27 Times...

[jassi]

But to make progress you have to use reasonable and sensible inferences. 

You say you obviously don't know why they would say they used these doors it they didn't and that's just it there's no reasonable explanation to explain why they would say this if it wasn't true.  Even if one takes the position they were directly involved in MM's death how does having the patio doors unlocked assist?

Agree Mrs Fenn did not see the McCanns arrive but I think its reasonable to draw a sensible inference:

- Mrs Fenn hears what she thinks is MM crying and calling Daddy, Daddy which gets louder and more expressive
- This noise goes on from 10.30 pm to 11.45 pm
- At 11.45 pm Mrs Fenn hears the patio doors open and the noise stops

If the above wasn't the McCanns entering 5A having just left tapas who was it and what caused the crying and calling Daddy to stop?

For their claim of abduction to work, the patio door has to be left open. Part of the staging.
If it were left open only on Thursday, this would look odd, so the door needs to be left unlocked every night, so as to establish the routine - even if it wasn't.

IMO

[Holly Goodhead]

For their claim of abduction to work, the patio door has to be left open. Part of the staging.
If it were left open only on Thursday, this would look odd, so the door needs to be left unlocked every night, so as to establish the routine.

IMO

But why does it have to be abduction from 5A and not outside?  I just made a post on the other thread; if they wanted to stage an abduction then why not dispose of a pair of MM's footwear and KM/GM could say they found patio doors slightly open along with child gate and gate leading to road?

If the patio door was 'staged' why also 'stage' the bedroom shutter and window?

I think most would agree Mrs Fenn is a reliable and independent witness and it is sensible imo to infer from her wit stat the patio doors were unlocked when McCanns returned from tapas on 1st May.

[jassi]

But why does it have to be abduction from 5A and not outside?  I just made a post on the other thread; if they wanted to stage an abduction then why not dispose of a pair of MM's footwear and KM/GM could say they found patio doors slightly open along with child gate and gate leading to road?

If the patio door was 'staged' why also 'stage' the bedroom shutter and window?

I think most would agree Mrs Fenn is a reliable and independent witness and it is sensible imo to infer from her wit stat the patio doors were unlocked when McCanns returned from tapas on 1st May.

An alternative scenario is that Gerry opened the front door with key and then opened patio door to let Kate in, as he done during the day.


Unlike you, I don't believe there was a stranger  abduction.

[Holly Goodhead]

An alternative scenario is that Gerry opened the front door with key and then opened patio door to let Kate in, as he done during the day.


Unlike you, I don't believe there was a stranger  abduction.

But a) Mrs Fenn didn't hear the front door open and b) why would GM at 11.45pm open the front door to enter 5A only to then open the patio door to let KM in? 

 

[jassi]

But a) Mrs Fenn didn't hear the front door open and b) why would GM at 11.45pm open the front door to enter 5A only to then open the patio door to let KM in?

Correction - she didn't mention it. You don't know what she heard.

[Holly Goodhead]

Correction - she didn't mention it. You don't know what she heard.

Ok well if she did hear the front door open or close she did not mention this to investigators.

[jassi]

Ok well if she did hear the front door open or close she did not mention this to investigators.

Exactly

Neither did she mention the door opening & closing several times on the Tuesday, so perhaps your closure count needs to be amended.

[Holly Goodhead]

Exactly

But why in your opinion do you think the McCanns returned from tapas on 1st May with one entering via the front door and the other via the patio doors?

[Holly Goodhead]

How do you explain to yourself the eleven alerts by Eddie and Keela?

This had nothing to do with the thread title. 

I've already explained my position re the dogs on the relevant threads.

[Holly Goodhead]

Exactly

Neither did she mention the door opening & closing several times on the Tuesday, so perhaps your closure count needs to be amended.

But as you've already said the fact she didn't mention something doesn't mean she didn't hear it:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10900.msg546582#msg546582

[jassi]

But as you've already said the fact she didn't mention something doesn't mean she didn't hear it:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10900.msg546582#msg546582

Either way, you shouldn't count events you don't know about for sure - IMO

[Holly Goodhead]

Either way, you shouldn't count events you don't know about for sure - IMO

But there are very few things in life we know about for sure.  Even in the criminal courts the accused is found 'not guilty' or 'guilty beyond reasonable doubt'.  There's nothing for sure about it.  If there was we would not have miscarriages of justice.

I am not emotionally invested in this case.  I can empathise with the McCanns over their plight because I believe in all probability MM was abducted from 5A but tbh I struggle to warm to them.  I hate the BS about keeping an eye on 5A from the tapas and I hate their ill thought out campaign which imo has done more harm than good. 

[jassi]

But there are very few things in life we know about for sure.  Even in the criminal courts the accused is found 'not guilty' or 'guilty beyond reasonable doubt'.  There's nothing for sure about it.  If there was we would not have miscarriages of justice.

I am not emotionally invested in this case.  I can empathise with the McCanns over their plight because I believe in all probability MM was abducted from 5A but tbh I struggle to warm to them.  I hate the BS about keeping an eye on 5A from the tapas and I hate their ill thought out campaign which imo has done more harm than good.

They went out each evening leaving their 3 children unattended. That's for sure

They lost Madeleine due to their poor child care arrangements. That's for sure

They are a pair of selfish a*seholes. That's for sure - oh, sorry that's just an opinion

[Holly Goodhead]

They went out each evening leaving their 3 children unattended. That's for sure

They lost Madeleine due to their poor child care arrangements. That's for sure

They are a pair of selfish a*seholes. That's for sure - oh, sorry that's just an opinion

Yeah I kinda agree with that but it doesn't make them directly responsible for MM's disappearance. 

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

But why in your opinion do you think the McCanns returned from tapas on 1st May with one entering via the front door and the other via the patio doors?

Same reason they did it any other time, perhaps?