Is it any wonder that initial investigators arrived at the conclusions they did?

[Vertigo Swirl]

I don't know anything about the above but I think trained investigators for whatever reason(s) do get fixated on pursuing false trails eg Asst Chief Constable George Oldfield and Wearside Jack is a classic example.

It happens with miscarriages of justice too where an investigator(s) forms a theory/identifies a suspect and then dismisses anything which contradicts and will even go as far as fabricating evidence to support the theory/suspect.  I guess its part of the human condition in trying to make sense of puzzles!  Confirmation bias.

Isn’t that precisely what the PJ did thanks to Amaral’s gut feel?

[Holly Goodhead]

holly seems to think gerry was trying to hide the fact the apt was insecure....im just proving her wrong

I think he was reticent about the state of the patio door. 

Davel answer me this please.  On morning of 3rd May MM asked her parents why they hadn't come when she and SM were crying the previous night.  The McCanns say they asked MM when she cried but she moved on and the McCanns let it drop.  The McCanns say that they agreed they had to be extra vigilant with their checks as obviously they didn't want any of the children waking and crying without either of them there.  When they left for tapas at circa 8.30 pm they are precise about how they left everything eg bedroom door 10cm  ajar.  Come GM's check at circa 9 pm he states the door had moved out of position and he initially thought this was evidence that MM had been up and about.  He states upon checking and seeing MM he returned the door to its rightful position.  Upon returning to the table he does not mention this to KM and it appears is so nonchalant that he is quite happy for MO to check at 9. 30 pm who had no idea about how he should find the door.  Come circa 10 pm KM checks and she also finds the door out of position and MM disappeared. 

Internal doors do not flap around without someone or something causing them to do so.  GM does not say anything about letting in a draft or put forward any other explanation for the 'moving door' other than MM and yet despite MM's comment in the morning and despite the McCanns agreeing they needed to be extra vigilant GM does not mention to KM upon returning to the table or ask MO to check the position of the door to see if it had changed or decide to go back and check himself. 

[Mr Gray]

I think he was reticent about the state of the patio door. 

Davel answer me this please.  On morning of 3rd May MM asked her parents why they hadn't come when she and SM were crying the previous night.  The McCanns say they asked MM when she cried but she moved on and the McCanns let it drop.  The McCanns say that they agreed they had to be extra vigilant with their checks as obviously they didn't want any of the children waking and crying without either of them there.  When they left for tapas at circa 8.30 pm they are precise about how they left everything eg bedroom door 10cm  ajar.  Come GM's check at circa 9 pm he states the door had moved out of position and he initially thought this was evidence that MM had been up and about.  He states upon checking and seeing MM he returned the door to its rightful position.  Upon returning to the table he does not mention this to KM and it appears is so nonchalant that he is quite happy for MO to check at 9. 30 pm who had no idea about how he should find the door.  Come circa 10 pm KM checks and she also finds the door out of position and MM disappeared. 

Internal doors do not flap around without someone or something causing them to do so.  GM does not say anything about letting in a draft or put forward any other explanation for the 'moving door' other than MM and yet despite MM's comment in the morning and despite the McCanns agreeing they needed to be extra vigilant GM does not mention to KM upon returning to the table or ask MO to check the position of the door to see if it had changed or decide to go back and check himself.

wheres the cite i asked you for first

[Holly Goodhead]

wheres the cite i asked you for first

Cite for what?

[Vertigo Swirl]

I think he was reticent about the state of the patio door. 

Davel answer me this please.  On morning of 3rd May MM asked her parents why they hadn't come when she and SM were crying the previous night.  The McCanns say they asked MM when she cried but she moved on and the McCanns let it drop.  The McCanns say that they agreed they had to be extra vigilant with their checks as obviously they didn't want any of the children waking and crying without either of them there.  When they left for tapas at circa 8.30 pm they are precise about how they left everything eg bedroom door 10cm  ajar.  Come GM's check at circa 9 pm he states the door had moved out of position and he initially thought this was evidence that MM had been up and about.  He states upon checking and seeing MM he returned the door to its rightful position.  Upon returning to the table he does not mention this to KM and it appears is so nonchalant that he is quite happy for MO to check at 9. 30 pm who had no idea about how he should find the door.  Come circa 10 pm KM checks and she also finds the door out of position and MM disappeared. 

Internal doors do not flap around without someone or something causing them to do so.  GM does not say anything about letting in a draft or put forward any other explanation for the 'moving door' other than MM and yet despite MM's comment in the morning and despite the McCanns agreeing they needed to be extra vigilant GM does not mention to KM upon returning to the table or ask MO to check the position of the door to see if it had changed or decide to go back and check himself.

So what?  After his check he spent several minutes chatting with Jes, it was not uppermost in his mind and as he saw his children fast asleep in their beds what was to tell? 

[Holly Goodhead]

Isn’t that precisely what the PJ did thanks to Amaral’s gut feel?

The thread is about whether investigators were misled in the early hours/days.  Of course if witnesses are reticent about coming forward with info and/or provide inconsistent and contradictory info then yes an investigation can go off in the wrong direction. 

[G-Unit]

Is it any wonder that just as you and others feel it necessary to remind yourselves of what you think are the McCann shortcomings that to maintain a balance it is necessary to be reminded that Amaral carries quite a bit of baggage along with him too.

Don't you see any difference between those who were the last people to see a child before it disappeared off the face of the planet and one of the policemen who investigated that disappearance? A policeman, moreover, who wasn't in charge of the investigation, despite people trying to insist for 12 years that he was.

[Holly Goodhead]

So what?  After his check he spent several minutes chatting with Jes, it was not uppermost in his mind and as he saw his children fast asleep in their beds what was to tell?

