Author Topic: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?  (Read 18513 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2020, 10:12:24 PM »
Answer - no ( I didn't know the answer to the question when I asked it).

STU-100
( Scent Transfer Unit )

What is the STU-100 ? The Scent Transfer Unit (STU-100) was specifically designed for Forensic Specialists, Investigators, Evidence Response Teams, Identification Departments and Scent Dog Handlers. The Scent Transfer Unit allows law enforcement to collect evidence from any item without destroying fingerprints on the item, collect trace evidence at a crime scene without contamination, collect scent evidence from hard to access places not accessible to a search dog and gives law enforcement a scent pad to store in scent banks for future use on repeat offenders.

The STU-100 was designed and built to assist law enforcement with the collection of scent and trace evidence. It provides a method of preserving evidence for extended periods of time because scent is evidence. The STU-100 requires common sense, good judgement, a sound working knowledge of scent and what it takes to protect it from contamination. Properly handled and operated, the STU-100 can produce unbelievable results.

History of the STU100
Very first Scent Transfer Unit --- The Scent machine"The Scent Machine" In the late 80'S I tried using a vacuum process to collect the scent into a sterile gauze pad that I could move around and better yet, I could collect the scent and keep it for long periods of time. A number of 110 models were tested. I called them "Scent Transfer Machines" however as with most first inventions they were big, heavy, cumbersome and while they did the job well they were difficult to handle.

Larry Harris"STU100" This is Larry Harris, Bill Tolhurst's Partner with his prototype version of the STU.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/bigT/STU100.html

Does anyone know if the "STU100" ever got beyond the prototype stage?  An internet search has turned up nothing more about it beyond the association with Mr Grime in the seventies.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline misty

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2020, 10:29:45 PM »
Does anyone know if the "STU100" ever got beyond the prototype stage?  An internet search has turned up nothing more about it beyond the association with Mr Grime in the seventies.
It was being used in research in 2011.
http://europepmc.org/article/med/21367548

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2020, 10:31:32 PM »
Does anyone know if the "STU100" ever got beyond the prototype stage?  An internet search has turned up nothing more about it beyond the association with Mr Grime in the seventies.

I hadn't heard of it and it hasn't featured in any of the other cases I've looked at.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16882219/
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2020, 10:38:24 PM »
IMO it appears Grime emphasised the use of STU-100 as evidence that Eddie was trained to alert to remnant human cadaver scent when no body was in situ. Other UK cadaver dogs, which could only be trained on decomposing pig remains, had not received this enhancement during their training ergo, on paper, Eddie had superior capabilities to standard UK dogs.
Mark Harrison did recommend in his report that both the area around the OC creche should be examined by Eddie & Keela and a team of VRD's should be deployed on the land to the east of Luz. Neither of those deployments took place, for reasons unknown.

With regards to residual scent from human cadavers & the difficulties involved in getting a jury to accept alerts without bodies as an accepted science, the Casey Anthony trial is an excellent example of just how much more research is still required. There is a good white paper here https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1042&context=scitech    which is lengthy but well worth a read.
There are also links to further research papers here regarding remote collection of scents.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51741220_Creation_of_training_aids_for_human_remains_detection_canines_utilizing_a_non-contact_dynamic_airflow_volatile_concentration_technique

You may be right, this thread is more about opinions that the other one I started but as I stated above the wording of Mr Grimes statement to me suggests the enhancement was more the the no contact than the human remains. When I read that bit it seams clear to me as he mentions the human remains in a previous sentence. But there is no guarantee my opinion is more correct than yours.

Offline misty

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2020, 11:20:11 PM »
You may be right, this thread is more about opinions that the other one I started but as I stated above the wording of Mr Grimes statement to me suggests the enhancement was more the the no contact than the human remains. When I read that bit it seams clear to me as he mentions the human remains in a previous sentence. But there is no guarantee my opinion is more correct than yours.

IMO if you look at Harrison's report to the PJ dated 23/7/07, you can understand why Eddie & Keela were the only dog team who could have gone to Luz to carry out the recommended searches. Eddie was the only dog who'd reportedly received any training on actual human residual cadaver scent & Keela was a unique CSI  blood dog, No other UK dog team fulfilled the search requirement criteria, irrespective of Eddie & Keela's unconfirmed competence in their disciplines. Harrison's conflict of interest between his NPIA position & his role in Keela's training was never mentioned.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

*snipped*
Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.

In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.

Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2020, 11:32:10 PM »
IMO if you look at Harrison's report to the PJ dated 23/7/07, you can understand why Eddie & Keela were the only dog team who could have gone to Luz to carry out the recommended searches. Eddie was the only dog who'd reportedly received any training on actual human residual cadaver scent & Keela was a unique CSI  blood dog, No other UK dog team fulfilled the search requirement criteria, irrespective of Eddie & Keela's unconfirmed competence in their disciplines. Harrison's conflict of interest between his NPIA position & his role in Keela's training was never mentioned.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

*snipped*
Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.

In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.

