Author Topic: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85  (Read 34102 times)

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Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #90 on: May 28, 2020, 07:17:21 AM »
Actually, I'm not sure you've got your facts right there.

My understanding of what actually happened is that there was confusion among the relatives, who each thought one of the others had reported the find to the police, when in fact nobody had.  It was only when Robert Boutflour attended at Whitham Police Station to make a general complaint and mentioned the silencer in passing that the police were alerted to the silencer's existence and then arranged to collect it.

My source for this is Colin Caffell's book.  Or perhaps he is mistaken?

There is also a question mark over why the Eatons considered it necessary to remove this evidence from Whitehouse Farm, instead of reporting it immediately to the police and asking them to attend the scene forthwith, which would have been the more proper thing to do.  Why didn't it happen that way?

We will have to trust that the forensic integrity of the evidence was maintained. 

Again, I must beg to differ.

Strictly speaking, it must be true that a bullet fires at the same speed whether the rifle is moderated/suppressed or not, but the velocity of the bullet can be affected by whether there is a moderator fitted.  That being said, the overall effect is probably neutral, or negligible one way or the other, so as a generalisation, what you're getting at is accurate.

Back spatter is not an inevitability and mostly does not happen; it is thought to occur normally under very specific circumstances.  Forward spatter is very common, though even that doesn't always occur as much depends on the situation, the weapon used and bullet velocity.  My understanding is that Holly is referring specifically to traces of back spatter within the gun barrel and moderator itself, as opposed to the general phenomenon of back spatter.  Also, while back spatter is, by definition, spatter of blood in a reverse direction to the line of firing, it does not always go in the exact opposite direction.

Holly isn't being silly.  She is raising good and important points.


It’s you who’s got it all wrong

There was no confusion between the relatives at all

They all went to WHF to do a search as Jeremy was flogging off sentimental valuable items prior to probate. I have the wills.

Whilst searching, and unlike the police who only did a basic search; who didn’t seal off the crime scene; destroyed evidence by burning it at Jeremy’s request and Taff’s orders, when looking in the cupboard THOROUGHLY they found the silencer tucked away in a box at the very back. It had been put there purposely in the hope it wouldn’t be spotted — which it wasn’t. At first.

That silencer was NEVER kept in that box. Ever. It was ALWAYS attached to the rifle, along with the scope.

Upon discovering it, one of them heat it carefully on the edges, realising it was the silencer and realising it was strange why it had been hidden, he also realised he shouldn’t touch it in case any evidence was on it.

They couldn’t leave it at WHF — for obvious reasons.

They put it in a clean bag and took it home, they immediately rang the police to tell them they’d found something they should look at. The officer said he would relay the message. For some reason Taff Jones either never read his messages, or the officer didn’t relay it to the correct team.

When Boutflours went there two days later, appalled at their sloppiness, it was THEN they told DS Jones, who immediately went to the Eatons.

DS Jones was unaware they’d found the silencer; he had no idea what they had.

It’s BS he was drunk — someone said previously he was, which is utter shit — he was in duty and hadn’t had any alcohol at all. He realised the significance and urgency if the find, so placed it carefully in a kitchen roll inner and secured it with tape. He then took it to the station. In the event, although the one grey hair was lost AFTER Jones delivered it to the station, his method of transporting it was excellent given the conditions. Forensics discover all the blood inside, including the red paint which was still on the outer.

Your understanding if ballistics and physics is dire.

Back spatter will almost always enter the silencer or barrel, providing one isn’t shooting from many yards away. Several of the gunshots on the bodies were CONTACT shots, which ALWAYS produce back spatter.

They know for a FACT the moderator was used, not just because it contained Sheila's blood and June & Nevill’s, but then FACT — and please try to understand this...it’s very simple — there was NO blood inside the barrel

I’m becoming tired of explaining things that some people can’t grasp.
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline The General

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2020, 07:39:30 AM »
Can someone remind me again, for the hard of thinking, why didn't Bamber remove the silencer from the scene? What's the theory behind that? Is it purely because it was common knowledge that there was one?
Subject Matter Expert - Hobos.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2020, 08:46:31 AM »
Can someone remind me again, for the hard of thinking, why didn't Bamber remove the silencer from the scene? What's the theory behind that? Is it purely because it was common knowledge that there was one?
Well, one I can think of is that the resale value of the gun will be more if the silencer comes with it.
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Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2020, 09:03:32 AM »
Can someone remind me again, for the hard of thinking, why didn't Bamber remove the silencer from the scene? What's the theory behind that? Is it purely because it was common knowledge that there was one?

You got it in one,

Well done.

Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline APRIL

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2020, 09:15:00 AM »
Can someone remind me again, for the hard of thinking, why didn't Bamber remove the silencer from the scene? What's the theory behind that? Is it purely because it was common knowledge that there was one?


I suspect so. It's absence would have been noted.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2020, 09:41:30 AM »

I suspect so. It's absence would have been noted.
If that was the case why didn't they go looking for it?  All the shooting was close-quarter work so there was no need for the telescopic sights.
If Jeremy was leaving the gun so Sheila could use it to kill the kids and then commit suicide there was a need to have the silencer off, for the gun is too long to commit suicide with it on.

So it seems to me that someone went and retrieved the gun from Seila, attached the silencer,  killed June and Nevill, then returned the silencer, and then finished Sheila off.

At least this scenario accounts for why there was a mixture of Nevill and June's blood in the silencer, and none of Sheila's.
But knowing where the rooms are, and where the silencer would be found, where the extra ammo would be and how to get out of the house leaving the windows and doors appearing locked suggests a lot of local knowledge.

To me, there needs to be a third person, someone like a contract killer, but someone familiar with the house.
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Offline The General

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2020, 09:57:49 AM »
You got it in one,

Well done.
Thanks. Your generosity knows no beginning.
That's a level of strategy that I thought was beyond the dim-witted Bamber?
Needs a bit of further unpacking imo.
Subject Matter Expert - Hobos.

Offline APRIL

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2020, 09:58:45 AM »
If that was the case why didn't they go looking for it?  All the shooting was close-quarter work so there was no need for the telescopic sights.
If Jeremy was leaving the gun so Sheila could use it to kill the kids and then commit suicide there was a need to have the silencer off, for the gun is too long to commit suicide with it on.

So it seems to me that someone went and retrieved the gun from Seila, attached the silencer,  killed June and Nevill, then returned the silencer, and then finished Sheila off.

At least this scenario accounts for why there was a mixture of Nevill and June's blood in the silencer, and none of Sheila's.
But knowing where the rooms are, and where the silencer would be found, where the extra ammo would be and how to get out of the house leaving the windows and doors appearing locked suggests a lot of local knowledge.

To me, there needs to be a third person, someone like a contract killer, but someone familiar with the house.



OR................Jeremy shoots them with the silencer on, maybe even firing the first shot into Sheila with it on before realizing she couldn't shoot herself with it on. He may have given it a cursory wipe before putting it away -we know Sheila wouldn't have bothered to hide it if she'd intended to kill herself- he may have hoped that by placing it at the back of the cupboard, A) it may not have been found for a long time, B) if it was found, because of it's placement, it would have been adjudged not to have been used.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2020, 10:09:23 AM »


OR................Jeremy shoots them with the silencer on, maybe even firing the first shot into Sheila with it on before realizing she couldn't shoot herself with it on. He may have given it a cursory wipe before putting it away -we know Sheila wouldn't have bothered to hide it if she'd intended to kill herself- he may have hoped that by placing it at the back of the cupboard, A) it may not have been found for a long time, B) if it was found, because of it's placement, it would have been adjudged not to have been used.
It is the difficulty of shooting someone upward from under their chin that makes me think the initial shot has to be a suicide shot rather than murder.
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2020, 10:12:53 AM »
It is the difficulty of shooting someone upward from under their chin that makes me think the initial shot has to be a suicide shot rather than murder.

Especially when both pathologists at trial described SC as partially upright when she sustained both gsw's.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2020, 10:14:50 AM »
Especially when both pathologists at trial described SC as partially upright when she sustained both gsw's.
Holly do you accept that Sheila's blood was not in the silencer?
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2020, 10:24:29 AM »
Holly do you accept that Sheila's blood was not in the silencer?

What's that got to do with your post I was replying to?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #102 on: May 28, 2020, 10:30:06 AM »
What's that got to do with your post I was replying to?
If she is sitting upright there is plenty of opportunity for the blood from her first wound to drip into the end of the silencer. 
So I want to know your understanding: "Holly do you accept that Sheila's blood was not in the silencer?"  Was the final shot to Sheila sitting up done with the silencer off?
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Offline mrswah

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Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2020, 10:56:07 AM »

I suspect so. It's absence would have been noted.


I don't disbelieve you, but by whom? It was Jeremy and Nevill who used that rifle, and Nevill was killed.


Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: First Forensic Examination Of The Silencer - 13th Aug '85
« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2020, 11:12:05 AM »
If she is sitting upright there is plenty of opportunity for the blood from her first wound to drip into the end of the silencer. 
So I want to know your understanding: "Holly do you accept that Sheila's blood was not in the silencer?"  Was the final shot to Sheila sitting up done with the silencer off?

I didn't say she was sitting upright.  I said partially upright.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?