would you leave your children alone like the mcanns did?? and if not why

[stephen25000]

I dont know where you get the 10 bottles of wine from?  This reminds me of Digital Spy forum, where Myths abounded.

All the talk on there was about them being at a bar 200 -300 metres away (or something like that), and on the Razzle, drinking 10 bottles of wine - in fact i think it was stretched to 14 on one occasion.

I am not about to look it up in the PJ files, but I think that the waiting staff said about 3 or 4 bottles of wine and they were not finished.  There is nothing unusual about someone having a 1/4 or 1/3 of a bottle, with a meal, over an hour and a half.  Nothing at all.  Most people would not really be affected by that amount.

Not quite.

On the night in question there were apparently3/4 bottles on the table, not fully consumed.

The '10' bottle is referring to other nights.

There was a claim somewhere of, on one night, about 13 bottles consumed, plus extras.

[sadie]

Would you leave 3 small children unguarded in a house/apartment/ anywhere per se, where it was unlocked, merely to go out and drink, and have irregular checks, affected and distracted by socializing ?

Once again stephen disinformation.

The Mccanns DID NOT go out merely to drink.  Why did you say that?  As you well know they went to have their meal in a restaurant that was only 50 metres away from the apartment and furthermore it was in the Garden to the apartments.

The only entrance that was unlocked was within their visibility, only 50 metres away.  May I respectfully suggest that you pace that distance out and see whether you could see and hear your distresed child calling.  I can tell you (even tho you might chose not to believe me) that my garden was that long and I could easily hear them, when chatting to a neighbour, if they called.

A Mother is tuned into the cries of her children

From photographs the porch to the patio was well lit by the street lamp outside

[gilet]

Ah, finally you are using the normal term for a bottle of wine.

But seriously, even if we accept your supposition that those checking the children had drunk a few glasses of wine, do you think they would be so incapable as not to be able to walk from the Tapas to the Apartment in under a minute. Do you not agree they may even have walked more quickly rather than more slowly?

I suggest you look up studies on the effects of alcohol on human metabolisms,  both physiological and psychological.

Then tell me this.

Would you leave 3 small children unguarded in a house/apartment/ anywhere per se, where it was unlocked, merely to go out and drink, and have irregular checks, affected and distracted by socializing ?

Why should I look up studies to understand a perfectly normal part of human behaviour, having a few glasses of wine? Your fixation on ethanol is very peculiar.

I have done that, out in the garden. And no my garden may not be as big as the area around the Tapas/Apartment but there are similarities in that I could see the patio doors/french windows which were open and it would have taken around 20 seconds to get from decking and summer house to the door, a whole 20 seconds less than that Tapas to the apartment.  And some of us did from time to time make checks on the very young children in the house and we did drink and...

You know that the McCanns have admitted their arrangement was wrong, that they would never consider it again but that at the time they felt it was safe. Yet you continue to hound them over it? Revealing and interesting!

[sadie]

I don't know where you get the 10 bottles of wine from?  This reminds me of Digital Spy forum, where Myths abounded.

All the talk on there was about them being at a bar 200 -300 metres away (or something like that), and on the Razzle, drinking 10 bottles of wine - in fact i think it was stretched to 14 on one occasion.

I am not about to look it up in the PJ files, but I think that the waiting staff said about 3 or 4 bottles of wine and they were not finished.  There is nothing unusual about someone having a 1/4 or 1/3 of a bottle, with a meal, over an hour and a half.  Nothing at all.  Most people would not really be affected by that amount.

Not quite.

On the night in question there were apparently3/4 bottles on the table, not fully consumed.

The '10' bottle is referring to other nights.

There was a claim somewhere of, on one night, about 13 bottles consumed, plus extras.

Yes, but who has claimed it Stephen?  What was the source of that claim?  I have given myself as the source for information further up the thread.  It is on my head if it is false info.  You chose to believe me a liar ... but only because you don't like the way the argument is going, and don't want accept facts.

Ya know Stephen, one poster on Digital Spy was claiming that money was being passed in brown paper envelopes by the Mccanns.  Scandalous it was, blatant lies. 

She eventually owned up to making it up. 

Seems you are believing myths formed by people of that type.

[debunker]

My post 42
The local police officers who were summoned to the complex after Mrs McCann realised Madeleine was missing said the group "seemed to be normal" and were not drunk, the Portuguese newspaper Correio da Manha said.

[John]

well in the mcann case they were not with the children they   were in a tapas bar approx  5 or  10 minutes walk was it not??    anything could happen to a 3 year old and 2 year olds in that little time  and clearly no matter what anyones view in this case something  did indeed happen to maddie.........  so i do  find that neglectful especally since she was heard crying and they still went out

Actually it was not approximately 5 or ten minutes walk as you posit.

There is actually a video of Martin Brunt walking from a table at the Tapas to the Apartment. It takes him 80 paces and he does it in 48 seconds.

It really behoves those wishing to comment on the case to get the facts right before they make pronouncements.

You appear to be another person who places themself in the position of being more knowledgeable than those directly involved with the case. Whilst the Attorney General was precise in his complete dismissal of charges against the McCanns for the conduct you deplore you still denigrate them for it. Interesting.

I find that amazing that it only takes around 48 secs or less than a minute to walk from the tapas bar to the apartment.   I agree about this forming the basis for yet another myth...I am up to 7 of them now and adding more all the time.   When I get an opportunity I will add them to the myth thread.

[stephen25000]

I don't know where you get the 10 bottles of wine from?  This reminds me of Digital Spy forum, where Myths abounded.

All the talk on there was about them being at a bar 200 -300 metres away (or something like that), and on the Razzle, drinking 10 bottles of wine - in fact i think it was stretched to 14 on one occasion.

I am not about to look it up in the PJ files, but I think that the waiting staff said about 3 or 4 bottles of wine and they were not finished.  There is nothing unusual about someone having a 1/4 or 1/3 of a bottle, with a meal, over an hour and a half.  Nothing at all.  Most people would not really be affected by that amount.

Not quite.

On the night in question there were apparently3/4 bottles on the table, not fully consumed.

The '10' bottle is referring to other nights.

There was a claim somewhere of, on one night, about 13 bottles consumed, plus extras.

Yes, but who has claimed it Stephen?  What was the source of that claim?  I have given myself as the source for information further up the thread.  It is on my head if it is false info.  You chose to believe me a liar ... but only because you don't like the way the argument is going, and don't want accept facts.

Ya know Stephen, one poster on Digital Spy was claiming that money was being passed in brown paper envelopes by the Mccanns.  Scandalous it was, blatant lies. 

She eventually owned up to making it up. 

Seems you are believing myths formed by people of that type.

You claim to have 'seen' something at first hand and constitutes proof.

I do that and I'm making it up.

That is not logic, that is pure drivel.

[stephen25000]

Ah, finally you are using the normal term for a bottle of wine.

But seriously, even if we accept your supposition that those checking the children had drunk a few glasses of wine, do you think they would be so incapable as not to be able to walk from the Tapas to the Apartment in under a minute. Do you not agree they may even have walked more quickly rather than more slowly?

I suggest you look up studies on the effects of alcohol on human metabolisms,  both physiological and psychological.

Then tell me this.

Would you leave 3 small children unguarded in a house/apartment/ anywhere per se, where it was unlocked, merely to go out and drink, and have irregular checks, affected and distracted by socializing ?

Why should I look up studies to understand a perfectly normal part of human behaviour, having a few glasses of wine? Your fixation on ethanol is very peculiar.

I have done that, out in the garden. And no my garden may not be as big as the area around the Tapas/Apartment but there are similarities in that I could see the patio doors/french windows which were open and it would have taken around 20 seconds to get from decking and summer house to the door, a whole 20 seconds less than that Tapas to the apartment.  And some of us did from time to time make checks on the very young children in the house and we did drink and...

You know that the McCanns have admitted their arrangement was wrong, that they would never consider it again but that at the time they felt it was safe. Yet you continue to hound them over it? Revealing and interesting!

Fixation with alcohol.

You have a very narrow view of the world.

Not everyone drinks alcohol, or didn't you know that.

Alcohol  has negative effects on human physiology. Fact.

As to childcare, perhaps you should read the guidelines on childcare......

One of the posters on Amazon put it quite succinctly last night.

'The reason why the guidance from the NSPCC states that babies and small children should never be left home alone is not something which is plucked out of thin air. Accidents happen to children every day. Most of those accidents happen in the home. And most of them happened because the children were not being properly supervised.'


Your views on the Mccanns have no logic, merely display excuses for indefensible behaviour.

[stephen25000]

well in the mcann case they were not with the children they   were in a tapas bar approx  5 or  10 minutes walk was it not??    anything could happen to a 3 year old and 2 year olds in that little time  and clearly no matter what anyones view in this case something  did indeed happen to maddie.........  so i do  find that neglectful especally since she was heard crying and they still went out

Actually it was not approximately 5 or ten minutes walk as you posit.

There is actually a video of Martin Brunt walking from a table at the Tapas to the Apartment. It takes him 80 paces and he does it in 48 seconds.

It really behoves those wishing to comment on the case to get the facts right before they make pronouncements.