So what?  MM specifically asked her parents at breakfast why they hadn't come when she and Sean were crying the previous night.  McCanns have a definite routine at night with the children which included leaving the door ajar 10 cm to allow a glimmer of light in.  GM checks finds door half-open.  His only explanation for this is MM up and about but finding her in her bed (or so he tells us) he returns the door to its rightful position but doesn't say to KM 'I don't want to alarm you but I think MM may have been up and about as the door was half open, she's in her bed asleep now.  I'll go back and check all is ok again shortly'. 

[Mr Gray]

The thread is about whether investigators were misled in the early hours/days.  Of course if witnesses are reticent about coming forward with info and/or provide inconsistent and contradictory info then yes an investigation can go off in the wrong direction.

Gerry said on the 4th the patio doors were unlocked

[Vertigo Swirl]

So what?  MM specifically asked her parents at breakfast why they hadn't come when she and Sean were crying the previous night.  McCanns have a definite routine at night with the children which included leaving the door ajar 10 cm to allow a glimmer of light in.  GM checks finds door half-open.  His only explanation for this is MM up and about but finding her in her bed (or so he tells us) he returns the door to its rightful position but doesn't say to KM 'I don't want to alarm you but I think MM may have been up and about as the door was half open, she's in her bed asleep now.  I'll go back and check all is ok again shortly'.

I think you’re making something out of nothing to fit your prejudiced narrative, frankly.  Gerry observed that his children were safe and asleep, what was the cause for alarm?  Do you think he should have been on high alert for an abductor at that stage?

[Miss Taken Identity]

So what?  MM specifically asked her parents at breakfast why they hadn't come when she and Sean were crying the previous night.  McCanns have a definite routine at night with the children which included leaving the door ajar 10 cm to allow a glimmer of light in.  GM checks finds door half-open.  His only explanation for this is MM up and about but finding her in her bed (or so he tells us) he returns the door to its rightful position but doesn't say to KM 'I don't want to alarm you but I think MM may have been up and about as the door was half open, she's in her bed asleep now.  I'll go back and check all is ok again shortly'.

Sometimes being pedant assists those who can't, don't understand plain speaking.

GM notices the door has moved- he may suspect MBM was awake at some point, and may have wandered to toilet,parents room.where ever, he check to see his daughter on top of the bed exactly like he left her as it was a warm evening. he moved the door back to its original position. no more to be said?  well I think so.

1. when he saw his daughter as he left her- who moved the door?
2. If he thought his daughter was up and wandering around - she would have been faced with the same plight as the previous night- all three of them alone and no parents around.
3. would she just climb back into bed to the same position, as the temperature is an issue here, or go back under the covers (where her mother claims she left her all snuggled in because it was cold)
4. OR would she go out via the patio door to look for her parents and disappear?

The devil is in the detail.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think you’re making something out of nothing to fit your prejudiced narrative, frankly.  Gerry observed that his children were safe and asleep, what was the cause for alarm?  Do you think he should have been on high alert for an abductor at that stage?

No I don't think he should have been on high alert for an abductor at that stage just one or more of his children who might have woken up and become upset that their parents were not around as MM claimed happened the previous evening.  The fact GM claims the door had moved and he thought MM might have been up and about should have been enough for him to at least to discuss with KM when he returned to the table and certainly for either himself or KM to check at 9.30 pm not leave it to MO who had no idea about the door.

[Holly Goodhead]

Sometimes being pedant assists those who can't, don't understand plain speaking.

GM notices the door has moved- he may suspect MBM was awake at some point, and may have wandered to toilet,parents room.where ever, he check to see his daughter on top of the bed exactly like he left her as it was a warm evening. he moved the door back to its original position. no more to be said?  well I think so.

1. when he saw his daughter as he left her- who moved the door?
2. If he thought his daughter was up and wandering around - she would have been faced with the same plight as the previous night- all three of them alone and no parents around.
3. would she just climb back into bed to the same position, as the temperature is an issue here, or go back under the covers (where her mother claims she left her all snuggled in because it was cold)
4. OR would she go out via the patio door to look for her parents and disappear?

The devil is in the detail.

It certainly is. 

I tend to think he did not notice the door had changed and/or physically checked the children.  He said he did because it would look awful if he said 'I've no idea if any of the children were missing at 9.30 pm as I didn't actually look in on them and I've no idea whether or not the window was open/shutter raised'. 

[Vertigo Swirl]

No I don't think he should have been on high alert for an abductor at that stage just one or more of his children who might have woken up and become upset that their parents were not around as MM claimed happened the previous evening.  The fact GM claims the door had moved and he thought MM might have been up and about should have been enough for him to at least to discuss with KM when he returned to the table and certainly for either himself or KM to check at 9.30 pm not leave it to MO who had no idea about the door.

I think this is a totally unwarranted criticism IMO, as so many of them are.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Sometimes being pedant assists those who can't, don't understand plain speaking.

GM notices the door has moved- he may suspect MBM was awake at some point, and may have wandered to toilet,parents room.where ever, he check to see his daughter on top of the bed exactly like he left her as it was a warm evening. he moved the door back to its original position. no more to be said?  well I think so.

1. when he saw his daughter as he left her- who moved the door?
2. If he thought his daughter was up and wandering around - she would have been faced with the same plight as the previous night- all three of them alone and no parents around.
3. would she just climb back into bed to the same position, as the temperature is an issue here, or go back under the covers (where her mother claims she left her all snuggled in because it was cold)
4. OR would she go out via the patio door to look for her parents and disappear?

The devil is in the detail.

She was asleep, why would Gerry need to consider all these possibilities?