Author Topic: Thoughts On The Case  (Read 83879 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #360 on: May 22, 2020, 12:39:05 PM »
Maybe the two who couldn’t make their minds up in Bamber’s case didn’t have the ‘mental capacitor’ to which you refer but the other 10 did ?
Maybe 10 wanted to watch Eastenders?  Who knows.
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Offline Nicholas

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #361 on: May 22, 2020, 12:39:14 PM »
One of the jury was asleep in the Bamber case so he couldn’t come to a decision as didn’t hear half the evidence!

How long did Bamber’s trial go on for, was it several days or weeks?

Say for example it went on for 4 days, that jury member would need to have been asleep for 2 of those 4 days for your argument to make sense and be believed

Did the jury member fall asleep for 10 mins, 20 mins, 2 hours ? Do you have an accurate time for how long they fell asleep?

Surely they didn’t sleep for days at a time - that would have been picked up on and addressed Daisy

Not hearing half the evidence is an exaggeration on your part is it not ?
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline APRIL

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #362 on: May 22, 2020, 12:40:26 PM »
Thank you Brancher for defending the point I am trying to get across.  One of the jury was asleep in the Bamber case so he couldn’t come to a decision as didn’t hear half the evidence!

My sister was on jury service once and their deliberations were going on late. A member came out with “oh I will just say he is guilty. I want to get home to watch EastEnders”

As juries are chosen randomly across the population there are those who do not have the mental capacity to understand the court process.  There should be some sort of test before they are allowed to go into court and make a life changing decision.


Yes, he may have been asleep. Droning, monotonous voices, warmth, post lunch lethargy, can all contribute. However, it may equally well be that it was his way of concentrating.

A lady of my acquaintance had a jury foreman who claimed that as it was obvious what the result was going to be, could they please get on with it as he'd told his wife he wouldn't be late home.

Offline Nicholas

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #363 on: May 22, 2020, 12:46:20 PM »
Just because someone is convicted doesn’t mean they are guilty. Juries make the wrong decisions for various reasons.  Sally Clarke, Angela Cannings, Victor Nealon, The Guildford Four and Birmingham Six were all convicted but TOTALLY INNOCENT.  I remember an “expert” in the Sally Clarke case when she was on trial for murdering her three children saying “one death is a tragedy, two is suspicious and three is murder”. The jury convicted on those powerful words.  The “expert “ was later struck off.

Wasn’t the ‘expert’ reinstated on appeal Daisy
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #364 on: May 22, 2020, 01:00:17 PM »
I stated that not everyone who is convicted is guilty.

And not everyone maintaining innocence is innocent Daisy

You recently posted on Gary Walkers case.

Don’t believe he’s innocent Daisy - he strikes me as another chancer like Bamber
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #365 on: May 22, 2020, 01:04:15 PM »
Just because someone is convicted doesn’t mean they are guilty. Juries make the wrong decisions for various reasons.  Sally Clarke, Angela Cannings, Victor Nealon, The Guildford Four and Birmingham Six were all convicted but TOTALLY INNOCENT. 

How do you know they were ‘totally innocent’ Daisy ?
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Caroline

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #366 on: May 22, 2020, 01:05:51 PM »
Read my post again.  I stated that not everyone who is convicted is guilty.  Why are you trying to promote arguments?

Youb saw the black side of Bamber Daisy first hand.

Offline Daisy

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #367 on: May 22, 2020, 01:12:25 PM »
How do you know they were ‘totally innocent’ Daisy ?

Might be something to do with the fact they had their convictions quashed!

Offline Nicholas

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #368 on: May 22, 2020, 01:13:15 PM »
And not everyone maintaining innocence is innocent Daisy

You recently posted on Gary Walkers case.

Don’t believe he’s innocent Daisy - he strikes me as another chancer like Bamber

Nor does a referral by the CCRC equate to innocence - even if a Judicial Review forced them to make a U-turn
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #369 on: May 22, 2020, 01:17:12 PM »
Might be something to do with the fact they had their convictions quashed!

The quashing of a conviction does not signify innocence Daisy. The Court of Appeal (CoA) don’t look at innocence or guilt they only look at the safety of a conviction.

How may convictions have the CoA overturned and declared the individual involved innocent ?

You’ll be hard pressed to find many such cases Daisy
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #370 on: May 22, 2020, 01:19:24 PM »
Youb saw the black side of Bamber Daisy first hand.

But she’s dismissed the ‘black side’ she witnessed first hand - he’s still innocent in her eyes
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Aunt Agatha

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #371 on: May 22, 2020, 01:19:50 PM »
[quote author=APRIL link=topic=11490.msg592668#msg592668 date=159013551
Auntie A, that really struck a chord with me. It was death which, 10 years ago, caused me to part from my adored partner and naturally, although we didn't live at the same address, my house was littered with his stuff. I moved home 6 years ago and it all came with me. I still have it, even his clothes. I could no more part with anything connected to him, than fly, so I wonder how you felt about getting rid of stuff which connected you with Jeremy.
[/quote]



Everybody's different and my relationship with Jeremy was not the same as yours and your partners.