You appear to be another person who places themself in the position of being more knowledgeable than those directly involved with the case. Whilst the Attorney General was precise in his complete dismissal of charges against the McCanns for the conduct you deplore you still denigrate them for it. Interesting.

I find that amazing that it only takes around 48 secs or less than a minute to walk from the tapas bar to the apartment.   I agree about this forming the basis for yet another myth...I am up to 7 of them now and adding more all the time.   When I get an opportunity I will add them to the myth thread.

Good stuff.   

Merely Martha that someone states they could walk in around 48 seconds, does not mean that happened.

Unfortunately. people do walk at different paces, for a wide variety of reasons.

Namely, it likewise means that applies to the Mccanns.

Finally, 'it wasn't like being in the back garden', they were in a Tapas bar, eating, drinking and socializing.

The Mccanns children were left in, they claim, in a locked/unlocked apartment.

The consequence of which led to the disappearance of Madeleine.

[stephen25000]

In any case, the speed at which the McCanns actually walked 80 metres that evening is kind of immaterial.  The fact is that there *could* have walked it in 48 seconds.  That is how close they were.  They were not a 5 minute or 10 minute walk away, they could easily have reached the apartment in under a minute if they so chose, even under the influence or 2-3 glasses of wine - unless you believe that they suffer from some other physical impairment that makes this quite impossible?

Could, does not mean they did.

It's speculation.

[debunker]

In any case, the speed at which the McCanns actually walked 80 metres that evening is kind of immaterial.  The fact is that there *could* have walked it in 48 seconds.  That is how close they were.  They were not a 5 minute or 10 minute walk away, they could easily have reached the apartment in under a minute if they so chose, even under the influence or 2-3 glasses of wine - unless you believe that they suffer from some other physical impairment that makes this quite impossible?

Could, does not mean they did.

It's speculation.

BUt almost all YOUR arguments are speculation and you expect people to accept it when you speculate.

[Cudge]

How long do you think it took them to walk 80 metres then Stephen?  Do you think 5-10 minutes is more realistic than 1 minute?  If so, why would you think that?

Because it suits his agenda no other reason

[Cudge]

I don't know where you get the 10 bottles of wine from?  This reminds me of Digital Spy forum, where Myths abounded.

All the talk on there was about them being at a bar 200 -300 metres away (or something like that), and on the Razzle, drinking 10 bottles of wine - in fact i think it was stretched to 14 on one occasion.

I am not about to look it up in the PJ files, but I think that the waiting staff said about 3 or 4 bottles of wine and they were not finished.  There is nothing unusual about someone having a 1/4 or 1/3 of a bottle, with a meal, over an hour and a half.  Nothing at all.  Most people would not really be affected by that amount.

Not quite.

On the night in question there were apparently3/4 bottles on the table, not fully consumed.

The '10' bottle is referring to other nights.

There was a claim somewhere of, on one night, about 13 bottles consumed, plus extras.

Yes, but who has claimed it Stephen?  What was the source of that claim?  I have given myself as the source for information further up the thread.  It is on my head if it is false info.  You chose to believe me a liar ... but only because you don't like the way the argument is going, and don't want accept facts.

Ya know Stephen, one poster on Digital Spy was claiming that money was being passed in brown paper envelopes by the Mccanns.  Scandalous it was, blatant lies. 

She eventually owned up to making it up. 

Seems you are believing myths formed by people of that type.

You claim to have 'seen' something at first hand and constitutes proof.

I do that and I'm making it up.

That is not logic, that is pure drivel.

Could you give us an example of where you have been in contact with or seen something that is relevant to this case first hand and then we can consider your evidence on its merits. The nearest I have been to anything tangible to this case case is a friends bar in Burgau so I am unable to comment on the distances between the Tapas Bar and 5A but see no reason not to accept the testimony of somebody who has.

[faithlilly]

@ bedbunker

As with my example, the case of the McCanns is so rare there probably is little precedent for what happened and therefore if taken to court the verdict would be uncertain.

[debunker]

@ bedbunker

As with my example, the case of the McCanns is so rare there probably is little precedent for what happened and therefore if taken to court the verdict would be uncertain.

IT would have to get to court first. Many cases of possible neglect passed by the CPS involve abandonment for long periods of time, or abandonment outside the domestic environment, or abandment following several other child care reforms.

I have worked in multi- agency child protection where we use Sweet and Maxwell as the "bible". This includes all the statute and case law on child protection issues. It has decision tables for referral for prosecution; the McCann case comes nowhere near UK requirements for charging. The McCanns have already dismissed any case of neglect based on current evidence.

http://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/Catalogue/ProductDetails.aspx?productid=93983&recordid=1839