The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm

[icabodcrane]

Mrs B

I think the purpose of this thread is to determine whether anyone other  than the McCann's friends,  place Gerry at the table when the Smiths made their sighting

Why do you ignore the much more relevant questions?

If Gerry was absent from the table, who noticed his absence?

Who looked for him?

Where was he when found?

Who found him?

Under what circumstances?

No independent witness places Gerry at the table when the Smiths made their sighting

That is what this thread is about  ...  whether anyone unequivically places him  there, at the table

No-one does

[ferryman]

Mrs B

I think the purpose of this thread is to determine whether anyone other  than the McCann's friends,  place Gerry at the table when the Smiths made their sighting

Why do you ignore the much more relevant questions?

If Gerry was absent from the table, who noticed his absence?

Who looked for him?

Where was he when found?

Who found him?

Under what circumstances?

No independent witness places Gerry at the table when the Smiths made their sighting

That is what this thread is about  ...  whether anyone unequivically places him  there, at the table

No-one does

Leaving aside that I dispute your definition of "independent", what is your objection to my questions, lack of comment on in the files lending force to the suggestion that at the time of Kate's alert, Gerry was in the restaurant (just as Joao Carlos concluded in the final PJ report).

[Carana]

In my very humble opinion, many of the so-called discrepancies (many of which are apparent in the staff statements) should have been the subject of more thorough interviews very early on. Typing up standard statements to file was simply not enough. Opportunities were lost.

[icabodcrane]

Mrs B

I think the purpose of this thread is to determine whether anyone other  than the McCann's friends,  place Gerry at the table when the Smiths made their sighting

Why do you ignore the much more relevant questions?

If Gerry was absent from the table, who noticed his absence?

Who looked for him?

Where was he when found?

Who found him?

Under what circumstances?

No independent witness places Gerry at the table when the Smiths made their sighting

That is what this thread is about  ...  whether anyone unequivically places him  there, at the table

No-one does

Leaving aside that I dispute your definition of "independent", what is your objection to my questions, lack of comment on in the files lending force to the suggestion that at the time of Kate's alert, Gerry was in the restaurant (just as Joao Carlos concluded in the final PJ report).

OK,  you want to know if there is a witness who said Gerry McCann was NOT at the table when the Smiths made their sighting  ?

Well yes, there was

Martin Smith,  himself,  places Gerry away from the table at that point ( with 60%/80%  certainty )

[John]

Draft #6

[John]

As part of the group of nine Gerry's absence would most certainly have been noticed by everyone had he not been there.  Three men missing from the table at the same time was a non starter.

The independent witnesses (waiters) don't need to actually say that he was there for them to infer it.

[ferryman]

Martin Smith,  himself,  places Gerry away from the table at that point ( with 60%/80%  certainty )

I've raised the point before and I raise it again.

Would Smith say the same now?

[AnneGuedes]

Ok, John, but Icabodcrane is very right.
Unfortunately we don't know at what time the alert was made. And we know that none of the TP7 saw the shutters lifted, i.e none of them entered in the flat behind the McCanns, which sounds perfectly normal.

[AnneGuedes]

Martin Smith,  himself,  places Gerry away from the table at that point ( with 60%/80%  certainty )

I've raised the point before and I raise it again.

Would Smith say the same now?

Poor Martin Smith, I hope he has no nightmare. I don't think I would have had the courage he had (whether he was right or not).

[Mrs. B]

Mrs B

I think the purpose of this thread is to determine whether anyone other  than the McCann's friends,  place Gerry at the table when the Smiths made their sighting

Why do you ignore the much more relevant questions?

If Gerry was absent from the table, who noticed his absence?

Who looked for him?

Where was he when found?

Who found him?

Under what circumstances?

No independent witness places Gerry at the table when the Smiths made their sighting

That is what this thread is about  ...  whether anyone unequivically places him  there, at the table

No-one does

I fail to see the relevance here. WHY are we supposed to dismiss every single person who were sitting at the same table as Gerry McCann? All of them were NOT close friends or family. There is absolutely no fathomable reason as to why anyone of them would be giving false statements to police as to WHO were at their table at  given times and nobody has any reason to suspect they did. (Or if you do, please feel free to elaborate as to what evidence you can provide that points to that)

Who on earth would expect waiters or other diners to pay so much attention to a group of people that they would be able to pin point exactly who was sitting down, leaving or returning at every moment of the evening? I'm sure no investigative police force would, so why should we?

