing answers and reassurances hasn’t been tried a million times?  This is where the obtuseness from those demanding answers comes into it.  You really are no better than holocaust deniers and 9/11 truthers.  Nothing, no answer, no reassurance will ever sway you from your beliefs.

If I'm shown concrete evidence to prove that Madeleine was abducted I would have no problem believing it. Instead though I see more evidence that points towards a death in the apartment. Eddie and Keela far from barking randomly were far more specific and it is undeniable that their alerts were only in property used by the McCann's. Indeed, the highly experienced expert dog handler with years of experience, Martin Grime, stated:

"My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.
I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

We know that forensic evidence was collected from areas where both dogs alerted and we know that the "human cellular material" collected could have come from Madeleine McCann:

"An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann."

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

We also know that Martin Smith believes the man he saw carrying a child at around 10pm could very well have been Gerry McCann. We know that despite claims to leave no stone unturned the Smith family sighting was ignored by Clarence Mitchell for months!! Surely it is reasonable to believe that parents wanting to recover a missing child would be desperate to find out who Smithman was. Instead they wanted to ignore him. Why?

We know that Kate and Gerry didn't join the initial search around PDL. After a superficial search around the holiday complex they instead took time to delete their mobile phone call logs. Why? They later went out together reportedly around 6am. Why wait so long to search for your own child?  Has it ever been established where they went on this search and which route they took?

There are many valid questions which remain unanswered because OG made the error, imo, of neglecting to "clear the ground" from under the parents feet. This error, and the error of ignoring the Smith sighting have been highlighted by former UK homicide detective Colin Sutton:

"Former Scotland Yard murder detective Colin Sutton is one of a number of experienced officers who believe the Smith sighting is one of the most important pieces of evidence available to the investigation.

According to media reports, Sutton had been tipped to head up the new probe by British police in 2010. He claims he received a call shortly after these reports from a high-ranking friend in the Met who warned him not to take on the job as he would not be happy being told what he could and could not look at.

Several aspects of the new investigation perplex him including the apparent decision by Operation Grange not to question Gerry and Kate McCann or their friends again.

“Looking at the background to the whole case again, inconvenient suggestions like the Smith sightings, have been dismissed on a number of occasions”, he says: "When someone comes forward like that, it must be taken very seriously. It wasn’t just a throwaway phone call. It was something quite specific. The fact that Mr Smith’s memory was triggered by Gerry McCann carrying the child down the steps of the plane is quite relevant because I think that is how the mind works. It is a trigger I would take quite seriously.
I can see no reason why Martin Smith would make up these claims. He has nothing to gain from doing so.”

https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/colin-sutton/

[Brietta]

If I'm shown concrete evidence to prove that Madeleine was abducted I would have no problem believing it. Instead though I see more evidence that points towards a death in the apartment. Eddie and Keela far from barking randomly were far more specific and it is undeniable that their alerts were only in property used by the McCann's. Indeed, the highly experienced expert dog handler with years of experience, Martin Grime, stated:

"My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.
I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

We know that forensic evidence was collected from areas where both dogs alerted and we know that the "human cellular material" collected could have come from Madeleine McCann:

"An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann."

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

We also know that Martin Smith believes the man he saw carrying a child at around 10pm could very well have been Gerry McCann. We know that despite claims to leave no stone unturned the Smith family sighting was ignored by Clarence Mitchell for months!! Surely it is reasonable to believe that parents wanting to recover a missing child would be desperate to find out who Smithman was. Instead they wanted to ignore him. Why?

We know that Kate and Gerry didn't join the initial search around PDL. After a superficial search around the holiday complex they instead took time to delete their mobile phone call logs. Why? They later went out together reportedly around 6am. Why wait so long to search for your own child?  Has it ever been established where they went on this search and which route they took?

There are many valid questions which remain unanswered because OG made the error, imo, of neglecting to "clear the ground" from under the parents feet. This error, and the error of ignoring the Smith sighting have been highlighted by former UK homicide detective Colin Sutton:

"Former Scotland Yard murder detective Colin Sutton is one of a number of experienced officers who believe the Smith sighting is one of the most important pieces of evidence available to the investigation.

According to media reports, Sutton had been tipped to head up the new probe by British police in 2010. He claims he received a call shortly after these reports from a high-ranking friend in the Met who warned him not to take on the job as he would not be happy being told what he could and could not look at.

Several aspects of the new investigation perplex him including the apparent decision by Operation Grange not to question Gerry and Kate McCann or their friends again.

“Looking at the background to the whole case again, inconvenient suggestions like the Smith sightings, have been dismissed on a number of occasions”, he says: "When someone comes forward like that, it must be taken very seriously. It wasn’t just a throwaway phone call. It was something quite specific. The fact that Mr Smith’s memory was triggered by Gerry McCann carrying the child down the steps of the plane is quite relevant because I think that is how the mind works. It is a trigger I would take quite seriously.
I can see no reason why Martin Smith would make up these claims. He has nothing to gain from doing so.”

https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/colin-sutton/

There isn’t really much to be said about that sceptic diatribe except that the timeline has progressed from the mistakes of the past to the present day where the investigation continues.

The suspect who was suspected of something by the PJ but who was allowed to slip unquestioned through their fingers in 2007 is currently under investigation.

Truth seekers and justice seeker claimants could be expected to be content with the thought that at long last the unequivocal truth about what actually happened to Madeleine might soon be out. With even the possibility of the miracle that she could be alive somewhere to be considered.

I think your bluff has been called on that though.  Don’t you 😁 

[Vertigo Swirl]

Because the Nazi Holocaust is a well documented, well researched, and there is concrete evidence to prove the existence of ghettos, Einsatzgruppen actions, concentration camps and extermination camps. There is not such a body of concrete evidence to support the narrative that Madeleine McCann was abducted.

Missing.  The.  Point. 

[Vertigo Swirl]

If I'm shown concrete evidence to prove that Madeleine was abducted I would have no problem believing it. Instead though I see more evidence that points towards a death in the apartment. Eddie and Keela far from barking randomly were far more specific and it is undeniable that their alerts were only in property used by the McCann's. Indeed, the highly experienced expert dog handler with years of experience, Martin Grime, stated:

"My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.
I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

We know that forensic evidence was collected from areas where both dogs alerted and we know that the "human cellular material" collected could have come from Madeleine McCann:

"An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann."

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

We also know that Martin Smith believes the man he saw carrying a child at around 10pm could very well have been Gerry McCann. We know that despite claims to leave no stone unturned the Smith family sighting was ignored by Clarence Mitchell for months!! Surely it is reasonable to believe that parents wanting to recover a missing child would be desperate to find out who Smithman was. Instead they wanted to ignore him. Why?

We know that Kate and Gerry didn't join the initial search around PDL. After a superficial search around the holiday complex they instead took time to delete their mobile phone call logs. Why? They later went out together reportedly around 6am. Why wait so long to search for your own child?  Has it ever been established where they went on this search and which route they took?

There are many valid questions which remain unanswered because OG made the error, imo, of neglecting to "clear the ground" from under the parents feet. This error, and the error of ignoring the Smith sighting have been highlighted by former UK homicide detective Colin Sutton:

"Former Scotland Yard murder detective Colin Sutton is one of a number of experienced officers who believe the Smith sighting is one of the most important pieces of evidence available to the investigation.

According to media reports, Sutton had been tipped to head up the new probe by British police in 2010. He claims he received a call shortly after these reports from a high-ranking friend in the Met who warned him not to take on the job as he would not be happy being told what he could and could not look at.

Several aspects of the new investigation perplex him including the apparent decision by Operation Grange not to question Gerry and Kate McCann or their friends again.

“Looking at the background to the whole case again, inconvenient suggestions like the Smith sightings, have been dismissed on a number of occasions”, he says: "When someone comes forward like that, it must be taken very seriously. It wasn’t just a throwaway phone call. It was something quite specific. The fact that Mr Smith’s memory was triggered by Gerry McCann carrying the child down the steps of the plane is quite relevant because I think that is how the mind works. It is a trigger I would take quite seriously.
I can see no reason why Martin Smith would make up these claims. He has nothing to gain from doing so.”

https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/colin-sutton/

You forgot to mention Kate’s earrings.  And didn’t she once get her hair done too?  I would suggest that instead of trying to convince me of the McCanns’ guilt that you send this post to Operation Grange and the BKA.  Maybe they are unaware of the wealth of evidence pointing to the McCanns? As a “justice seeker” I believe it is your duty to do this.  Good luck!

[Mr Gray]

If I'm shown concrete evidence to prove that Madeleine was abducted I would have no problem believing it. Instead though I see more evidence that points towards a death in the apartment. Eddie and Keela far from barking randomly were far more specific and it is undeniable that their alerts were only in property used by the McCann's. Indeed, the highly experienced expert dog handler with years of experience, Martin Grime, stated:

"My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.
I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

We know that forensic evidence was collected from areas where both dogs alerted and we know that the "human cellular material" collected could have come from Madeleine McCann:

"An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann."

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

We also know that Martin Smith believes the man he saw carrying a child at around 10pm could very well have been Gerry McCann. We know that despite claims to leave no stone unturned the Smith family sighting was ignored by Clarence Mitchell for months!! Surely it is reasonable to believe that parents wanting to recover a missing child would be desperate to find out who Smithman was. Instead they wanted to ignore him. Why?

We know that Kate and Gerry didn't join the initial search around PDL. After a superficial search around the holiday complex they instead took time to delete their mobile phone call logs. Why? They later went out together reportedly around 6am. Why wait so long to search for your own child?  Has it ever been established where they went on this search and which route they took?