I threw away 'paperwork'. It was old and all came fro Justice for All.  I threw away Roger Wilkes' Blood Relations transcript that I had received before it was published. To me, it wasn't Jeremy and I had no reason to keep them any longer. 

We all have to let go at some point.

I have however kept all his personal items which I cannot see me throwing away.  So there's a difference... I was not talking about personal possession as as it was not a personal possession that Ispy was interested in.

Therefore, in contradiction to myself, i never disposed of his personal letters either or his gifts.

Hope it clears that up.  I don't think I'm as ruthless as you think April.... Or I hope I'm not.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 01:26:37 PM by Aunt Agatha »

Offline APRIL

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #372 on: May 22, 2020, 01:24:21 PM »
[quote author=APRIL link=topic=11490.msg592668#msg592668 date=159013551
Auntie A, that really struck a chord with me. It was death which, 10 years ago, caused me to part from my adored partner and naturally, although we didn't live at the same address, my house was littered with his stuff. I moved home 6 years ago and it all came with me. I still have it, even his clothes. I could no more part with anything connected to him, than fly, so I wonder how you felt about getting rid of stuff which connected you with Jeremy.




Everybody's different and my relationship with Jeremy was not the same a# yours and your partners.

I threw away 'paperwork'. It was old and all came fro Justice for All.  I threw away Roger Wilkes' Blood Relations transcript I received before it was published, to me, it wasn't Jeremy.

I have however kept all his personal items which I cannot see me throwing away.  So there's a difference... I was not talking about personal possession as as it was not a personal possession that Ispy was interested in.

Hope it clears that up.  I don't think I'm as ruthless as you think April.... Or I hope I'm not.


It wasn't a judgement of you, Auntie A. Bravo for throwing out the superfluous.

Brancher

  • Guest
Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #373 on: May 22, 2020, 01:38:34 PM »
Thank you Brancher for defending the point I am trying to get across.  One of the jury was asleep in the Bamber case so he couldn’t come to a decision as didn’t hear half the evidence!

My sister was on jury service once and their deliberations were going on late. A member came out with “oh I will just say he is guilty. I want to get home to watch EastEnders”

As juries are chosen randomly across the population there are those who do not have the mental capacity to understand the court process.  There should be some sort of test before they are allowed to go into court and make a life changing decision.

I don't know about a juror falling asleep, but for me, the issue with the jury is that the decision was only by super-majority.  I don't like majority jury decisions, a reform brought in during the 1960s, I believe.  I think if a case is put to a jury, the decision to convict should be unanimous.

I think the decision to allow super-majority verdicts was the first nail in the coffin of juries.

In my view, the Bamber case can be seen as part of a gradual decline in English due process.  Not that I think Bamber is innocent, and I do think mass murder and child murder are deplorable actions, but if you can't prove a case against somebody, then you have to accept that the defendant must be acquitted, and then resort to other remedies, such as a civil action.  A fair system can't really work any other way. 

Due process can be likened to a 'fire wall'.  It does mean we have to let horrible people go free, but it also means that the chances of innocent people being locked up are minimised.  The latter is a much greater evil than the former, and if it is becomes routine/commonplace, we end up in arguments like this and the public (or at least, those who are bothered) start to lose confidence in justice.  How do we know we've got the right person?  If you even have to ask that question, there's something wrong.  Of course, the other side of it is that a fairer system means errors of impunity become common.  It's not a perfect world.  But maybe if it was easier to gain an acquittal, the police would then improve their techniques?  To an extent, that is exactly what has happened.

On the mental capacity question, obviously jurors must be compos mentis, but I assume you mean that jurors should have a certain level of intelligence.  I agree that jurors should be at least of average intelligence, but I wouldn't go along with the idea that we need high IQ/super-educated juries.  I think all jurors, whatever the intelligence level, are susceptible to biases and prejudices.  A high IQ juror will make errors, and may also lack common sense.  Everybody has their own prejudices, especially about how people should behave.  A high IQ juror has the same weaknesses that you see in systems that rely on bench trials, in that there is a lack of understanding towards the actions and experiences of somebody of significantly lower cognitive ability or different lifestyles/experiences.  This is exacerbated if the life experience of the high IQ person is narrow.  The same of course could apply the other way.  A lower IQ person may lack common-sense or have narrow experience, etc.  The solution is to select at random, subject to basic pre-qualifications, knowing that this brings some balance to the panel.

I think one of the reasons we have juries is because they bring common sense and life experience to the table.  One juror might say: 'Why did he do it that way?  That makes no sense!'  Another juror may then pipe up: 'No, it does make sense.  I've been in the same situation....', etc. 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 01:41:16 PM by Brancher »

Offline Nicholas

Re: Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #374 on: May 22, 2020, 01:41:05 PM »

I have however kept all his personal items which I cannot see me throwing away.  So there's a difference... I was not talking about personal possession as as it was not a personal possession that Ispy was interested in.


You haven’t though have you AA

You said you took his wetsuit to a charity shop
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation