Could Sheila Caffell have defeated Nevill Bamber?

[Caroline]

G-Unit, now you’ve been shown evidence that Jeremy Bamber left his wetsuit in his LOCKED bedroom at WHF after killing all his family, you’ve gone strangely quiet. I notice you do that when irrefutable evidence is shown...

The police found his wetsuit in his old bedroom at WHF weeks later, when they realised he was the murderer

Julie told the police that Jeremy always kept his wetsuit at Head Street, and proof of that is his flippers and snorkel were at Head Street. Why would he separate them? There’s simply no reason to. He took his wetsuit to WHF because he knew he’d easily be able to wash away any blood that may have backfired onto him. He didn’t take his flippers & snorkel as they’d have been a hindrance

You should ask yourself why he’d take his wetsuit to WHF for no reason whatsoever.

I did read (I’m trying to find it) that he mentioned to Julie after dismissing burning WHF down, that shooting them all would be “good”. He mentioned the “hitman” would need to wear something like a wetsuit so his clothes weren’t contaminated.

It’s very telling that just TWO days after Jeremy was buckling at the knees & stricken with grief at his parents’ and Sheila’s funeral, and the day before the twins funeral, he made a marvellous recovery and took up the invitation to go windsurfing at Pevensey Bay with Julie and her friends, the Bishops — whose family lived down there

They left Head Street at 10:30am travelling in two cars

Lo and behold, when they all got to the beach Jeremy exclaimed “I’ve forgotten my wetsuit!”

That’s akin to walking to the ski slopes, standing by the lift, then saying “Whoops, I’ve forgotten my skis!”

In the event, Andy Bishop was able to lend him one of his which he kept at his parents’ home in Pevensey...

Of course, the REAL reason Jeremy couldn’t conjure up a wetsuit at Goldhanger was that he knew it was at WHF where he’d left it after he’d murdered everyone, and could hardly be seen going into the farmhouse to pick it up as it would have looked so suspicious — especially as Julie knew he always kept it at Goldhanger.

Something that I. find VERY suspicious is that about a week after the murders, he bundled ALL his recently deceased parents clothes onto a trailer and burned the lot in the farm fire pit. Not really the action of a grieving some but makes you wonder what else he might have burned at the same time!

[Caroline]

I've seen no such evidence, sorry. I've been repeatedly told it exists but it hasn't been produced afaik.

I posted the link from CAL's book, the very book that you have been using to back up your own claims. The wetsuit was found in his wardrobe - that's a fact!

[G-Unit]

I posted the link from CAL's book, the very book that you have been using to back up your own claims. The wetsuit was found in his wardrobe - that's a fact!

CAL's book says 'in his bedroom', not 'in his wardrobe' but she doesn't say where the information came from.

[Holly Goodhead]

To get back to the thread title for a moment, I personally cannot see any circumstances in which Sheila could have overcome Nevill Bamber even after the initial gunshots. Nevill could have disabled Sheila with one arm and a single strategic blow. Whoever fought with Nevill over the kitchen table was a strong individual and not a petite young woman imo.

The gsw's NB sustained initially upstairs would have killed him if others hadn't supervened. 

Dr V said he wasn't suprised:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742

The likes of Chief Sup Harris and Dr Craig clearly had no problems believing SC was capable. 

I think it's gender stereotyping in believing only males can be aggressive, physical and violent.

The following is my opinion only and something I've only recently thought about but I'm wondering if the facial gsw's NB sustained impaired his balance, vision and hearing which may have caused him to stumble into the kitchen table and chairs. 

[Caroline]

The gsw's NB sustained initially upstairs would have killed him if others hadn't supervened. 

Dr V said he wasn't suprised:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=742

The likes of Chief Sup Harris and Dr Craig clearly had no problems believing SC was capable. 

I think it's gender stereotyping in believing only males can be aggressive, physical and violent.

The following is my opinion only and something I've only recently thought about but I'm wondering if the facial gsw's NB sustained impaired his balance, vision and hearing which may have caused him to stumble into the kitchen table and chairs.

I'm surprised. that the way Nevill was found, has never been looked at. I don't believe he ended up in that position bt accident. I have seen the real CS pictures of Nevill and the ITV drama reconstruction of his Nevill was found, was spot on. I have taken a still of the scene and will post when I get the chance.

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes, it was all done and dusted in 1986 when Jeremy Bamber was convicted of mass murder

There’s no need to Google “back spatter “ — proof of that was Sheila's back spatter in the silencer.  I think, though I’m not sure, one of the twins had back spatter in the silencer too: I shall check

As for fingerprints on the gun: if they’re hard to retrieve due to ‘bluing’ why did forensics bother looking for them, and how did they find one of Sheila’s and Jeremy’s on there?

It’s obvious that Jeremy pressed Sheila’s finger firmly against the gun in order to frame her: the jury realised that.  They also realised how very strange it was that only one of her prints were on there...

Jeremy had also covered himself by claiming he’d handled the gun just hours earlier...he thought some things through during his pre-planning, but not all. He obviously wiped/washed that gun clean prior to murdering Sheila, hence why as you rightly say — there was only one of his fingerprints on it when it should have been covered in them.

I’m slightly confused here: you’re contradicting yourself, Holly. On the one hand you’re saying ‘bluing’ prevents fingerprints from staying on the gun, then you say that as Jeremy had handled it that’s why one of his was found on the gun...

The silencer had no fingerprints on it because the family handled it carefully so as not to destroy and evidence. And the reason no prints were found on it was that Jeremy’s gloves would’ve wiped it clean and obviously had none of his on it due to the gloves he wore.

You still haven’t answered the other questions have you...

You haven’t explained why the silencer wasn’t next to Sheila’s body

Back spatter and drawback are totally different phenemenon.  The former is caused when blood from a gunshot wound travels back against the line of fire and is known as high impact (or velocity) back spatter.  The latter arise from a contact gunshot wound when the hot discharge gases which normally dissipate in the atmosphere are forced into the wound and travel back again where blood and tissue can deposit in/on barrel.

In this case none of the conditions present for either phenemenon to occur.

Back spatter is observed with large calibre firearms and high velocity ammo.

Drawback is observed also with large calibre firearms, high velocity ammo and head shots.  When it does present the blood contains tissue which didn't present in this case.  Moreover a silencer changes everything as instead of the hot discharge gases blasting into the wound they are cooled in the expansion chamber before being released slowly through a series of baffle plates.

It is possible to test whether the drawback phenemenon is possible with the rifle and ammo and this will form the basis of a third appeal.

[Holly Goodhead]

How would just one fingerprint suggest Sheila handled the gun “extensively”?

If anything, I’d say that suggests Jeremy Bamber pressed her finger against it...

It seems that the gun wasn’t “blued” either: had it been, the forensics would have said that was why there so few prints on it

And it also seems that Jeremy knew that too, which is another reason he wore gloves — and he also told Julie he was worried because “the hitman” — who Jeremy made out he’d hired — had lost a glove in the struggle with Nevill. He obviously retrieved it after killing Nevill, but it worried him nonetheless...

It’s also astonishing that NO blood or back spatter was inside the barrel, yet you claim the silencer wasn’t used.

But blood was deep inside the silencer. You know, the silencer that you suggest Sheila took downstairs after semi-paralysing herself with the first shot; looked for a carrier bag; washed the silencer under the tap; wrapped it in the carrier bag; walked across blood, broken glass and sugar; headed to the cupboard; bent down; tucked it away out of sight at the back of the cupboard; walked back upstairs; laid down near to June rather than the twins; decided to read a verse of the Bible as she lay with her head at an awkward angle and as her neck ballooned with blood; and then shot herself a second time.

And all that without one single drop of her blood anywhere in the house...

It's a fallacy that everything we touch leaves indelible  fingerprints.  It's dependant upon many factors.  In the case of firearms bluing is one factor.  It stands to reason if someone had minimal contact with the rifle eg simply picked it up to move it statistically they would be less likely to leave fingerprints on it than if they handled it extensively.  The fact the rifle contained one fingerprint from JB and SC suggests both handled it extensively.

The silencer underwent the same tests for for fingerprints and revealed none when we know DB and others handled it without any precautions.

[Holly Goodhead]

I've seen no such evidence, sorry. I've been repeatedly told it exists but it hasn't been produced afaik.

I have a wetsuit.  They're porous so what would be the point in wearing one to protect from back spatter which wouldn't present with the small calibre firearm and subsonic ammo anyway.

