27 Times...

[Holly Goodhead]

This is the number of times approximately GM/KM departed the unlocked patio doors during the evenings.  If they left @ 8.30 pm for tapas and checked every 30 mins with the last check at 11.00 pm this would amount to 6 x's Sun - Wed and 3 x's on Thu.  Most people will either sit out on the balcony and then go in when it gets cold/dark sliding the doors closed and locking them from within.  Or most people will go out for the evening via the front door which can be locked from outside and reenter this way too. 

Also please bear in mind how strange this might have sounded to Mrs Fenn who had lived above the McCanns for some 4 years.  She would come to know what was usual and what wasn't with regard to the habits of holidaymakers.  I would suggest hearing the patio doors sliding open and closed several times a night was not usual.  I've lived in a well appointed apartment and sound travels especially doors.  It's not a case of being nosey but just taking on board ambient noise from the environment.  Although in the case of Mrs Fenn she might well have been somewhat hypervigiliant having sustained a recent attempted burglary. 

Once T9 were seated in the tapas restaurant many could observe from vanatage points all this to and fro activity?  Furthermore, according to BO, the group was, perhaps unsurprisingly, rather loud! 

[Holly Goodhead]

It is the above imo that makes the case extremely unusual coupled with having someone who was aware of the above and chose to use it to his/her advantage to procure a child for whatever reason. 

Two highly unusual events coming together. 

You could have a situation where a family did what the McCanns did every night for 10 years and not have a problem.

You could have a situation where the most dangerous would be child abductor lived on the complex for 10 years and not have a problem.

The problem arose simply as a result of the two situations above coming together and colliding ie a freak occurrence. 

[G-Unit]

Do you have any evidence that the patio doots were left open every evening? They weren't on Sunday evening according to Gerry MvCann;

 That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked
 https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

[Eleanor]

Do you have any evidence that the patio doots were left open every evening? They weren't on Sunday evening according to Gerry MvCann;

 That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked
 https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

Is this relevant?

[Holly Goodhead]

Do you have any evidence that the patio doots were left open every evening? They weren't on Sunday evening according to Gerry MvCann;

 That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked
 https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I thought we covered this previously/recently? 

The McCanns confirmed they left for tapas at 8.30pm every night via the patio doors.
The McCanns confirmed they checked every night via the patio doors.
RO who checked at circa 9.30pm on 3rd May confirmed he checked via the patio doors.
Mrs Fenn confirmed she heard the parents enter on 1st May at circa 11.45pm via the patio doors.

Here's the reconstruction vid and at approx 13.30 in GM confirms they carried out the checks via the patio doors so as not to disturb the children by using the front door which was a) nearer the children's room and b) may well have made more noise in closing it than the patio door in sliding it over.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9058.msg442846#msg442846

[Holly Goodhead]

Is this relevant?

Tbh I don't think any of the posts are relevant except mine 

[Robittybob1]

Tbh I don't think any of the posts are relevant except mine 

I have had that feeling for some time now.  I think I've always suffered from a type of persecution complex.

[Holly Goodhead]

I have had that feeling for some time now.  I think I've always suffered from a type of persecution complex.

You mean you think I think only my posts are relevant?  Or you think only your own posts are relevant? 

[Robittybob1]

You mean you think I think only my posts are relevant?  Or you think only your own posts are relevant?

Maybe, but I don't think only my posts are relevant.  I look at this forum as a team all working together to possibly solve this case.  There is enough dedication and brain power to do it IMO.

I'm not sure if you feel part of the team as yet.  You are more like me about 3 years ago.

[Holly Goodhead]

Maybe, but I don't think only my posts are relevant.  I look at this forum as a team all working together to possibly solve this case.  There is enough dedication and brain power to do it IMO.

I'm not sure if you feel part of the team as yet.  You are more like me about 3 years ago.

I agree it is teamwork.  Many pairs of eyes from different backgrounds.  Also we are not under any pressure or expectation.  Plus we have not been trained to look at something in a particular way which can help imo in the more unusual cases.

But I have not just looked at this case so I bring knowledge from other cases which helps.  Eg I know the LCN DNA tests are meaningless based on the research I did on Bamber.  I know wit stats and timelines are only ever approx and will always show benign inconsistencies based on Bamber, Essex Boys and Jill Dando/Barry George.  I know efits and witness sightings are unreliable based on Jill Dando/Barry George.

[G-Unit]

I thought we covered this previously/recently? 

The McCanns confirmed they left for tapas at 8.30pm every night via the patio doors.
The McCanns confirmed they checked every night via the patio doors.
RO who checked at circa 9.30pm on 3rd May confirmed he checked via the patio doors.
Mrs Fenn confirmed she heard the parents enter on 1st May at circa 11.45pm via the patio doors.