Apart from that, we're dealing with physical possibilities here, you can't be at one place at a particular time & then magically appear in another place a few minutes afterwards and there are several people who reported seeing Gerry McCann in or around the the OC shortly after it was discovered that Madeleine had gone missing.

Just my opinion, of course.

[AnneGuedes]

I fail to see the relevance here. WHY are we supposed to dismiss every single person who were sitting at the same table as Gerry McCann? All of them were NOT close friends or family. There is absolutely no fathomable reason as to why anyone of them would be giving false statements to police as to WHO were at their table at  given times and nobody has any reason to suspect they did. (Or if you do, please feel free to elaborate as to what evidence you can provide that points to that)

Who on earth would expect waiters or other diners to pay so much attention to a group of people that they would be able to pin point exactly who was sitting down, leaving or returning at every moment of the evening? I'm sure no investigative police force would, so why should we?

Apart from that, we're dealing with physical possibilities here, you can't be at one place at a particular time & then magically appear in another place a few minutes afterwards and there are several people who reported seeing Gerry McCann in or around the the OC shortly after it was discovered that Madeleine had gone missing.

Just my opinion, of course.

Mrs B., isn't the challenge to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann ?
So what are you talking about ?
We don't know at what time the alert was launched, we don't or rather I don't understand why the police wasn't immediately alerted, since they said the shutters and the window were open.
A decent man, who has his peace of mind to lose, resolves telling the gardai that the man he crossed could be Gerald McCann. Is there malice in this ?
And you insist on saying that "we can't expect of waiters to keep an eye" on the (btw) only group of people having diner ! 
Yes of course, they didn't know kids were left on their own, why would they snoop on these people ?

[Mrs. B]

No, it's not actually up to you, me or anyone else to "find out" what happened to Madeleine McCann. Unless of course you are the police, I know for certain that I'm not.

We don't know for certain that police was NOT called just after the alert was raised. We have conflicting statements & telephone records. None of which can be discarded.

Nobody has maligned Mr. Smith for coming forward, but at the same time, as Mr. Smith himself states, his recognition of who he saw is neither backed up by the majority of the party in his company nor is it based on facial recognition. I wasn't aware that Mr. Smith was in danger of losing his "peace of mind" - I'm not a personal friend of Mr. Smith and not privy to information relating to his state of mind. I take it you must be.

[AnneGuedes]

No, it's not actually up to you, me or anyone else to "find out" what happened to Madeleine McCann. Unless of course you are the police, I know for certain that I'm not.

We don't know for certain that police was NOT called just after the alert was raised. We have conflicting statements & telephone records. None of which can be discarded.

Nobody has maligned Mr. Smith for coming forward, but at the same time, as Mr. Smith himself states, his recognition of who he saw is neither backed up by the majority of the party in his company nor is it based on facial recognition. I wasn't aware that Mr. Smith was in danger of losing his "peace of mind" - I'm not a personal friend of Mr. Smith and not privy to information relating to his state of mind. I take it you must be.

We know for certain the GNR wasn't called before 22h41. There's no register before that. Or do you doubt the PJ files ? If you do, it would be honest to say it.
We also know that a UK citizen offered her phone to call the police around 22h30 and was rejected as useless.
I don't need to know Mr Smith, I have enough imagination, Mrs B., to imagine it wasn't easy for him to share his doubt with the gardai. I think that it's not extraordinary to imagine that.

[Mrs. B]

Helder Jorge Samaio Luis, receptionist;
"He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared. That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again."

I said there are statement contradicting the OC phone records, there were mobile phones in 2007 too, where are those records? E.g. were they ever checked?

Please point to the exact location in the files where the UK citizen's offer to user her phone was rejected as "useless", I can't see it.

With respect, IMO people's "imagination" vs actual facts is a major reason why there's so much mis-information being peddled online with regard to this case.

[DCI]

Helder Jorge Samaio Luis, receptionist;
"He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared. That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again."

I said there are statement contradicting the OC phone records, there were mobile phones in 2007 too, where are those records? E.g. were they ever checked?

Please point to the exact location in the files where the UK citizen's offer to user her phone was rejected as "useless", I can't see it.

With respect, IMO people's "imagination" vs actual facts is a major reason why there's so much mis-information being peddled online with regard to this case.

Please point to the exact location in the files where the UK citizen's offer to user her phone was rejected as "useless", I can't see it.

That was Mrs Fenn, Mrs B. It wasn't rejected at all, Gerry told her the police had already been called. More lies