Is it any wonder that initial investigators arrived at the conclusions they did?

[Holly Goodhead]

I've looked, at lots if other cases.. Mistakes are made but at least these mistakes usually are admitted.
The investigation in this case went in the wrong direction because the police thought they had proof Maddie died in the apartment.. They were wrong

That's not much consolation to those who have spent years behind bars for crimes they did not commit and in some cases the perps free to commit other crimes. 

And in many cases the police do not readily admit to their mistakes: Stephen Lawrence and Hillsborough are classic examples.

[Brietta]

There has been a consistent campaign to convince people that the PJ were the devil's spawn. In my opinion they're no worse than any other police force. They assessed the evidence and listened to and observed the witnesses and reached a conclusion. Some people are convinced that the McCanns did no wrong, but they failed to convince others just as they failed to convince the PJ.

We are not discussing the Policia Juiciaria as an organisation.  We are discussing the initial investigation under the leadership of Goncalo Amaral.  It is important to stress that differential.

[Holly Goodhead]

We are not discussing the Policia Juiciaria as an organisation.  We are discussing the initial investigation under the leadership of Goncalo Amaral.  It is important to stress that differential.

What was the chain of command? 

[Mr Gray]

That's not much consolation to those who have spent years behind bars for crimes they did not commit and in some cases the perps free to commit other crimes. 

And in many cases the police do not readily admit to their mistakes: Stephen Lawrence and Hillsborough are classic examples.

I'm pointing out police incompetence within the initial investigation.. Perhaps posters here should make a, reasoned response instead of trying to excuse it... As you appear to be doing

[Brietta]

What was the chain of command?

What was the chain of command when Rebelo took over as coordinator after Amaral was sacked ?

[Holly Goodhead]

Is it any wonder that initial investigators arrived at the conclusions they did?

I don't think it is in the least surprising the initial investigators made such a pig's ear of the investigation into Madeleine's investigation.

They were hardly 'Portugal's finest' were they?

Which of the senior officers who investigated Joana Cipriano's disappearance then followed by Madeleine McCann's disappearance a couple of years later both from villages in close proximity didn't end up with criminal convictions some of which were as serious as those possessed by the criminals they were paid to pursue.

None more so than the guy Amaral cosied up to on many's the chat show couch as they pursued their new careers as pundits making money out of the little girl they let down so very badly ... Paulo Cristovao.  Cristivao went out of his way to associate himself with Madeleine by writing one of the first books about her disappearance which fingered her parents in her disappearance.

He left no stone unturned as he used his journalistic presence to vilify her parents in the pages of the Portuguese press and as already pointed out continued to play his TV part alongside Amaral to try to convince the Portuguese public of Madeleine's death.

Why would these convicted criminals do that?  Whatever ... with such individuals in charge of and orchestrating an investigation into the case of a missing child for which they had neither experience or expertise in my opinion it was inevitable they followed entirely the wrong tack in reaching the conclusions they did.

After Amaral was sacked from the case his successor Rebelo conducted an entirely different process:  he cleaned out much of the dross of Amaral's personnel by reducing their number and brought in as many experts in their field as was necessary for a missing child investigation.  I don't know if a team like that had been there from the outset it would have made any difference to the final outcome as far as Madeleine was concerned, but I have absolutely no doubt that their professionalism would have made a difference to the way the investigation was conducted.

One of the first differences would have been that the media propaganda war waged against Madeleine's parents just would have been very unlikely to have happened and the lies which have become factoids for over twelve years wouldn't have been allowed to happen.

I don't believe we have sufficient data to make a jusgement about how good, bad or indifferent PJ are compared with other police forces across the globe.  Just focusing on this case and JC doesn't assist as the sample is too small.

The following might provide some idea and Portugal doesn't even feature:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases

[Holly Goodhead]

What was the chain of command when Rebelo took over as coordinator after Amaral was sacked ?

At all stages of the investigation.

[Holly Goodhead]

I'm pointing out police incompetence within the initial investigation.. Perhaps posters here should make a, reasoned response instead of trying to excuse it... As you appear to be doing

I would suggest miscarriages of justice, of which the UK has many, are the result of a poor initial police investigation.

[Mr Gray]

I would suggest miscarriages of justice, of which the UK has many, are the result of a poor initial police investigation.

They most certainly are... But again you are deflecting by talking about the UK rather than the Portuguese case.
How often are there miscarriages of justice in Portugal.. We don't know

A Portuguese poster told us proudly there are no miscarriages if justice in Portugal.. They simply don't admit ti them

[Holly Goodhead]

They most certainly are... But again you are deflecting by talking about the UK rather than the Portuguese case.
How often are there miscarriages of justice in Portugal.. We don't know

A Portuguese poster told us proudly there are no miscarriages if justice in Portugal.. They simply don't admit ti them

No I am not deflecting.  I've given a few examples of MoJ's from across the globe: Italy, Oz, NZ and UK. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases

I don't understand the constant PJ bashing. 

UK schoolgirl Caroline Dickinson was raped and murdered in her bed during a school trip to France.  The perp was eventually apprehended by US law enforcement some 5 years later. 

[Brietta]

I don't believe we have sufficient data to make a jusgement about how good, bad or indifferent PJ are compared with other police forces across the globe.  Just focusing on this case and JC doesn't assist as the sample is too small.

The following might provide some idea and Portugal doesn't even feature:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases

The thread topic concerns the initial investigators and the way in which they conducted Madeleine's case;  is there any valid reason why you wish to deflect from that.

[Mr Gray]

No I am not deflecting.  I've given a few examples of MoJ's from across the globe: Italy, Oz, NZ and UK. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases

I don't understand the constant PJ bashing. 

UK schoolgirl Caroline Dickinson was raped and murdered in her bed during a school trip to France.  The perp was eventually apprehended by US law enforcement some 5 years later.

You might not understand it... That doesn't mean it isn't valid.
There was a meeting early on with the pj and grime where the pj were told the alerts themselves were not evidence.
Amaral and his team refused to accept this and took the investigation in the wrong direction

[Holly Goodhead]

The thread topic concerns the initial investigators and the way in which they conducted Madeleine's case;  is there any valid reason why you wish to deflect from that.

The thread topic concerns the initial investigation and whether or not witnesses assisted, hindered or had no impact on the investigation.

I don't see it as deflection.  I'm simply putting the PJ investigation into the disappearance of MM into context with how other investigations have panned out.   

[Holly Goodhead]

You might not understand it... That doesn't mean it isn't valid.
There was a meeting early on with the pj and grime where the pj were told the alerts themselves were not evidence.
Amaral and his team refused to accept this and took the investigation in the wrong direction

But at least it didn't result in a wrongful conviction!  Others have suffered far worse fates than the McCanns. 

[G-Unit]

No I am not deflecting.  I've given a few examples of MoJ's from across the globe: Italy, Oz, NZ and UK. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases

I don't understand the constant PJ bashing. 

UK schoolgirl Caroline Dickinson was raped and murdered in her bed during a school trip to France.  The perp was eventually apprehended by US law enforcement some 5 years later.

The bashing began almost immediately, instigated by the McCanns, their friends and family. It was repeated by the media and those who supported the McCanns ad infinitum. In my opinion it was employed because some people think attacking is the best form of defence.

Using it, of course, leads some to see it as a defensive ploy, rather than a sincere criticism. When I recieve personal attacks on forums I see it as a sign that the people doing it are trying to discredit me in hopes of discrediting what I say. I assume that's because they have no sensible answers to what I said.