There are many valid questions which remain unanswered because OG made the error, imo, of neglecting to "clear the ground" from under the parents feet. This error, and the error of ignoring the Smith sighting have been highlighted by former UK homicide detective Colin Sutton:

"Former Scotland Yard murder detective Colin Sutton is one of a number of experienced officers who believe the Smith sighting is one of the most important pieces of evidence available to the investigation.

According to media reports, Sutton had been tipped to head up the new probe by British police in 2010. He claims he received a call shortly after these reports from a high-ranking friend in the Met who warned him not to take on the job as he would not be happy being told what he could and could not look at.

Several aspects of the new investigation perplex him including the apparent decision by Operation Grange not to question Gerry and Kate McCann or their friends again.

“Looking at the background to the whole case again, inconvenient suggestions like the Smith sightings, have been dismissed on a number of occasions”, he says: "When someone comes forward like that, it must be taken very seriously. It wasn’t just a throwaway phone call. It was something quite specific. The fact that Mr Smiths:’s memory was triggered by Gerry McCann carrying the child down the steps of the plane is quite relevant because I think that is how the mind works. It is a trigger I would take quite seriously.
I can see no reason why Martin Smith would make up these claims. He has nothing to gain from doing so.”

https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/tag/colin-sutton/

Your post is complete and utter tripe... The points you raise have been discussed and shown to be of no importance many times.... Particularly the dog alerts.. Imo.


Martin Grime and Harrison came up with a new idea that the, alerts, could be used, as intelligence.. Grime eventually took it one step futher and decided they could be used as evidence.  Grime used PDL to showcase his new business that would eventually earn him almost 100 K in Jersey... Where his contribution to the investigation was heavily critised by an official review.
I wondered why Harrison to a certain extent contradicted himself Re the dogs... Imo it was because it was a new idea that had not been properly thought through


As regards Sutton I think it would be more interesting to hear his current views on the investigation

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

There isn’t really much to be said about that sceptic diatribe except that the timeline has progressed from the mistakes of the past to the present day where the investigation continues.

The suspect who was suspected of something by the PJ but who was allowed to slip unquestioned through their fingers in 2007 is currently under investigation.

Truth seekers and justice seeker claimants could be expected to be content with the thought that at long last the unequivocal truth about what actually happened to Madeleine might soon be out. With even the possibility of the miracle that she could be alive somewhere to be considered.

I think your bluff has been called on that though.  Don’t you 😁

I think the fact is that you consistently fail to address the valid questions raised and this is why they continue to be asked.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Missing.  The.  Point.

How so?

[Eleanor]

I think the fact is that you consistently fail to address the valid questions raised and this is why they continue to be asked.

The questions aren't valid anymore.

[Vertigo Swirl]

How so?

see reply #1945

[G-Unit]

The questions aren't valid anymore.

That sounds like they were valid at some point in time, so what changed?

[Vertigo Swirl]

I think the fact is that you consistently fail to address the valid questions raised and this is why they continue to be asked.

Have you any idea how many times these so-called “valid questions “ have been addressed?  The whole forum is about pretty much nothing else!

[Eleanor]

That sounds like they were valid at some point in time, so what changed?

See Reply 1976 from VS.

[Mr Gray]

I think the fact is that you consistently fail to address the valid questions raised and this is why they continue to be asked.

I think you need to check the facts before making claims... Your post included..




Several aspects of the new investigation perplex him including the apparent decision by Operation Grange not to question Gerry and Kate McCann or their friends again.

That is not what Sutton said. I would say it's certain that OG did interview the McCann's again

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Have you any idea how many times these so-called “valid questions “ have been addressed?  The whole forum is about pretty much nothing else!

And I'm yet to read anything that convinces me that the questions have been satisfactorily addressed. Look at Dave, for example. He is basically accusing a UK Police dog handler with 35 years experience of gross professional misconduct with the intent of feathering his own nest. I'm sorry but that just doesn't sound credible. The fact is that evidence was collected in areas where the dogs alerted. The FSS stated: ""An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann." Dave describes pointing this fact out as "complete and total tripe". As I said earlier such retorts do not address the issues. If he believes that Martin Grime was guilty of perverting the course of justice and gross professional misconduct then it his him, not me, that should be reporting his concerns to the Police.

On the Smith sighting attempts have been made to smear him or to claim it can't have been Gerry McCann as he was elsewhere at 22:03. Yet at the same time the same posters concede we can't believe anything in the PJ Files as it may have been "lost in translation". So there is nothing in the public domain, independent of the T9, that is offered to prove Gerry McCann was not the man that the Smith family saw.

No-one has attempted to answer why deleting call logs and text messages was so important for Kate and Gerry. I can't imagine how damning these same posters would find it if CB had spent his time immediately after the alarm was raised deleting texts and his mobile phone call log.

Colin Sutton is open minded. He has seen nothing recently that makes him believe the parents were involved in Madeleine's disappearance, but he is on record as saying science advances and loyalties change and this fact could be key.