Yes you could stand in the shower in it but it would not remove all debris hence numerous options exist for washing them.

This theory emanated ftom RB who clearly had no idea about the conditions needed for back spatter and how wet suits work.  He probably didn't know the difference between a dry suit and a wet suit.  Dry suits being non porous. 

All the low level stuff about the windows, bike, wet suit  emanate from the relatives.

[Myster]

I'm surprised. that the way Nevill was found, has never been looked at. I don't believe he ended up in that position bt accident. I have seen the real CS pictures of Nevill and the ITV drama reconstruction of his Nevill was found, was spot on. I have taken a still of the scene and will post when I get the chance.

So how do you think Nevill finished up perched so precariously on the arm of that chair with head in scuttle, Caroline?

Whoever lifted and positioned him there must have been strong enough to do so, and can't have avoided getting some blood on themselves... not necessarily from the last four head shots, but from his earlier mouth and arm wounds.

[Holly Goodhead]

So how do you think Nevill finished up perched so precariously on the arm of that chair with head in scuttle, Caroline?

Whoever lifted and positioned him there must have been strong enough to do so, and can't have avoided getting some blood on themselves... not necessarily from the last four head shots, but from earlier his mouth and arm wounds.

I would think JB would struggle to lift NB let alone SC.

I recall a senior police officer commenting about the murder of car dealer John Marshall who was found murdered in the boot of his Range Rover that he thought two individuals were involved as it would take two to lift him.

Given there's much evidence SC was moved at soc NB may have been moved too prior to being photographed.  Or photos of before and after existed and when the investigation changed shape the before photos were destroyed.

I think Dr V said there was no corresponding marks on NB's head to support the idea his head fell in/on the coal scuttle by chance.

I think he was interfered with at soc by either police officers, Dr Craig or the man from the coroners office.  This explains the trousers and cushions placed on the floor too.

[Caroline]

So how do you think Nevill finished up perched so precariously on the arm of that chair with head in scuttle, Caroline?

Whoever lifted and positioned him there must have been strong enough to do so, and can't have avoided getting some blood on themselves... not necessarily from the last four head shots, but from his earlier mouth and arm wounds.

I think Bamber put him there - will post the pict from the drama in a sec. it would be almost impossible to end up in that position by accident!

[Myster]

I would think JB would struggle to lift NB let alone SC.

I recall a senior police officer commenting about the murder of car dealer John Marshall who was found murdered in the boot of his Range Rover that he thought two individuals were involved as it would take two to lift him.

Given there's much evidence SC was moved at soc NB may have been moved too prior to being photographed.  Or photos of before and after existed and when the investigation changed shape the before photos were destroyed.

I think Dr V said there was no corresponding marks on NB's head to support the idea his head fell in/on the coal scuttle by chance.

I think he was interfered with at soc by either police officers, Dr Craig or the man from the coroners office.  This explains the trousers and cushions placed on the floor too.

According to Vanezis, livor mortis was consistent with the position in which he was found, much earlier than when the TFU entered.

[Caroline]

I doubt Sheila could do this and I very much doubt he ended up like this by accident. I do stress that this is a still from the drama and NOT the actual CS photograph but having seen the original, the only difference I can see is that on the original, there is some clothing next to the coal scuttle soaking up the blood. But the position of the body/wounds etc. is EXACT!

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Caroline]

CAL's book says 'in his bedroom', not 'in his wardrobe' but she doesn't say where the information came from.

Sorry, I guess bedroom solves a point about the case and wardrobe doesn't (I wish there was a rolling eyes emoji!)

[Caroline]

I would think JB would struggle to lift NB let alone SC.

I recall a senior police officer commenting about the murder of car dealer John Marshall who was found murdered in the boot of his Range Rover that he thought two individuals were involved as it would take two to lift him.

Given there's much evidence SC was moved at soc NB may have been moved too prior to being photographed.  Or photos of before and after existed and when the investigation changed shape the before photos were destroyed.

I think Dr V said there was no corresponding marks on NB's head to support the idea his head fell in/on the coal scuttle by chance.

I think he was interfered with at soc by either police officers, Dr Craig or the man from the coroners office.  This explains the trousers and cushions placed on the floor too.

No, that;s not right and what is odd is that on the original photograph, the trousers on the floor are UNDER Nevill's leg, so they were placed there before he was.