Here's the reconstruction vid and at approx 13.30 in GM confirms they carried out the checks via the patio doors so as not to disturb the children by using the front door which was a) nearer the children's room and b) may well have made more noise in closing it than the patio door in sliding it over.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9058.msg442846#msg442846

You're not quoting facts, Holly. You're quoting what two witnesses said are facts. The witnesses may or may not be telling the truth.

Was Russell telling the truth about Sunday evening? He claimed he used the patio doors to check the McCann children, but both McCanns claim those doors were not unlocked on Sunday.

Mrs Fenn assumed the parents had arrived when she heard the patio doors open, but she didn't see them. It could have been one or both arriving or leaving or even someone else.

[Holly Goodhead]

You're not quoting facts, Holly. You're quoting what two witnesses said are facts. The witnesses may or may not be telling the truth.

Was Russell telling the truth about Sunday evening? He claimed he used the patio doors to check the MvCann children, but both McCanns claim those doors were not unlocked on Sunday.

Mrs Fenn assumed the parents had arrived when she heard the patio doors open, but she didn't see them. It could have been one or both arriving or leaving or even someone else.

I didn't say what I quoted was fact.

Why do you think the McCanns would say they left for tapas via patio doors and carried out the checks via these doors if this wasn't the case? 

Why do you think RO would say he checked on 3rd May at circa 9.30 pm via the patio doors if this wasn't the case?

Mrs Fenn heard what she thought was MM crying on 1st May from 10.30 pm to 11.45 pm.  She also heard a child calling Daddy, Daddy.  Apparently all of this got louder and more expressive to the point she was so worried she felt the need to call a friend and discussed.  At approx 11.45 pm she heard the patio doors open and the noise ceased.  If this wasn't the McCanns entering who do you think it was?

[G-Unit]

I didn't say what I quoted was fact.

Why do you think the McCanns would say they left for tapas via patio doors and carried out the checks via these doors if this wasn't the case? 

Why do you think RO would say he checked on 3rd May at circa 9.30 pm via the patio doors if this wasn't the case?

Mrs Fenn heard what she thought was MM crying on 1st May from 10.30 pm to 11.45 pm.  She also heard a child calling Daddy, Daddy.  Apparently all of this got louder and more expressive to the point she was so worried she felt the need to call a friend and discussed.  At approx 11.45 pm she heard the patio doors open and the noise ceased.  If this wasn't the McCanns entering who do you think it was?

By calculating how many times the patio doors were used to enter/exit 5A you're inferring that you accept as a fact that they were so used.

Why might people say the patio doors were unlocked Monday-Thursday evening if they weren't? Obviously I don't know, but hypothetically to hide the fact that they were only left open on 3rd.

You may agree with Mrs Fenn that the patio doors were heard sliding on Tuesday because the parents were returning, but as neither of you saw them it's still an assumption. The fact is that she heard the patio doors, not that it was the parents moving them.

[Holly Goodhead]

By calculating how many times the patio doors were used to enter/exit 5A you're inferring that you accept as a fact that they were so used.

Why might people say the patio doors were unlocked Monday-Thursday evening if they weren't? Obviously I don't know, but hypothetically to hide the fact that they were only left open on 3rd.

You may agree with Mrs Fenn that the patio doors were heard sliding on Tuesday because the parents were returning, but as neither of you saw them it's still an assumption. The fact is that she heard the patio doors, not that it was the parents moving them.

But to make progress you have to use reasonable and sensible inferences. 

You say you obviously don't know why they would say they used these doors it they didn't and that's just it there's no reasonable explanation to explain why they would say this if it wasn't true.  Even if one takes the position they were directly involved in MM's death how does having the patio doors unlocked assist?

Agree Mrs Fenn did not see the McCanns arrive but I think its reasonable to draw a sensible inference:

- Mrs Fenn hears what she thinks is MM crying and calling Daddy, Daddy which gets louder and more expressive
- This noise goes on from 10.30 pm to 11.45 pm
- At 11.45 pm Mrs Fenn hears the patio doors open and the noise stops

If the above wasn't the McCanns entering 5A having just left tapas who was it and what caused the crying and calling Daddy to stop? 

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

I agree it is teamwork.  Many pairs of eyes from different backgrounds.  Also we are not under any pressure or expectation.  Plus we have not been trained to look at something in a particular way which can help imo in the more unusual cases.

But I have not just looked at this case so I bring knowledge from other cases which helps.  Eg I know the LCN DNA tests are meaningless based on the research I did on Bamber.  I know wit stats and timelines are only ever approx and will always show benign inconsistencies based on Bamber, Essex Boys and Jill Dando/Barry George.  I know efits and witness sightings are unreliable based on Jill Dando/Barry George.

How do you explain to yourself the eleven alerts by Eddie and Keela?