Misty, I respect your opinion, its just as plausible as mine but for me I don't see the enhancement when US dogs trained on humans would alert to humans and pigs and UK dogs trained on pigs would also react to humans and pigs.  I guess the only people who know are Martin Grime and Mark Harrison.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 01:34:26 AM by Brietta »

Offline misty

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2020, 11:40:39 PM »
Do you have a cite from an independent source confirming US cadaver dogs alert to pig remains? AFAIK their training teaches them to ignore all non-human remains.

Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2020, 11:51:12 PM »
Do you have a cite from an independent source confirming US cadaver dogs alert to pig remains? AFAIK their training teaches them to ignore all non-human remains.

Its in Martin Grime's personal profile

"These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced
pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Offline misty

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2020, 11:55:02 PM »
Its in Martin Grime's personal profile

"These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced
pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium."

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

That's not an independent source.....

Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2020, 11:56:15 PM »
That's not an independent source.....

How so?

Offline misty

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2020, 12:02:15 AM »
How so?

Because what Grime did was written by Grime himself, with no independent corroboration.
If Grime's dog was being trained in US on human cadavers, when did the trainee become the trainer introducing pigs?

Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2020, 12:06:06 AM »
Because what Grime did was written by Grime himself, with no independent corroboration.
If Grime's dog was being trained in US on human cadavers, when did the trainee become the trainer introducing pigs?

 So did he make it up? In the end its about opinions, your very welcome to yours and hopefully I can have mine.

Offline misty

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2020, 12:11:23 AM »
So did he make it up? In the end its about opinions, your very welcome to yours and hopefully I can have mine.

I don't if he made it up, hence my request for an independent source verifying US cadaver dogs trained only on human remains would alert to pig remains. It would be helpful to verify this as it would solve the mystery of why a US cadaver dog found a living human in a disused pig pen.

Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2020, 12:36:33 AM »
I don't if he made it up, hence my request for an independent source verifying US cadaver dogs trained only on human remains would alert to pig remains. It would be helpful to verify this as it would solve the mystery of why a US cadaver dog found a living human in a disused pig pen.

I really don't fancy trawling the internet for the data you want, if you don't like the Martin Grime cite please disregard my opinion, I wont be offended.  I am open to education on the matter. I promise you my views are not dogmatic and will take any info that is offered in the spirit is given.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was Eddie The perfect Dog for the role ?
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2020, 12:45:27 AM »
Cadaver dogs. Also known as human remains detection dogs,  have been trained to smell death. Specifically, the dogs are trained to smell decomposition, which means they can locate body parts, tissue, blood, and bone
A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonized human corpse.

https://coronertalk.com/hrd-dogs

Scientists Identify Gases Unique To Rotting Pigs And Human Bodies

After we die, our rotting bodies release specific types of gases into the environment. When a body goes missing, dogs can sniff for these gases to track it down. But forensic scientists are still trying to nail down the exact “smell of death” that is unique to humans. Now, a team in Belgium has identified seven compounds that only pigs and people produce late into decomposition.

When a body first begins to decompose, enzymes dissolve the cells from within. Next comes bloating and putrefaction, giving the corpse a greenish tinge. Active decay starts when the skin breaks and the corpse begins to liquefy. Soon, only shreds of flesh cling to the body. By the end, only hair and bones are left. Figuring out which chemicals our bodies release at these different stages would also allow cadaver dogs to be trained to find bodies at specific points in their decay.

In the new study, scientists examined a menagerie of remains from six humans and 26 animals that included pigs and other mammals, fish, frogs, turtles, and various birds. The team sampled the gases surrounding the remains at nine and 12 months of decomposition.

Previously, the scientists had investigated the corpses at six months of decomposition, and came up with eight compounds only released by human and pig bodies. The new work confirmed that seven of them are still hanging around later in decomposition.

"This means that these 7 human and pig specific markers can be used in the development of training aids for cadaver dogs during the whole decomposition process," wrote the authors, who published the findings on June 2 in the journal Forensic Science International. The other compound, diethyl disulfide, could be used to detect bodies at the beginning of decomposition.

When the team sampled bodies after six months, the bodies had already passed into advanced decay (the bits of flesh stage). After 12 months, the corpses had not yet dried out, so it’s not yet certain whether bodies still release these compounds very late in decomposition. The remains also stayed tucked in glass jars, so scientists will have to investigate whether changes in moisture or temperature that occur out in the open influence which chemicals are released.

Currently, cadaver dogs are trained on the stench of compounds such as cadaverine and putrescine. But dogs sometimes fail to pick up on real body parts, indicating that these training scents do not capture the full complexity of the real decomposition odor.

"A human specific marker can be used to train cadaver dogs more efficiently and therefore win time to locate a body," the authors wrote in their previous report. "Moreover, when a human specific marker is found, it might be possible to develop a portable device that is sensitive enough to locate human remains."

https://www.popsci.com/scientists-id-gases-unique-to-rotting-pig-and-human-bodies/

« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 12:51:57 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.